AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > One Piece

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-07-25, 10:49   Link #241
paradox13
zzz
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to paradox13
Quote:
you cannot grasp the concept
The concept isn't hard.

It isn't rocket science or brain surgery..please don't act all high and mighty.

Seriously,, your only arguments are 'you haven't read my posts' and 'your western therefore you can't grasp the concept'..can't you at least come up with something new once in a while, especially when he has obviously been reading your posts and has raised legit arguments?
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
paradox13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-25, 11:13   Link #242
C.A.
Absolute Haruhist!
*Artist
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
The concept isn't hard.

It isn't rocket science or brain surgery..please don't act all high and mighty.

Seriously,, your only arguments are 'you haven't read my posts' and 'your western therefore you can't grasp the concept'..can't you at least come up with something new once in a while, especially when he has obviously been reading your posts and has raised legit arguments?
Who's acting high and mighty here, if you're the one who's saying the concept isn't hard.

You're the only one in the entire thread who's saying the concept isn't hard.

The fact is this concept is abstract and hard for people to grasp, not just Westerners. This thread has such a big discussion because this concept is hard to explain and understand.

And do I have to come up with 'new and fresh' ideas to point out what others are missing?

It takes someone even more 'high and mighty' to deem someone else the same.
__________________
No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
C.A. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-25, 11:23   Link #243
paradox13
zzz
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to paradox13
Quote:
The fact is this concept is abstract and hard for people to grasp, not just Westerners. This thread has such a big discussion because this concept is hard to explain and understand.
Its such a big discussion because there are so many people who can found holes in your logic, fallacies in your arguments and you refuse to answer any of them!

As a result, more and more people get frustrated. At the end of the day, we never get anywhere because you're too stubborn to even consider the possibility that you might be wrong.
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
paradox13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-25, 12:09   Link #244
DSDSSDWE
Blah
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
What does spirit mean? According to the dictionary:
I have no idea how this is a response to anything I've said?

Quote:
My links stated that Ki is something that exists outside of human control? Reread the 3rd link, In fact the entire link is telling us about controlling Ki. Ki can be controlled in many ways.
I didn't mean human control as in humans controlling it, I meant energy exists outside of our "influence". We have no control over whether it exists or not. As the first line already stated:
Quote:
Several centuries before the birth of Christ, the Chinese had already identified energy as the basic component of the universe.
Energy exists with or without us. We can control it, yes, but we didn't "create it". Get it? That's the whole point of my argument: you think energy or ki/chi/haki equals will, while, at best, will is only used to influence it. Will does not equal energy/ chi/ ki/ haki in real life nor in the OP universe.

Quote:
Honestly I doubt you actually read what I posted carefully. You have no idea what Ki is at all and you cannot grasp the concept.
Truthfully, the concept of ki is pretty easy to grasp, depending on which interpretation of ki you mean. And besides, this has little to do with its fictional application in OP universe, which is what we're talking about. Something else that should be easy to grasp, but you are somehow unable to, is the difference between something that is used to control something, and that something that is controlled. I wish you understand this already.
DSDSSDWE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-25, 12:52   Link #245
C.A.
Absolute Haruhist!
*Artist
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Its such a big discussion because there are so many people who can found holes in your logic, fallacies in your arguments and you refuse to answer any of them!

As a result, more and more people get frustrated. At the end of the day, we never get anywhere because you're too stubborn to even consider the possibility that you might be wrong.
Please tell me who are these people who are frustrated, because I can tell you there are also alot of people who agree with me or appreciate my points. In fact almost 1 whole block of my rep comes from this thread alone and I just got one more earlier in this very discussion. Its because there are alot of people who agree with me that's why I'm defending and sticking to my points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSDSSDWE View Post
I have no idea how this is a response to anything I've said?

I didn't mean human control as in humans controlling it, I meant energy exists outside of our "influence". We have no control over whether it exists or not. As the first line already stated:

Energy exists with or without us. We can control it, yes, but we didn't "create it". Get it? That's the whole point of my argument: you think energy or ki/chi/haki equals will, while, at best, will is only used to influence it. Will does not equal energy/ chi/ ki/ haki in real life nor in the OP universe.

Truthfully, the concept of ki is pretty easy to grasp, depending on which interpretation of ki you mean. And besides, this has little to do with its fictional application in OP universe, which is what we're talking about. Something else that should be easy to grasp, but you are somehow unable to, is the difference between something that is used to control something, and that something that is controlled. I wish you understand this already.
You have been telling me that Ki is not will, but the dictionary tells us that the spirit which is what Ki is, is will.

And why do we need to have control over its existance? And when did 'creating energy' ever came into the topic?

Does Ki exist? Of course it does. If it doesn't, what is yuuki(courage), honki(seriousness), genki(health) etc.? It is not something thats mystical and magical, it is just the way Asians view the emotions, mood and spirit of humans. If the concept is that easy to you, why can't you see that Ki does not control the mind or spirit or anything else. But instead Ki is the mind, spirit and will of the entire being.

When you are honki, you have a serious state of mind, when you have touki, you have a fighting spirit, the will to fight. When you have haki, you have an ambition, a will to reach for your goals and overcome all obstacles.

It is your belief and opinion that will is not equals to Ki and also that Ki is not equal in real life or in fiction that makes you disagree with me. I can't convince you if you do not want to believe in what its actual meanings are.

Courage, beauty, intelligence, happiness, sadness, Haki(ambition), it is the same words in real life or fiction. You can't seem to see that the words are the same in both real or fictional form, its only that in fiction it has greater effect.
__________________
No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
C.A. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-25, 13:16   Link #246
DSDSSDWE
Blah
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Its because there are alot of people who agree with me that's why I'm defending and sticking to my points.
You should defend and/or stick to your points because you think they make sense, not because many people are agreeing with them. Appeal to Popularity is a logical fallacy.

Quote:
You have been telling me that Ki is not will, but the dictionary tells us that the spirit which is what Ki is, is will.
Ehm, do you realize that "spirit" is just a word we made up to describe something that's not scientifically verifiable? Just like the concept of a "soul". Scientifically, they have no significance at all. I don't understand why we keep bringing in more terms and definitions when the focus is of will and the power of will as applicable in the OP universe? Can we go back to that?

Quote:
And why do we need to have control over its existance? And when did 'creating energy' ever came into the topic?
I'm pointing out to you that a person's will and the concept of energy as we know it, as described in your third link, are 2 completely different things.

Quote:
Does Ki exist? Of course it does. If it doesn't, what is yuuki(courage), honki(seriousness), genki(health) etc.? It is not something thats mystical and magical, it is just the way Asians view the emotions, mood and spirit of humans. If the concept is that easy to you, why can't you see that Ki does not control the mind or spirit or anything else. But instead Ki is the mind, spirit and will of the entire being.
Ki is just a term used to describe all kinds of stuff. In that sense, "Ki" exists. I don't see what this has to do with anything?

Quote:
When you are honki, you have a serious state of mind, when you have touki, you have a fighting spirit, the will to fight. When you have haki, you have an ambition, a will to reach for your goals and overcome all obstacles.

It is your belief and opinion that will is not equals to Ki and also that Ki is not equal in real life or in fiction that makes you disagree with me. I can't convince you if you do not want to believe in what its actual meanings are.
Its actual meanings differ depending on whether we view them from our reality or the reality of the OP universe. So I don't really care how its actual meanings are defined, because they are clearly applied differently in the OP universe.

Quote:
Courage, beauty, intelligence, happiness, sadness, Haki(ambition), it is the same words in real life or fiction. You can't seem to see that the words are the same in both real or fictional form, its only that in fiction it has greater effect.
Yes greater effect. In other words: it does something that goes beyond its meaning. Therefore, it's not the same thing anymore. Get it now? There is no acceptable definition of "will" out there that explains the happenings in the OP universe. As such, there is no reason to consider them to be the same thing.
DSDSSDWE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-25, 13:57   Link #247
C.A.
Absolute Haruhist!
*Artist
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSDSSDWE View Post
You should defend and/or stick to your points because you think they make sense, not because many people are agreeing with them. Appeal to Popularity is a logical fallacy.

Ehm, do you realize that "spirit" is just a word we made up to describe something that's not scientifically verifiable? Just like the concept of a "soul". Scientifically, they have no significance at all. I don't understand why we keep bringing in more terms and definitions when the focus is of will and the power of will as applicable in the OP universe? Can we go back to that?

I'm pointing out to you that a person's will and the concept of energy as we know it, as described in your third link, are 2 completely different things.

Ki is just a term used to describe all kinds of stuff. In that sense, "Ki" exists. I don't see what this has to do with anything?

Its actual meanings differ depending on whether we view them from our reality or the reality of the OP universe. So I don't really care how its actual meanings are defined, because they are clearly applied differently in the OP universe.

Yes greater effect. In other words: it does something that goes beyond its meaning. Therefore, it's not the same thing anymore. Get it now? There is no acceptable definition of "will" out there that explains the happenings in the OP universe. As such, there is no reason to consider them to be the same thing.
Let me tell you that my points are actually fruits of discussion with lots of people in this thread. Not just me, but there were many people who came up with similar theories and we compared with each other to further understand and come up with new points. In fact the word 'will' was brought into this topic by someone who summarised our discussions and from then on, 'will' has been used regularly used to describe Haki.

This theory is not mine, but a combination of definition, observations of past examples in other manga and collection of opinions from various people to form a united theory.

And you are bringing in science into this topic? Which is obviously a spiritual discussion and on top of that, a Shounen manga topic? You're telling me that 'soul' has no scientific significance, why are you even discussing in this thread in the first place?

What does Ki have to do with anything? Are you even discussing about Haki and Ki here?

And the way you view fiction is amazing, totally unique, I have no idea how you can relate and understand fiction if they do not consider to be similar to reality in any way to you.
__________________
No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
C.A. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-25, 14:32   Link #248
DSDSSDWE
Blah
 
Join Date: May 2008
Man, this discussion is really going all over the place. I should stop with going in this direction and focus back on the "will" part, but that wouldn't be nice. Ah well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
And you are bringing in science into this topic? Which is obviously a spiritual discussion
It is? Energy isn't spiritual. And I don't consider the notion of "will" to be a spiritual concept, either. When you go use a dictionary to point out that "spirit", which has no scientific relevance, is the same as "ki" (which btw is also another term people throw around for all kinds of stuff), which is thus the same as "will", why can't I point out that we've added more vague terms/definitions and that we've gone into the abstract realm of "making stuff up"? On the other hand, the notion of "will" isn't so freely redefined because that concept is pretty real and understood. And the way you've taken that concept and changed it in such a weird way to fit your view of the OP universe is something I find silly.

So "will" is "will". Let's focus on that instead of going "chi is will, but chi is also energy, and spirit and haki, and spirit is chi, and will and haki, and energy and blablabla". It adds nothing to the discussion other than making the concept of "will" unnecessarily vague in some silly attempt to describe what's happening in OP as "will".

Quote:
What does Ki have to do with anything? Are you even discussing about Haki and Ki here?
Actually, I'm discussing the concept of "will" and how your interpretation of "will" supposedly applied in the OP universe is nonsensical.

Quote:
And the way you view fiction is amazing, totally unique, I have no idea how you can relate and understand fiction if they do not consider to be similar to reality in any way to you.
Every fictional universe has its own logic/rules. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean you can "make up stuff" as you go. It doesn't work like that. There's got to be some kind of internal consistency. You applying the concept of "will" to what happens goes against the logic of the OP universe (and ours).
DSDSSDWE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-25, 15:53   Link #249
holypanl
Well Rounded Critic
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: In a class of my own.
Okay...question: why keep arguing back and forth when you people really have no need to keep arguing with C.A.? I mean: wow. It's been about at least three pages so far that people have been vigorously thrashing at what C.A. believes. Why not just draw your conclusions, and then...get on with life?

For example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
An infamous gangster that has been jailed for years but still remembered by people for his doings. He was known to have beaten several people to a bloody pulp before getting into jail, but since then he has already turned over a new leaf. He walks on the street trying to be friendly but people just turns silent wherever he goes, simply because they know he was a violent criminal.

No matter how tame a lion or a bear is, it is a wild animal and for that we are wary even if they are circus animals dressed in frilly costumes. You would have fear to approach them to take pictures even if they are chained and in cages.
--------------

In One Piece Haki is basically much the same, the amplification of fear. Though we've seen its effects with much more extreme results. Like Shanks making people fear him so much that they foam from their own fear. And Rayleigh demonstrating how you can spread fear to others but at the same time not to people who you are not hostile towards.

So Haki cutting the sky into two? No, its not their Haki, its just the pure power, the power of them clashing.

Haki flinching Logias? Plausible, if someone could perform an action or expression that can instill enough fear, Logias could literally solidfy in their tracks.
I disagree with the part about the criminal now trying to reintegrate into society's problem of being feared having to do with his own Ki being exercised as Haki. That, to my mind, is simply a result of his reputation.

The paragraph where C.A. attributes the Lion or Tiger's innate ability to be recognized as a threat as a manifestation of the animal's Haki is, also, to my mind, inaccurate. I think that Haki can only be exercised real-time by marshaling one's Ki.

E.g. 1.) I am at the zoo, and there is a lion prowling at the periphery of the cage, pretty much two or so yard away from me. It is an iron-bar cage. I can be attacked by the animal if I am too close.

- If I stay away from the bars, it is not because I am being affected by the animal's Haki. It's just that I am intelligent enough to know that the animal can harm me at a certain distance.

- But even if the animal were to be placed in a bullet-proof hard-glass, or flexi-glass cage, if the animal starts actively showing signs of aggression, (baring fangs, rearing up, hissing, growling, roaring, etc.) and I start to get afraid, then THAT is a result of the animal's Haki. The animal is actively expending its spiritual energy, Ki (also known in India as Chakra, and given many other names in many other spiritist religions; all of them are the same in that they are an innate source of spiritual energy that is focused in the area around the navel, and can be manipulated and expended in different forms), into the act of causing me to become intimidated. It is actively trying to exercise its will, or Haki on me.
------------ ------------- -------------- --------------

Now I could very well have come on the scene a LONG time ago, and started berating C.A. about what he said, and saying that he is wrong, and bla bla bla, but see, I couldn't care less. C.A. is not my mother, or my father. I don't need to seek his acceptance before I can understand that my own take on the issue may be the better, in SOME respects.

Instead of wasting my time, I just asked him for clarification on some parts of it before I went ahead and finalized my own theory. Regardless of where he may have gone wrong, C.A. contributed a pretty good foundation for you all to work on. Just take it, shape it, and get on with it. I mean: for about THREE PAGES you guys have been at each others' necks...does that make sense?
__________________
Rev. Niemöller, on Nazi Germany:

First they went for communists: and I didn't speak out, not being a communist;
Then they came for trade unionists, and I said naught because I wasn't a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews: and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew;

Then they came for me!
...and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Last edited by holypanl; 2009-07-25 at 17:22.
holypanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-25, 19:18   Link #250
DSDSSDWE
Blah
 
Join Date: May 2008
holypanl

It's not that I don't agree with what you say, but sometimes I can't help myself. If I see a person with a to me inaccurate viewpoint, on a subject that is of interest to me, then I want to confront him/her with it. It's a weakness

However, actively debating people can help improve your own interpretation and communication skills. So it's not a total waste of time. Keeps the mind sharp. Although probably not in this case/ on this topic.
DSDSSDWE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-25, 22:23   Link #251
C.A.
Absolute Haruhist!
*Artist
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 27
@holypanl, that simple reputation and knowledge of a threat is simply just what Haki really means. Which is why even paradox13 who keeps disagreeing with me on the complex theories can come up with the same view:
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13
覇気 (haki in Japanese, ba hey in Cantonese) is simply the 'force' felt through intimidation. Its not a complicated concept, though it is abstract. For example, if we were all sitting in a hospital, and a huge man with tatoos and a shaven head walks through the door, then we would possibly feel intimidated by him. Thats all 'haki' is, nothing more.
You feel threatened from a person's reputation, or how dangerous the person looks either by observation or memory. You feel the person or animal or objects Ki, in the case of a threatening and intimidating person gives out threatening or intimidating Ki, that's Haki.

So yes it can be said to be just so easy to understand. I've been telling people its the same in fiction and in real life. Why does Luffy have such a great Haki? Why do the Marines fear him? They fear his reputation, which to the Marines is his Haki, his dastardly deeds have made him an intimidating and threatening man.

Then you can look at Luffy's Haki in another point of view, the 'ambition' point of view. Luffy's dream of becoming the Pirate King gives him a powerful Haki, a powerful will, a will to dominate and overcome all. This powerful will brings his Nakama closer to him and makes his enemies fear him more.

I've also addressed before that Haki can be 'passive' or 'active'.

Passive: Having an intimidating presence(tattos/scars/spiky accessories) or reputation(terrorist/gangsterpro boxer).

Active: Actively threatening and intimidating others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSDSSDWE View Post
Man, this discussion is really going all over the place. I should stop with going in this direction and focus back on the "will" part, but that wouldn't be nice. Ah well...

It is? Energy isn't spiritual. And I don't consider the notion of "will" to be a spiritual concept, either. When you go use a dictionary to point out that "spirit", which has no scientific relevance, is the same as "ki" (which btw is also another term people throw around for all kinds of stuff), which is thus the same as "will", why can't I point out that we've added more vague terms/definitions and that we've gone into the abstract realm of "making stuff up"? On the other hand, the notion of "will" isn't so freely redefined because that concept is pretty real and understood. And the way you've taken that concept and changed it in such a weird way to fit your view of the OP universe is something I find silly.

So "will" is "will". Let's focus on that instead of going "chi is will, but chi is also energy, and spirit and haki, and spirit is chi, and will and haki, and energy and blablabla". It adds nothing to the discussion other than making the concept of "will" unnecessarily vague in some silly attempt to describe what's happening in OP as "will".

Actually, I'm discussing the concept of "will" and how your interpretation of "will" supposedly applied in the OP universe is nonsensical.

Every fictional universe has its own logic/rules. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean you can "make up stuff" as you go. It doesn't work like that. There's got to be some kind of internal consistency. You applying the concept of "will" to what happens goes against the logic of the OP universe (and ours).
If you haven't seen the emphasis of will and willpower in One Piece, I recommend you to reread the manga.

Are you new to manga or Shounen manga to be specific? Spiritual energy and sheer willpower that can overcome anything has always been around. And without even touching science.

Do you have some weird concept of what will is that is different from us? Apparently we have been discussing about will in this thread for a long time and have been sticking to it as Haki. You find it nonsensical but we don't.

I don't know what is 'will' to you, but to us its completely relevant to One Piece. Even in the story itself there's 'Will of D'.
__________________
No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
C.A. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-26, 06:25   Link #252
DSDSSDWE
Blah
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
If you haven't seen the emphasis of will and willpower in One Piece, I recommend you to reread the manga.
You're still confused. I didn't say the manga wasn't about will and willpower, but that kind of will is completely different from the kind of "will" you describe to make arrows strong enough to destroy rocks, or hit a rubberman and make it hurt. Your complete inability to differentiate between the "will" that we mean and know of and the term "will" you attribute to the special/magical effects in the OP universe is why we're still having this discussion.

Quote:
Do you have some weird concept of what will is that is different from us? Apparently we have been discussing about will in this thread for a long time and have been sticking to it as Haki. You find it nonsensical but we don't.
Weird concept of "will"? You think it's normal that just by strongly willing it, your arrows can suddenly become stronger, and Luffy can suddenly get hit hard even though he's made of rubber? It's never happened before in the manga until the Shabondy arc and suddenly it's just a matter of who has a strong/stronger "will"? You are surely joking?

I'm going to say this again: your way of applying "will" to make arrows stronger is silly. Your way of applying "will" to explain how Luffy got hit hard even though he's made of rubber and Kizaru's light can be hit/interrupted is equally silly. There is 0 evidence in the OP universe that supports your "stronger will" theory applied in this way. Because they, Margaret and Boa, talk about it like it's some special power, it is far more likely that it's similar to the Nen in HxH or the Chi as used in DB.

The other reason why your "strong will can do lots of stuff like make Logia DF users hittable by intimidating them" is silly because it would turn OP battles into silly fights where we always have to be wondering "well, clearly he was distracted or intimidated there, why didn't that hit do more damage? How is he still able to use his DF powers so effectively? Why can't he hit him?" The "will" thing can be completely made up and fix the battles like you've been making stuff up as you go about who has got stronger will in which situations. That makes for "unrealistic" outcomes where strength and tactics are second nature to someone getting a crazy power-up to destroy whatever is thrown at him just by "willing it strongly".

But anyway, I'm going to step out of this discussion now. I don't see this discussion going anywhere and as you've said before: nothing we'll say here matters until Oda explains Haki (in the manga). Until that time, all we're doing is just speculating.

Last edited by DSDSSDWE; 2009-07-26 at 06:35.
DSDSSDWE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-26, 10:15   Link #253
paradox13
zzz
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to paradox13
Quote:
@holypanl, that simple reputation and knowledge of a threat is simply just what Haki really means. Which is why even paradox13 who keeps disagreeing with me on the complex theories can come up with the same view:
Well, what I'm stating is merely the definition of the term, as I understand it in Chinese. I agree with you on the basic definition; thats what people use it for in real life (although its really not commonly used in everyday speech anyway), can't really argue about that.

Where I don't agree with you is:

Quote:
I'm going to say this again: your way of applying "will" to make arrows stronger is silly. Your way of applying "will" to explain how Luffy got hit hard even though he's made of rubber and Kizaru's light can be hit/interrupted is equally silly. There is 0 evidence in the OP universe that supports your "stronger will" theory applied in this way. Because they, Margaret and Boa, talk about it like it's some special power, it is far more likely that it's similar to the Nen in HxH or the Chi as used in DB.
This ^

Your theory is reasonable, well argued and plausible.

However, its still only just a theory. Please don't act like its anything more then that.
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
paradox13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-26, 11:26   Link #254
C.A.
Absolute Haruhist!
*Artist
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSDSSDWE
Weird concept of "will"? You think it's normal that just by strongly willing it, your arrows can suddenly become stronger, and Luffy can suddenly get hit hard even though he's made of rubber? It's never happened before in the manga until the Shabondy arc and suddenly it's just a matter of who has a strong/stronger "will"? You are surely joking?

I'm going to say this again: your way of applying "will" to make arrows stronger is silly. Your way of applying "will" to explain how Luffy got hit hard even though he's made of rubber and Kizaru's light can be hit/interrupted is equally silly. There is 0 evidence in the OP universe that supports your "stronger will" theory applied in this way. Because they, Margaret and Boa, talk about it like it's some special power, it is far more likely that it's similar to the Nen in HxH or the Chi as used in DB.

The other reason why your "strong will can do lots of stuff like make Logia DF users hittable by intimidating them" is silly because it would turn OP battles into silly fights where we always have to be wondering "well, clearly he was distracted or intimidated there, why didn't that hit do more damage? How is he still able to use his DF powers so effectively? Why can't he hit him?" The "will" thing can be completely made up and fix the battles like you've been making stuff up as you go about who has got stronger will in which situations. That makes for "unrealistic" outcomes where strength and tactics are second nature to someone getting a crazy power-up to destroy whatever is thrown at him just by "willing it strongly".
Kyudo, where your arrows carry your Ki, your spiritual energy. Ki and the how your state of mind even with the slightest imperfection or distraction can cause you to fail.

Even though the link starts from the middle, at the section on Kiai, please do read the entire link. Its only a book preview but it touches on points I've always been trying to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by From the book
Your arrows do not carry, because they do not reach far enough spiritually.
In Kyudo, traditional Japanese archery, they believe that the arrow can carry the spirit, the Ki of the archer.

The Haki arrows follow the same concept, the arrows carry the Amazon's Haki, they intention to hit and defeat the opponent. That intention is strong enough to allow the arrows to smash rocks.

In the chapter 'Pain', the author talks about how his doubts and distractions in his mind led to imperfections and failure as a result. His Ki is disturbed, imperfect that's why he cannot perform.

If your Ki overwhelms your opponents' Ki, you are disturbing or damaging his Ki, weakening his performance and this leaves him vulnerable to you. If you intimidate your opponent, you are sending your Haki towards them, if their Haki is weaker, their Ki will fall apart, making them vulnerable to you.

It doesn't matter if its Rubber or Logia. If you're hitting your opponent with Ki or Haki, you are not attacking his physical body, you are attacking him from his Ki, his spirit, from within him.

It is not just a physical battle, it is a battle of intentions, the wills of the fighters are clashing. And how do you know someone has a strong will? When he puts everything he has into the fight, he tries everything to defeat the opponent and refuses to lose. This is how someone shows that he has a strong will. 'Willing it strongly' is just wishful thinking and coming up with such an idea just shows that you do not understand how people put their wills to the test.

And like I've mentioned many times throughout this thread, whenever Haki is mentioned in the manga, in Japanese, its always just a normal verb or noun. The Amazons have never talked about Haki like it is a special power. The only time Haki was special was when they realised Luffy has Haoushoku Haki. It is special only because Haoushoku Haki is extremely rare, unlike normal Haki that everyone has.

It only sounds special to you because the manga translators choose to leave Haki untranslated, making it sound 'special'. But that's not their intention in the first place, they did not leave it untranslated to be special, they only leave it that way because there's no good English word that can describe it properly. Just like 'Nakama', its significance will be lost when translated into English.

The Japanese is a very spiritual culture and it has always been reflected in manga. If you cannot grasp spiritual concepts and cannot understand it, I can do nothing to help you.
__________________
No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
C.A. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-16, 13:13   Link #255
AddiKtioNn-BlaCk
Is Your Daddy & Its True
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In the Sky with the Birds
I was just thinking about Haki (The King's Disposition).... it said it was the Haki of the Chosen Ones. I like how that doesn't mean anything, because even though Roger had it, it wasn't unbeatable. And what I mean by "I like how that doesn't mean anything" is that I like how it doesn't guarantee domination of every opponent and so forth.
__________________



'̿ ̿ ̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\з=(•̪●)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿ '̿
Weed, there is nothing wrong with it.. Seriously what's so bad about it? Smoking weed and eating out your fridge and laughing at the simple things? Or getting in fights and causing injury and accidents. Beer is the destruction of this nation, Herb is the healer! Don't listen, make your own choices!
AddiKtioNn-BlaCk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-17, 00:45   Link #256
seaghyn16
Translator Level 4/10
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
When it comes to Haki...like in the last episode of One Piece, (413), I could think of only one thing when the "wave of energy" coursed through the stadium.

Spoiler for The Brother of Haki:
seaghyn16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-22, 08:46   Link #257
SMASHERJACKSON
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
just want to ask what do ppl think of the rokushiki skills? do some of them incorporate haki such as rokyogan (sai dai ri etc)?
SMASHERJACKSON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-22, 08:54   Link #258
C.A.
Absolute Haruhist!
*Artist
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMASHERJACKSON View Post
just want to ask what do ppl think of the rokushiki skills? do some of them incorporate haki such as rokyogan (sai dai ri etc)?
I believe the rokushiki skills are not based on Haki, but a more general form of Ki. Just like the Ki practiced by Shaolin monks and other martial artists.

They are very similar to what Shaolin monks can achieve but much more powerful, Tekkai(Iron Wall) for example, Shaolin monks have the exact same skill called 'Iron Body'. Also Shigan(Finger Gun), Shaolin monks can pierce through bricks with a single finger and they're also famous for their 2 finger 'handstands', the grandmaster of 1 finger handstand has passed away though.

The 'Ki' in this case is 'intention' and 'will', the intention to inflict damage. And Lucci's Rokuougan is the ultimate incarnation of the will to inflict damage. You can say it comes from Lucci's Sakki(killing intention), for he is known to be extremely violent and bloodthirsty. The result of the extreme intention to cause damage results in a Ki attack, the Rokuougan, which can hurt Luffy just like how Haki attacks affect him.
__________________
No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
C.A. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-07, 05:59   Link #259
Rawrz
Redbeard Has Blood Logia!
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Question about hakis and shameless bump of a dead thread!

So what happens when a haki fanboy hits magma,poison like harming logias with their so cool haki attacks? Does logia barrier just gets dissolves by itself or the hakiboy must pay the price right after the hit?

Also I really wonder what will become of Smoker and Aokiji if a hakiman grabs them when they are smoking/particle-ing around in Logia form.A scene worth seeing? Violence in One Piece? More 4Kids censorship?
Rawrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-07, 07:14   Link #260
BlackNhite
Best of both worlds
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A land far, far away... or very, very close, depends on where you live
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrz View Post
So what happens when a haki fanboy hits magma,poison like harming logias with their so cool haki attacks? Does logia barrier just gets dissolves by itself or the hakiboy must pay the price right after the hit?
Well, if it's a Logia user, he'd go back to being plain old John Mc Dickless so yes, even if said person could become poison or magma, the Haki user would be fine. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure kicking a lightsaber would have royally fucked over old man Rayleigh.
Someone like Magellan who coats himself in poison... that's a different story.

Quote:
Also I really wonder what will become of Smoker and Aokiji if a hakiman grabs them when they are smoking/particle-ing around in Logia form.A scene worth seeing? Violence in One Piece? More 4Kids censorship?
Imagine Nightcrawler going into his BAMPH cloud, Juggernaut throws a punch into the mass, and thusly Kurt is punted out on his ass. Probably the route Oda would take.
BlackNhite is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.