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Old 2009-08-16, 18:17   Link #1261
Midonin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Once again, the tried and true formulas are used. Very rarely do you see the 4th wall broken. -sigh-
You've got your terminology mixed up. Straying from story patterns and acknowledging one's fictionality are very different concepts that really have very little to do with each other.

A story can do the unusual while remaining fully unaware that it's fictional, while something that's marvelously aware of its own fictional nature can still follow a traditional line of storytelling.
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Old 2009-08-16, 18:22   Link #1262
Foreshadow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Why, oh why, can't I predict lottery numbers and winning horses at the track, like I can predict anime?
I know! You think one is going to happen and the other does!

Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
I said this long time ago, Fiance and Fiancee VERY VERY VERY VERY rarely end together in this type of anime. The forced engagement is used mostly as an obstacle for the couples to overcome and end together. The only place where forced engagements are used a lot to join couples is in Shoujo anime.
That might be where I got the idea of the Engagement to be positive then, Either way I hope it's used as something to have the characters mature and be true to their feelings.


No really I seem to watch this Anime when I'm most Volatile.
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Old 2009-08-16, 18:23   Link #1263
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Once again, the tried and true formulas are used. Very rarely do you see the 4th wall broken. -sigh-
I said this long time ago, Fiance and Fiancee VERY VERY VERY VERY rarely end together in this type of anime. The forced engagement is used mostly as an obstacle for the couples to overcome and end together. The only place where forced engagements are used a lot to join couples is in Shoujo anime.
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Old 2009-08-16, 18:48   Link #1264
zato_1one
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
The forced engagement is used mostly as an obstacle for the couples to overcome and end together.
But the bad thing is that it can't even be called an obstacle in this case. It simple doesn't mean anything. No one really care about it.
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Old 2009-08-16, 18:54   Link #1265
Sinestra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
But the bad thing is that it can't even be called an obstacle in this case. It simple doesn't mean anything. No one really care about it.
I agree it never seemed like it was obstacle at all, it never had a chance to become one. I know that after Teppei and Sylvia agreed to take things slow i thought the engadgment would be a stepping stone for them to get closer instead like others said it was used in the opposite way.

Manji Midou LMAO i might actually support that if it made me laugh hard enough which it already did
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Old 2009-08-16, 19:01   Link #1266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
You've got your terminology mixed up. Straying from story patterns and acknowledging one's fictionality are very different concepts that really have very little to do with each other.

A story can do the unusual while remaining fully unaware that it's fictional, while something that's marvelously aware of its own fictional nature can still follow a traditional line of storytelling.
No, I do not have my terminology mixed up. I know exactly what I'm talking about, as everyone else in this thread but you.
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Old 2009-08-16, 19:08   Link #1267
Midonin
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"Breaking the fourth wall" does not mean "not following the usual story pattern". It means "when a work calls attention to the fact that itself is fiction by acknowledging the audience". None of the characters in Princess Lover are aware they're in an anime or that there's an audience watching them.
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Old 2009-08-16, 19:30   Link #1268
OceanBlue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
No, I do not have my terminology mixed up. I know exactly what I'm talking about, as everyone else in this thread but you.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think breaking the fourth wall is?
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Old 2009-08-16, 19:31   Link #1269
kujoe
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The '4th wall' is originally a term associated with the theatre. It's the imaginary wall that separates what's happening on the stage from the audience. When a character is aware of the audience and starts talking to them directly as if they're part of the story themselves, that's "breaking the 4th wall."

The idea is the same when it comes to television, except that the 4th wall exists between the show and the viewers.
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Old 2009-08-16, 19:48   Link #1270
Major1138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
The '4th wall' is originally a term associated with the theatre. It's the imaginary wall that separates what's happening on the stage from the audience. When a character is aware of the audience and starts talking to them directly as if they're part of the story themselves, that's "breaking the 4th wall."

The idea is the same when it comes to television, except that the 4th wall exists between the show and the viewers.
Exactly - Hayate no Gotoku! is a show that regularly breaks the 4th wall. Everyone is well aware they're in a fictional show and frequently comment on it. Unless I've missed something, no one on Princess Lover has done anything like that.
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:00   Link #1271
Foreshadow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major1138 View Post
Exactly - Hayate no Gotoku! is a show that regularly breaks the 4th wall. Everyone is well aware they're in a fictional show and frequently comment on it. Unless I've missed something, no one on Princess Lover has done anything like that.
Episode 6 Breaks the 4th wall a couple of times when Nezu talks to the Viewers.
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:02   Link #1272
Midonin
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And to bring this back to the post that started this conversation, the fact that Charlotte will likely be the girl Teppei chooses in the end has absoloutely nothing to do with the fourth wall and its breaking thereof.
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:02   Link #1273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major1138 View Post
Exactly - Hayate no Gotoku! is a show that regularly breaks the 4th wall. Everyone is well aware they're in a fictional show and frequently comment on it. Unless I've missed something, no one on Princess Lover has done anything like that.
From what i remember no character has acknowledge or hinted they are aware they and the story are a piece of fiction nor do i remember any scenes where any of the character has spoken directly too the audience.
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:19   Link #1274
Justin Kim
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If your not satisfied with whom Teppei is going to end up with. I say, learn some Japanese and then buy the Visual Novel, and play it to get different routes.
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:20   Link #1275
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
From what i remember no character has acknowledge or hinted they are aware they and the story are a piece of fiction nor do i remember any scenes where any of the character has spoken directly too the audience.
Ehh I did get the terminology a bit screwed up on that one but I was being metaphoric and the lack of sleep lately makes me slip up sometimes. Think I'm going to have to start considering sleeping pills.

This whole fiance thing is laughable. It should have been obvious the end of the first episode when we find out that Sylvia was Teppei's fiance, that it wasn't going to happen. And it should be obvious when we find out about Charlotte's fiance, that it wasn't going to happen. I shall explain.

There are two formulas revolving around fiances in anime.

Fiance situation 1)

Guy finds out his family has planned for him to marry a friend of the family's daughter(slight variances of relatonships but the point is made). At this stage of the story(which is usually 1-2 episodes in), he has not established a relationship with another female nor has he shown much interest in other females. Majority of story focuses on her trying to win his love and affection so that he will accept her and they can live happily ever after. 90% success rate that she will.

Fiance situation 2)

Guy meets girl and has an attraction to her. Then finds out she/he has a fiance. Much anguish and drama goes on during course of series as they struggle to develop their feelings for each other, while trying to a) not distance their family, and b) not hurt the feelings of said fiance. Eventually love conquers all and they marry each other and the fiances go find someone else. 90% success rate or greater.

As much as I love Sylvia's character, and though I like Charlotte's character, this formula is boring and predictable and very over-used in anime. When I said 4th wall I was being tongue in cheek with metaphors and meaning I didn't want them to re-use the same formulas I've seen time and time again over the past 20+ years. I know what 4th wall means I just was bleh when I wrote the post and should have clarified more.

This will be a Charlotte ending with everyone else vowing to not give up, unless they just have the two get married right at the end(which has happened too).

When I work on my different novels, I often think about what seems overly predictable to readers as they go through the story, and try and throw them a curveball, that though can be seen in advance with enough reading into the signs, is not so transparent until it happens. Too bad I can never sit down and finish these stories as I get 1/2-3/4 done then my mind comes up with another story and I switch to that one. -sigh-
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:39   Link #1276
Sinestra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post

This will be a Charlotte ending with everyone else vowing to not give up, unless they just have the two get married right at the end(which has happened too).

When I work on my different novels, I often think about what seems overly predictable to readers as they go through the story, and try and throw them a curveball, that though can be seen in advance with enough reading into the signs, is not so transparent until it happens. Too bad I can never sit down and finish these stories as I get 1/2-3/4 done then my mind comes up with another story and I switch to that one. -sigh-

Actually this seems plausible i dont think we will see them get married at the end. Maybe we will see them acknowledge each others feelings. Also, there is a possibility that life will just continue onward at the school. That assuming that yes it is a Charlotte ending i thin it will be quick and then over. I dont think we are going to get anytime spent on their relationship unless they do some type of time skip which would piss me off.


you should really try to finish some of them man and let some people read them. My mind does that as well i usually have 3 to 4 projects im working on 1 of them is always for work but i do know how it feels for your mind to work faster than you do lol.
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Old 2009-08-16, 22:29   Link #1277
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Actually this seems plausible i dont think we will see them get married at the end. Maybe we will see them acknowledge each others feelings. Also, there is a possibility that life will just continue onward at the school. That assuming that yes it is a Charlotte ending i thin it will be quick and then over. I dont think we are going to get anytime spent on their relationship unless they do some type of time skip which would piss me off.


you should really try to finish some of them man and let some people read them. My mind does that as well i usually have 3 to 4 projects im working on 1 of them is always for work but i do know how it feels for your mind to work faster than you do lol.
My mind is a mess. Think of an office with filing cabinets full of papers with the drawers all pulled out and the papers sticking out. Very frustrating, and I have over 50 different .txt files on my computer of outlines, character profiles, etc for different stories from the past 15 years. Yes some files have been transferred from HD and computer since 1994 when I got my first 486 SX33 and Windows 3.1 We won't even talk of the stacks of notebooks with handwritten stories sitting in boxes in my closet..... Maybe it's something I'll finish when I retire! ha ha!

I've been working on one story since 2001 and has gotten as big as 3 novels worth, in terms of story length(though it's only 1/2 finished at the moment at 350 pages). It has gone through many revisions as I come up with new twists and turns as I've gotten older and more experienced(due to reading and movie/series watching). I'm a little bit afraid to finish it though, as the main character has the worst happen to him time and time again, and I wonder if I'm a bit of a masochist as I keep having events and circumstances in the story break him down piece by piece with no happy ending in sight. It's the only story I've done that with and it's been troubling to me that I would do such a thing as my main characters have never been bad or evil people.

I'm currently working on a shorter story around 150 pages that I hope to actually finish this fall. I'll send a rough draft to you if I think it will survive critiquing.

/hijack
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Old 2009-08-17, 01:23   Link #1278
khryoleoz
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Let me break the 7th wall and interrupt the discussion a bit for some general remarks. I didn't think that I'd like this show. Originally I was looking forward to two shows this season but earlier in the spring my interest in anime had started to wane for the very first time in 10 years. On a whim, or maybe out of mild curiosity I checked this one out. I didn't expect to like it or anything but surprisingly I do like it. I guess I've got one other summer program to follow along with Haruhi renewal.
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Old 2009-08-17, 03:21   Link #1279
cheesie
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Harem prediction odds

Sylvia still has one more trump card left to go (and a very large one at that), and depending on whether the anime chooses to use it, it might actually cut all of Charlotte's winner flags with a swoop.

There are two opportunities to play that card : the next two episodes, or if they're saving Sylvia's arc as the big finale of the series.

The first half of the series has just ended; it's at this point here where they start weeding out the Red Herrings. As the second half of the series is proceeding, Charlotte just has to be extra cautious as...

Spoiler for Canvas 2/Shuffle dissection:


Right now, I really could see it going either way, maybe slightly leaning more towards Charlotte. But if the anime is going towards one of the directions I see it going, and if Sylvia plays her cards right, then there will be no doubt she'll deliver an equivalent of a Royal Flush over Charlotte's Full House in the very end.
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Old 2009-08-17, 04:21   Link #1280
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesie View Post
Sylvia still has one more trump card left to go (and a very large one at that), and depending on whether the anime chooses to use it, it might actually cut all of Charlotte's winner flags with a swoop.

There are two opportunities to play that card : the next two episodes, or if they're saving Sylvia's arc as the big finale of the series.

The first half of the series has just ended; it's at this point here where they start weeding out the Red Herrings. As the second half of the series is proceeding, Charlotte just has to be extra cautious as...

Spoiler for Canvas 2/Shuffle dissection:


Right now, I really could see it going either way, maybe slightly leaning more towards Charlotte. But if the anime is going towards one of the directions I see it going, and if Sylvia plays her cards right, then there will be no doubt she'll deliver an equivalent of a Royal Flush over Charlotte's Full House in the very end.

You mentioned two of the most famous(or infamous) anime that had a surprising ending.

Spoiler for Canvas 2/Shuffle fiascos:


I hope that if they plan to make Sylvia win, that they give the relationship some proper development.
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