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Old 2009-08-16, 22:14   Link #381
marvelB
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I'm actually kinda glad that the old subject about the comparison between Ace's strength and the rest of the commanders came up. Again, I don't really like talking about how "character Y is stronger/weaker than character Z", but even before this storyline I always sorta had the feeling that there may have been commanders outside of the first 4 divisions who may have possibly had an edge over ol' fire-fist, due to their experience. Actually, it might even be the case where there may not be an outright "strongest" commander. They all seem to have pretty unique abilities that make them stand out in their own right (and on that note, I'm still pretty eager to see the dude with the top hat and the guy with the chain chomp-like weapon in action....). This is actually the same way I feel about the Shichibukai and marine admirals, but that still doesn't stop countless others from arguing about who amongst those guys is the strongest, anyway.....




Anyways, since the arguments that tend to spawn from these breaks seemed to have cooled off, I speculate that we may actually see some action from Akainu next chapter (I'm still crossing my fingers for the miniscule chance that he's a Zoan.....). And yeah, I definitely agree that Magellan needs to get his big behind to Marineford to lend some support in this war. The way I see it, a guy who nearly offed Blackbeard's entire crew in one stroke can sure as hell hold his own against some New World pirates. And then we can finally bear witness to the final showdown between him and Luffy.......



....Oh, and speaking of the NW pirates, I hope we get to see Doma and Makugai in action this upcoming chapter! The only NW captain we saw this chapter was that "Spider Squad" dude or whatever his name was. We also need confirmation on whether or not that one old lady is Lola's mom......
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Old 2009-08-16, 22:57   Link #382
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(I'm still crossing my fingers for the miniscule chance that he's a Zoan.....)
SO Whats so good about him being a zoan?
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:31   Link #383
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^I more or less want to see a Zoan that's fully capable of kicking a Logia's ass, to put things bluntly. And as I mentioned in the Zoan thread, the introduction of both Ancient and Awakened-type Zoans actually makes that particular DF class a lot more diverse than they initially seemed. Remember how the Awakned guardians from Impel Down were able to quickly recover from the beatdown they received from Luffy and the 2 Shichibukai? Now imagine an opponent with that type of endurance, but much stronger and intelligent. It really makes me wonder if Luffy would have stood a chance against Rob Lucci at Enies Lobby if HE turned out to be an Awakened Zoan........
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Old 2009-08-17, 01:00   Link #384
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It really makes me wonder if Luffy would have stood a chance against Rob Lucci at Enies Lobby if HE turned out to be an Awakened Zoan........
Not sure if an Awakened Zoan would have been able to learn Rokushiki tbh.

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^I more or less want to see a Zoan that's fully capable of kicking a Logia's ass
Thats like saying you want to see a crossbowman that's capable of kicking a sniper's ass, or something equally ridiculous.
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Old 2009-08-17, 06:48   Link #385
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Oh geeze, another idiot.

At least try to read the Zoan discussions in this very same thread if nothing else, pleease?
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Old 2009-08-17, 14:19   Link #386
cheese4u
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
You make an excellent point here. Many people do the same thing with characters like Crocodile and Moria. They believe that since they lost they are no longer up to par with the rest of their peers (other warlords) who have yet to lose. It's the mentality of subsequent villains always being stronger than the ones that preceded them, which is simply not true all the time in this manga.
Well not to reopen old wounds, but I kinda disagree with the Moria and Crocodile not being weaker thing. I'm sure there both much stronger now, and they're definitely gonna be able to hold their own in the upcoming battle, but as far as being in the upper class of pirates, I'm not too sure about that. IMO they're both around Luffy's level, which is not the upper class.

I do see where your coming from with Moria, but I don't see much of a case for Crocodile, considering he lost to Luffy back when his bounty was only 30 million and he didn't have any gears. Don't get me wrong, I'm aware he beat Luffy twice before losing that third time, and I personally believe his strength was way stronger than 81 million and even the projected 162 million the navy said he would've been worth. Not to mention given all the time he's spent in prison being tortured he's probably much tougher now. (and I'm looking for him to do big things in the upcoming fight) But at the time of his defeat I believe he was one of the lessers if not the least of the shichibukai

As for Moria, we didn't see much of what he can do, but based on what I did see, I'd still say that Luffy could've beat him. If you look back at the fight the only real problem Luffy had with Moria was the fact that he couldn't hit him, and the one time he did hit him (pre-Oz) he hurt him, and he wasn't even using his gears at the time. Later on, Luffy faced a worn out Moria, when he himself IMO was far more worn out himself and beat him. To add to that, prior to beating Moria Luffy pointed out a rather interesting fact, Moria has no way to hurt Luffy because he's made of Rubber. If you think back to all of Luffy's fights, all of his major opponents used cutting weapons, exploding weapons, and various other things like Aokiji's ice attacks to take him on. Other than those scissors, Moria only has his fists to fight with, and we've never seen him fight with those scissors so we don't know if he has any actual skill with it.

But my main point is this, after comparing what Moria and Crocodile can do with what Kuma, Mihawk, and the rest of the Shichibukai can do (minus boa), it just seems to pale in comparison.
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Old 2009-08-17, 14:30   Link #387
james0246
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I generally agree with almost everything you have said (Luffy, Moria, and Crocodile being, ore or less, on the same level), but I wanted to make 1 quick point and then a joke (at Blackbeard D. Kuma's expense):

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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Well not to reopen old wounds, but I kinda disagree with the Moria and Crocodile not being weaker thing. I'm sure there both much stronger now, and they're definitely gonna be able to hold their own in the upcoming battle, but as far as being in the upper class of pirates, I'm not too sure about that. IMO they're both around Luffy's level, which is not the upper class.
I'm not sure how they could be stronger. Crocodile was locked away and seemingly despondent most of the time he was imprisoned (due to the fact that his dream was destroyed). And, for Moria, since Luffy hasn't leveled-up that much in the 2 week period from the end of their fight, I do not see how Moria, who was injured during that time, could have leveled up in any significant manner (rather, I expect to either see him fight they way he did 10 years ago, when he lost to Kaidou; or simply fight fodder and never do anything meaningful again (unless he joins Smoker’s or Buggy’s “We Hate Luffy” crew)).

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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
As for Moria, we didn't see much of what he can do, but based on what I did see, I'd still say that Luffy could've beat him.
Completely agree, but now you're going to risk the wrath of Blackbeard D. Kuma, and his unholy quest to validate his love of Moria j/k .
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Old 2009-08-17, 15:08   Link #388
cheese4u
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I'm not sure how they could be stronger. Crocodile was locked away and seemingly despondent most of the time he was imprisoned (due to the fact that his dream was destroyed). And, for Moria, since Luffy hasn't leveled-up that much in the 2 week period from the end of their fight, I do not see how Moria, who was injured during that time, could have leveled up in any significant manner (rather, I expect to either see him fight they way he did 10 years ago, when he lost to Kaidou; or simply fight fodder and never do anything meaningful again (unless he joins Smoker’s or Buggy’s “We Hate Luffy” crew)).
Well, when I said that Moria and Crocodile would be stronger, I was speaking more along the lines of they won't screw around as much this time like they did last time. As for Crocodile, from what we've all seen so far this show deals alot with mental toughness, like Luffy fighting off the poison or Zoro taking in Luffy's pain via Kuma. I just felt the time he spent experiencing that would make him into a stronger person.
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Old 2009-08-17, 18:58   Link #389
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Well not to reopen old wounds, but I kinda disagree with the Moria and Crocodile not being weaker thing. I'm sure there both much stronger now, and they're definitely gonna be able to hold their own in the upcoming battle, but as far as being in the upper class of pirates, I'm not too sure about that. IMO they're both around Luffy's level, which is not the upper class.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not declaring that Moria and Crocodile are on par with their fellow peers. It's just that people are already assuming that they're the weakest despite the fact that we haven't seen the other warlords do much. My main argument is that we should wait and see what all of the warlords are fully capable of before we make any conclusions as to who's the strongest. In the Shichibukai thread, James, myself, and a few others have begun to formulate a tier list for the warlords. So far, we've only ranked Crocodile and Moria since they are the only two we've seen fight extensively (they each had a whole story arc dedicated to them and displayed a wide arsenal of abilities). And guess what? After a very good discussion/analysis, it was unanimously agreed on that Crocodile > Moria in a one on one fight. That being said, the order of warlords to fall is not a good indicator of who's stronger than who.

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Completely agree, but now you're going to risk the wrath of Blackbeard D. Kuma, and his unholy quest to validate his love of Moria j/k .
I wouldn't say that I love Moria . It's just that I defend him from the people who perceive him as being weak and below Luffy. He once fought equally with Kaidou; it makes no sense for a supernova rookie like Luffy to have that kind of strength (not yet, at least), especially when looking at things from a power balance perspective (marines = shichibukai = yonkou). Unless, of course, Oda meant that the 3 world powers form a delicate balance in a political sense, which makes more sense because it's hard to believe that they are all coincidentally equal in fighting power.
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Old 2009-08-17, 20:23   Link #390
AddiKtioNn-BlaCk
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
I wouldn't say that I love Moria . It's just that I defend him from the people who perceive him as being weak and below Luffy. He once fought equally with Kaidou; it makes no sense for a supernova rookie like Luffy to have that kind of strength (not yet, at least), especially when looking at things from a power balance perspective (marines = shichibukai = yonkou). Unless, of course, Oda meant that the 3 world powers form a delicate balance in a political sense, which makes more sense because it's hard to believe that they are all coincidentally equal in fighting power.

Where did in the manga did it say that Moria ever fought equally with Kaidou? I do remember it saying that he had ass handed to him on a silver platter with a fork in the left cheek by Kaidou. Otherwise, if he did fight equally with Kaidou and Luffy beat Moria, then you basically saying that Kaidou, a Yonkou, isn't nothing to write home about.

In my opinion, The Shichibukai was formed to balance out the power of the Yonkou collectively, not individually. If it was another Yonkou coming to Ace's rescue, I highly doubt the Marines would go such extreme measures. With the exception of Whitebeard, I believe the Marines can overpower a single Yonkou.
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Last edited by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk; 2009-08-18 at 05:54.
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Old 2009-08-17, 22:14   Link #391
cheese4u
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Don't get me wrong. I'm not declaring that Moria and Crocodile are on par with their fellow peers. It's just that people are already assuming that they're the weakest despite the fact that we haven't seen the other warlords do much. My main argument is that we should wait and see what all of the warlords are fully capable of before we make any conclusions as to who's the strongest. In the Shichibukai thread, James, myself, and a few others have begun to formulate a tier list for the warlords. So far, we've only ranked Crocodile and Moria since they are the only two we've seen fight extensively (they each had a whole story arc dedicated to them and displayed a wide arsenal of abilities). And guess what? After a very good discussion/analysis, it was unanimously agreed on that Crocodile > Moria in a one on one fight.
It's hard for me to say who would when in a fight between those two, they're so evenly matched. A tie maybe?

Quote:
the order of warlords to fall is not a good indicator of who's stronger than who.
I don't recall saying anything about the order in which they were defeated, my point was that Luffy is stronger because he beat one, and practically beat the other one.


Quote:
I wouldn't say that I love Moria . It's just that I defend him from the people who perceive him as being weak and below Luffy. He once fought equally with Kaidou; it makes no sense for a supernova rookie like Luffy to have that kind of strength (not yet, at least), especially when looking at things from a power balance perspective (marines = shichibukai = yonkou).
Well like addiktion-black said, I believe it was stated he was one of Kaidou's rivals, but as far as being equals is concerned he got owned to the point he replaced his entire crew with zombies so he couldn't lose anymore and then that plan was uprooted by a bunch of rookies, so I think its safe to say they're not equals. Although without knowing anything about kaidouh its pretty hard to say what the damage is on his end, but judging by Moria's spite over the whole situation I'm guessing not much. And as for Luffy, I would say Moria being a shichibukai shouldn't play that much into how he would fair against him one-on-one considering he's already beaten a shichibukai when he (Luffy) was significantly weaker.

Quote:
Unless, of course, Oda meant that the 3 world powers form a delicate balance in a political sense, which makes more sense because it's hard to believe that they are all coincidentally equal in fighting power.
Actually it's hard to believe they're equal at all, Whitebeard and his crew alone Should be enough to take out the Shichibukai, and they're only one part of a piece of the world power. So I'm thinking either:

1. Oda originally intended the Shichibukai to have bigger crews.

2. He intended the Shichibukai to be stronger.

3. When he mentioned the balancing powers he was referring to the people in charge (i. e. The Yonkou themselves/the captains, the admirals, and the shichibukai)

4. Or like you said maybe the word balance was meant to be more political then literal.

Or who knows maybe there's something we're missing here that hasn't been mentioned yet.



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Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk View Post
[CENTER][FONT="Century Gothic"]
Where did in the manga did it say that Kaidou ever fought equally with Kaidou?
Lol, I'd like to think Kaidou is equal to Kaidou.
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Last edited by cheese4u; 2009-08-17 at 22:24.
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Old 2009-08-17, 22:16   Link #392
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After watching the Movie Dark Knight, don't you guys think The Joker kind of resemble Doflamingo a bit?
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Old 2009-08-18, 00:33   Link #393
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After watching the Movie Dark Knight, don't you guys think The Joker kind of resemble Doflamingo a bit?
Reverse that.
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Old 2009-08-18, 05:04   Link #394
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Spoilers are out (seemingly confirmed).

Spoiler for manga spoilers...:
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Old 2009-08-18, 05:12   Link #395
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Spoiler for .:
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Old 2009-08-18, 05:18   Link #396
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yeah still waiting for rest to get put up.
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Old 2009-08-18, 05:32   Link #397
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Spoiler for *:
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Old 2009-08-18, 05:34   Link #398
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Spoiler for manga spoilers...:
:
People please, these are spoilers, so they must stay under spoiler tags...

Spoiler for manga spoilers...:
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Old 2009-08-18, 05:40   Link #399
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Spoilers are out (seemingly confirmed).

Spoiler for manga spoilers...:
Spoiler for hm:
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Old 2009-08-18, 05:40   Link #400
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People please, these are spoilers, so they must stay under spoiler tags...

Spoiler for manga spoilers...:
Spoiler for *:
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