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Old 2009-08-15, 10:46   Link #221
4Tran
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Well, to each his own, I guess. I was very satisfied with the final novel "The End of the Line", which had Rick, Lisa, Minmay and others trapped in a parallel universe with the Invid queen, while Max and Miriya were trying to find out what happened to the SDF-1 and crew. It eventually ended with all of them returning to a rebuilt earth, which wasnīt dependent on Protoculture as an energy source anymore, while Minmay stayed behind with her lover in a small tranquil pocket universe, singing to the Invid queen. Sounds a bit strange, but it hung together pretty well, IMO.
All of that was way too much on the metaphysical side for my tastes; and I never thought that it worked very well together. In any case, it's all been retconned away by Shadow Chronicles.

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Unfortunately Robotech isn't exactly an English-dubbed Americanization (American localization) of Macross. I'd really be appreciative if it was that. Instead, Robotech is an attempt to create a whole new story from its different source material. Macross was the least affected, but it's still badly affected if we take into consideration the legal problems it encountered.
Arguably, Mospeada and Southern Cross benefitted greatly from being part of Robotech as they would have been as ignored as other early '80s shows like Dougram otherwise. SDF Macross benefitted in that it would only have been treated as an old show had it been released in R1 in the mid-'90s. Other than that though, it's not as if the Macross franchise is obscure, so it hurts more than helps.
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Old 2009-08-15, 17:34   Link #222
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All of that was way too much on the metaphysical side for my tastes; and I never thought that it worked very well together. In any case, it's all been retconned away by Shadow Chronicles.
Which is a shame, since the Shadow Chronicles were, uh, less than optimal, to use a kind description.
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Old 2009-08-15, 17:44   Link #223
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Now, now, someone's being overly kind to that piece of... ahem.
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Old 2009-08-15, 22:19   Link #224
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Which is a shame, since the Shadow Chronicles were, uh, less than optimal, to use a kind description.
BURN IN HELL, YOU DIRTY ROBOTECH LOVER!!!

Oh, *ahem* sorry 'bout that. It just slips out sometimes.

Yeah, Shadow Chronicles wasn't very good, was it? Before seeing it, my main question about it was, "Why bother?" After seeing it (I rented it from the comic shop/anime DVD rental place near me...no way I'd buy the damn thing), I was still wondering.

The way anime is presented in the west has changed completely from what it was in the '80s, leaving Robotech an interesting relic. Certainly, some people seem to prefer diluted, hacked-up anime to the pure stuff, but surely those people are in the minority...right?
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Old 2009-08-16, 03:21   Link #225
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BURN IN HELL, YOU DIRTY ROBOTECH LOVER!!!

Oh, *ahem* sorry 'bout that. It just slips out sometimes.
Hey, Iīm converted to Macross quite good, so no problem. I just acknowledge that when I only knew about Robotech, I loved that one quite fine, too.

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The way anime is presented in the west has changed completely from what it was in the '80s, leaving Robotech an interesting relic. Certainly, some people seem to prefer diluted, hacked-up anime to the pure stuff, but surely those people are in the minority...right?
Well, at least in the case of Macross / Robotech I guess it is that simply not enough people know about Macross, due to Harmony Gold interference.
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Old 2009-08-16, 03:38   Link #226
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Well, at least in the case of Macross / Robotech I guess it is that simply not enough people know about Macross, due to Harmony Gold interference.
Hmm...why more people don't know about Macross is a real good question, and I don't think the answer is as easy as all that.

I don't *think* Harmony Gold has ever really hid the origins of RT. The history of Macross was dealt with at length in Robotech Art 1, the Comico Comic Books mentioned something about it, and I think even the novels explained where the story came from (can't remember where, though...some kind of introduction or afterword or something like that). Not to mention that Robotech.com has a forum dedicated to the originals. (I remember joining the RT fan club when I was a kid, though, writing a long letter asking for more information about the original shows...later, in the mail, I got a letter from "Rick Hunter" and "Lisa Hayes" thanking me for joining the "RDF." I was pretty disappointed.)

Macross II and Macross Plus have been widely available in the West since the early-to-mid '90s, and all the other Macross stories have been discussed thoroughly in Anime magazines and blogs.

So why are there a number of people out there who don't know anything about Macross? Some of it may be people who liked it when they were kids, got out of it for a long time, and only recently have dipped their feet back into the fandom. Other than that, the only reasons I can think of are willful ignorance, excessive loyalty to the Robotech name, or just plain stupidity.

Harmony Gold may be ensuring that no new Macross reaches the west, but they've never hid the truth about RT from anyone.
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Old 2009-08-16, 03:57   Link #227
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Hmm...why more people don't know about Macross is a real good question, and I don't think the answer is as easy as all that.

I don't *think* Harmony Gold has ever really hid the origins of RT. The history of Macross was dealt with at length in Robotech Art 1, the Comico Comic Books mentioned something about it, and I think even the novels explained where the story came from (can't remember where, though...some kind of introduction or afterword or something like that). Not to mention that Robotech.com has a forum dedicated to the originals. (I remember joining the RT fan club when I was a kid, though, writing a long letter asking for more information about the original shows...later, in the mail, I got a letter from "Rick Hunter" and "Lisa Hayes" thanking me for joining the "RDF." I was pretty disappointed.)

Macross II and Macross Plus have been widely available in the West since the early-to-mid '90s, and all the other Macross stories have been discussed thoroughly in Anime magazines and blogs.

So why are there a number of people out there who don't know anything about Macross? Some of it may be people who liked it when they were kids, got out of it for a long time, and only recently have dipped their feet back into the fandom. Other than that, the only reasons I can think of are willful ignorance, excessive loyalty to the Robotech name, or just plain stupidity.

Harmony Gold may be ensuring that no new Macross reaches the west, but they've never hid the truth about RT from anyone.
Yet there is, I think, a definite difference between "knowing abstractly that there is an original version" and "having seen that originall version".

Itīs like with remakes of movies, like Pelham 123. If you havenīt seen the original version, you might hear "Ooooh, it was much better than the remake", but youīll never know if you canīt see it.

And Harmony Gold holding the Macross license hostage is ensuring that Americans at least will never see Macross ( or so they hope, I guess ).
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Old 2009-08-16, 04:06   Link #228
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Yet there is, I think, a definite difference between "knowing abstractly that there is an original version" and "having seen that originall version".

Itīs like with remakes of movies, like Pelham 123. If you havenīt seen the original version, you might hear "Ooooh, it was much better than the remake", but youīll never know if you canīt see it.

And Harmony Gold holding the Macross license hostage is ensuring that Americans at least will never see Macross ( or so they hope, I guess ).
That's true. I had ben DYING to see the original versions for so long that I sometimes forget that other people were never so fired up.

And RT was on national television, which exposed it to many people who would never have thought of picking up a VHS tape or DVD...

But every Macross series IS out there, on the internet, or on DVDs with varying subtitle quality. It's getting people to try it that's the problem. Frontier's definitely been drumming up a lot of interest, thankfully. Let's hope whatever comes next for Macross does the same.

(And it'd be nice to turn on the Sci-Fi channel, or Cartoon Network, or...hell, I dunno, IFC, maybe, and see DYRL sometime...wouldn't it?)
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Old 2009-08-16, 04:22   Link #229
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That's true. I had ben DYING to see the original versions for so long that I sometimes forget that other people were never so fired up.

And RT was on national television, which exposed it to many people who would never have thought of picking up a VHS tape or DVD...

But every Macross series IS out there, on the internet, or on DVDs with varying subtitle quality. It's getting people to try it that's the problem. Frontier's definitely been drumming up a lot of interest, thankfully. Let's hope whatever comes next for Macross does the same.

(And it'd be nice to turn on the Sci-Fi channel, or Cartoon Network, or...hell, I dunno, IFC, maybe, and see DYRL sometime...wouldn't it?)
Pretty much that. Itīd be nice to turn on these channels and see Macross Frontier, for that matter, but that wonīt happen either due to the licensing situation.
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Old 2009-08-16, 04:34   Link #230
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And Harmony Gold holding the Macross license hostage is ensuring that Americans at least will never see Macross ( or so they hope, I guess ).
How did they even have a right to that trademark?

AFAIK they only started using "The Macross Saga" brand after the fact. In the "pre-war" days, it was always "Robotech the First Generation", or simply Robotech (along with Robotech - Southern Cross and Robotech - The Next Generation).
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Old 2009-08-16, 09:37   Link #231
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Which is a shame, since the Shadow Chronicles were, uh, less than optimal, to use a kind description.
True enough. While the final product could have been a lot better, I feel that the creative decisions the creators made at the very start hampered their storytelling from being what it could have been.

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Yeah, Shadow Chronicles wasn't very good, was it? Before seeing it, my main question about it was, "Why bother?" After seeing it (I rented it from the comic shop/anime DVD rental place near me...no way I'd buy the damn thing), I was still wondering.
The point was obviously to reinvigorate their franchise and to use Shadow Chronicles as a stepping stone to more new material. That new material is now shelved because of the Robotech movie, but it may surface one of these days. The better question is whether Shadow Chronicles did a very good job of being that, and I'd have to admit that it didn't move the story in very interesting ways, but it's not totally irredeemable.

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The way anime is presented in the west has changed completely from what it was in the '80s, leaving Robotech an interesting relic. Certainly, some people seem to prefer diluted, hacked-up anime to the pure stuff, but surely those people are in the minority...right?
True enough, but to be fair, By Shadow Chronicles, Robotech no longer resembles any of its constitute anime. Though whether the final result is any good is open to question .

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How did they even have a right to that trademark?

AFAIK they only started using "The Macross Saga" brand after the fact. In the "pre-war" days, it was always "Robotech the First Generation", or simply Robotech (along with Robotech - Southern Cross and Robotech - The Next Generation).
Having one of the main ships bearing the name "Macross" probably confers enough reason for a trademark. It should also be noted that the Harmony Gold trademark wasn't claimed until the mid-'90s, and that this only exists in the U.S. and the UK.
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Old 2009-08-16, 11:49   Link #232
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Having one of the main ships bearing the name "Macross" probably confers enough reason for a trademark. It should also be noted that the Harmony Gold trademark wasn't claimed until the mid-'90s, and that this only exists in the U.S. and the UK.
That's the thing, the main ship was never called the Macross in Robotech, just the SDF-1. It only ever is used to refer to "Macross Island" (which is around for all of the first 3 episodes), the reconstructed city which is hardly mentioned by name, and Miss Macross.
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Old 2009-08-16, 11:53   Link #233
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That's the thing, the main ship was never called the Macross in Robotech, just SDF-1. It only ever is used to refer to "Macross Island" (which is around for all of the first 3 episodes), the reconstructed city which is hardly mentioned by name, and Miss Macross.
That's true, but the Comico comics (which started coming out soon after the TV series started) were using "The Macross Saga" as a title right from issue #2, so to say they didn't adopt it until later is a mistake.

Now, to be frank, "The Macross Saga' doesn't really make a whole lot of sense as a title..."The SDF-1 Saga" would've been more appropriate...
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Old 2009-08-16, 19:25   Link #234
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That's the thing, the main ship was never called the Macross in Robotech, just the SDF-1. It only ever is used to refer to "Macross Island" (which is around for all of the first 3 episodes), the reconstructed city which is hardly mentioned by name, and Miss Macross.
To be honest, I haven't watched Robotech, but I recall the name being used a lot more in the novels. Still, I did forget the biggest reason for the trademark - Harmony Gold has the distribution rights to SDF Macross itself, and they released the DVDs under this name.

I do wonder though whether the Macross section had been only known as the First Generation, or if the "Macross Saga" tag had been used as well. As far as I can tell, it seems to differ depending on the product: the novels only used the "First Generation" tag, while other products would use the Macross name (the Palladium RPG just called the main book "Macross").

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Now, to be frank, "The Macross Saga' doesn't really make a whole lot of sense as a title..."The SDF-1 Saga" would've been more appropriate...
Maybe, but Macross City itself did play a very large role in the series; a thematic point given further emphasis by the novels.
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:13   Link #235
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I do wonder though whether the Macross section had been only known as the First Generation, or if the "Macross Saga" tag had been used as well. As far as I can tell, it seems to differ depending on the product: the novels only used the "First Generation" tag, while other products would use the Macross name (the Palladium RPG just called the main book "Macross").
Was it? IIRC the core book (covering Macross) was just called "Robotech the Roleplaying Game".

Doesn't appear to be used in the rest of the sourcebooks either.
http://www.opusgames.com/toys/robotoys.html#Books
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:33   Link #236
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Was it? IIRC the core book (covering Macross) was just called "Robotech the Roleplaying Game".
It's not on the cover, but the title page says "BOOK ONE: MACROSS". I have a copy of this kicking around, so I'm reading right out of it . It happens to be from the 1988 printing, and it pointedly only says that "ROBOTECH" is trademarked as it's before Harmony Gold trademarked the "Macross" itself.
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:50   Link #237
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Maybe, but Macross City itself did play a very large role in the series; a thematic point given further emphasis by the novels.
Enh. I still say the novels muddy the waters more than they clarify them. All the stuff with the Thinking Caps and the expanded role of Dr. Lang, to say nothing of the "shapings" of the Protoculture, really kind of put me off.

(I also hated how they transparently tried to get around the problem of the episodic nature of Mospeada by starting each new episode mid-chapter, as though that made it more cohesive, but that's neither here nor there, really.)

I think the only thing I really liked about them were some of the Dune-style quotations at the beginning of each chapter. Especially turning Jamis Merin (sorry, I can't remember her Robotech name...the actress who lost to Minmay in the Miss Macross Contest) into a Shirley MacLaine-style New Ager.

...Which, as it turns out, is a far cry from who she's presented in the Macross book, "My Fair Minmay," where she'll sleep with company presidents to get what she wants, and can hold a mean grudge...
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Old 2009-08-17, 01:38   Link #238
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I thought it was hilarious they had a straight-faced rationalization for anime hairstyles and colours in the novel.
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Old 2009-08-17, 01:48   Link #239
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Enh. I still say the novels muddy the waters more than they clarify them. All the stuff with the Thinking Caps and the expanded role of Dr. Lang, to say nothing of the "shapings" of the Protoculture, really kind of put me off.
I'm no fan of the metaphysical elements either, but it doesn't really take away from the can-do attitude exemplified by Macross City and its inhabitants. It's also this same attitude that forms one of the thematic bases for the Macross Saga, and it's rather fitting as a title.

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I think the only thing I really liked about them were some of the Dune-style quotations at the beginning of each chapter. Especially turning Jamis Merin (sorry, I can't remember her Robotech name...the actress who lost to Minmay in the Miss Macross Contest) into a Shirley MacLaine-style New Ager.
I think that what underscores your point about what you like from the novels is the unspoken "as opposed to SDF Macross". This is a very valid point as even the novels aren't as good as the original anime. However, if you disregard the anime for the moment, what the Robotech novels accomplished was quite decent: it had one of the best love stories that I had come across (true then, and true now), it dealt with loss and hope and despair, it managed to link three disparate stories fairly decently together, and it was a relatively decent read back in the day.

On a slightly different note, I get the feeling that the novels might have done a slightly better job in telling the Mospeada story than Mospeada itself did. I suspect the same is true of Southern Cross, but I have yet to watch the anime.

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I thought it was hilarious they had a straight-faced rationalization for anime hairstyles and colours in the novel.
Yeah, what else could it possibly be other than a fashion statement .
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Old 2009-08-17, 02:16   Link #240
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I'm no fan of the metaphysical elements either, but it doesn't really take away from the can-do attitude exemplified by Macross City and its inhabitants. It's also this same attitude that forms one of the thematic bases for the Macross Saga, and it's rather fitting as a title.


I think that what underscores your point about what you like from the novels is the unspoken "as opposed to SDF Macross". This is a very valid point as even the novels aren't as good as the original anime. However, if you disregard the anime for the moment, what the Robotech novels accomplished was quite decent: it had one of the best love stories that I had come across (true then, and true now), it dealt with loss and hope and despair, it managed to link three disparate stories fairly decently together, and it was a relatively decent read back in the day.
That may be true. I've never been able to think of the books purely as books, divorced from the series. Since I was a lit major, I doubt I'd approve of the novels these days (my tastes run more towards post WWI European Modernists, although I still read SF and fantasy on occasion...and I'm currently deeply in love with Thomas Pynchon's latest novel), but as storytelling goes, there's a lot worse out there.

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On a slightly different note, I get the feeling that the novels might have done a slightly better job in telling the Mospeada story than Mospeada itself did. I suspect the same is true of Southern Cross, but I have yet to watch the anime.
I remember finding the Mospeada books to be quite dull (I was also annoyed that the books killed Yellow...offscreen, no less). The Masters Saga was a mess in the cartoon, and IIRC, the books cleaned that mess up a bit, but it still didn't make a whole lot of sense.

I haven't watched the original Southern Cross yet, but I've heard that its better than its Robotech version, although it's still not supposed to be very good.

(Tangentially, I think Mospeada probably benefitted the most from its inclusion in Robotech, as it has a small but devoted following outside Japan. Southern Cross, however, seems to have fallen by the wayside in both its Japanese and American incarnations. I think I've come across only two people who are big fans of the original show, and maybe two who like the Masters Saga better than Macross...and one of those is Doug Bendo, who's just crazy.)
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