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Old 2009-08-17, 14:46   Link #1821
rtic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Also, if we are allowed to follow their thoughts in one particular game does that mean they cannot be culprits in other games?
I think it should be applied on a game-by-game basis, especially considering the questionable role of game-piece Battler in EP5. If the true culprit is active at some point in all games, then it might still be feasible to narrow down all of the possible suspects using this rule.
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Old 2009-08-17, 14:53   Link #1822
Rias
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Also, if we are allowed to follow their thoughts in one particular game does that mean they cannot be culprits in other games?
This is actually a manipulation of rule #9. While the rule used in the game isn't exactly the same as the original 10, the idea is similar.

ノックス第9条。 観測者は自分の判断、解釈を主張することが許される。

That is, anyone (besides the detective) is welcomed to make their own judgement and explanations. That also implies that, they CAN make mistakes in their interpertation of things (just like "stupid watson" whom intellgence is lower than the reader)

I think anytime we watch from another person's POV, and be able to read their minds, they are the "Watson" of that game. In the end, only the detective's perspective is absolute.
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Old 2009-08-17, 14:55   Link #1823
Ithekro
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That's pretty bad...considering how Battler is and all.
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Old 2009-08-17, 16:38   Link #1824
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
ノックス第9条。 観測者は自分の判断、解釈を主張することが許される。
Ahh, so they are slightly different in the game. Could you list the in game versions of Knox's rules?
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Old 2009-08-17, 17:35   Link #1825
Rias
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Spoiler for Knox's 10 commandments, taken from TIPS, ep5 version:


While the wording is different, they generally convey the same ideas.
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Old 2009-08-17, 17:39   Link #1826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
Spoiler for Knox's 10 commandments, taken from TIPS, ep5 version:


While the wording is different, they generally convey the same ideas.
I remember those when I read Knox, It's really a pity there is no Chinaman in this story (Art.5 no Chinaman is culprit. it was a bit racist because there were a lot of them in novels)
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Old 2009-08-17, 17:42   Link #1827
Ithekro
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Wouldn't the "Chinaman" in this be Beatrice?
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Old 2009-08-17, 19:17   Link #1828
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
Spoiler for Knox's 10 commandments, taken from TIPS, ep5 version:


While the wording is different, they generally convey the same ideas.
Thank you. This will be interesting if we can use this as a new basis for solving the mysteries.
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Old 2009-08-18, 02:33   Link #1829
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While there are various things to deduce in ep5, I'm going to start with analyzing the Shannon=Kanon Theory.

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-08-18, 02:40   Link #1830
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Old 2009-08-18, 02:46   Link #1831
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Spoiler for Response:
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-08-18, 06:31   Link #1832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
While there are various things to deduce in ep5, I'm going to start with analyzing the Shannon=Kanon Theory.

Spoiler:
You're forgetting the scene where she says Natsuhi is the criminal. That part wasn't Meta-world beacuse she's just accusing, the trial afterwards is meta-world, but not that part. She clearly states ''Shannon and Kanon please close the doors'', and those words come from her mouth from a board-scene, so it can be said that both exist since she names both of them and that means they're both on the same place under her PoV, or you're trying to tell that close the doors was a meta-world thing, come on that happened!!!
Most likely Ryuukishi made an in-your-face with Shannon=Kanon theory, since he down't even need to use red to disprove it.
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Old 2009-08-18, 13:20   Link #1833
Rias
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You're forgetting the scene where she says Natsuhi is the criminal. That part wasn't Meta-world beacuse she's just accusing, the trial afterwards is meta-world, but not that part. She clearly states ''Shannon and Kanon please close the doors'', and those words come from her mouth from a board-scene, so it can be said that both exist since she names both of them and that means they're both on the same place under her PoV, or you're trying to tell that close the doors was a meta-world thing, come on that happened!!!
Most likely Ryuukishi made an in-your-face with Shannon=Kanon theory, since he down't even need to use red to disprove it.
I did forget about that scene, but it's still can be aruged by the same way.

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-08-18, 14:00   Link #1834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
I did forget about that scene, but it's still can be aruged by the same way.

Spoiler:
OK, sorry. But another thing of your theory. It's about Knox article 10 you say 2=1, but it's the same backwards 1=2, since either Shannon or Kanon is impersonating the other, one of them is pretending to b another person, so it still collides with Knox article 10, it's impossible since the red truth is efective, no one can disguise as another person, and either Shannon or Kanon is disguising as the other one.

Silly theory, Erika's both sight , hear and intuition are perfect(even if she's mistaken), she would know if someone is impersonating, I mean, S/K can make a really good way to pretend to be the other but Erika should be able to detect it, she's a great detective after all and there's no way to cheat her. Well, she saw both Shannon and Kanon separately, if she's a great detective for a third-rate mistery, she should have been able to figure out something. Again silly theory

OK: the only theory I can find for it to be true is double personality, it wouldn't collide with the red truth if it was, since it was impersonating him/herself, but still it doen'tgo well with ep2 and Kumasawa and Nanjo killings, since shannon would have at least been damaged and she still would have killed the two


Edit: my latest reasoning. For this I will use blue text and Devil's proofIt' impossible that no one, and I mean no one hasn't seen the two together since the day Kanon arrived to Rokkenjima By these I can derivate this:Shanon and Kanon are two different beings. If one of them died and the other asummed his/her reponsibility as the other, it would
still be a deception since that person, even if he/she thinks it's true, it would collide with Knox article ten, since it's a deception since the person is originally dead
And following the games the one to die should have been Shannon, since Kanon's title can't be inherited,but still Shannon knows things only she would know, like Battler's phrases and George when they were younger

For your theory you need to check every moment since they were born, cause out of the game any1 can be objective, for mine I just need one moment they were sen together, at any time.

I still think Ryuukishi will prove your theory is true, I just suppose so since this episode were just very in-your-face in that regard
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Old 2009-08-18, 14:10   Link #1835
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I have to agree, I think clinging to Shkannon at this point is kind of unreasonable.
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Old 2009-08-18, 15:19   Link #1836
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there is one thing that is still quite nasty and not even addressed in the ura tea party...

The letter. That was the only real moment where Beato trampled on Erika, and it is still quite a critical event.
So, to summary a bit:
Jessica, Rudolf, Kyrie, Battler, Eva, Hideyoshi, George, Rosa, Maria, Kanon, Shannon, Kumasawa, Gohda and Nanjo were in the parlor.
Natsuhi, Krauss, Genji (and "Kinzo") weren't.
All of a sudden, someone knocked at the door several times, and as they opened the door, there wasn't anyone but a letter. And inside of it, there was the genuine ring of the Head.
However, Beatrice confirmed in red that none of the aforementioned three were involved in the letter. Furthermore, the letter wasn't placed there indirectly (not put under the tea cart Shannon brought a while ago), nor stuck at the ceiling of the corridor.
Lambda also confirmed the knock was genuine, made by someone with their hand, not a recording.

It is still bugging me a lot, especially it can change a lot of things, should we know the perception of it...
And I don't have any idea why Beato didn't even use this evidence in the ura tea, which would be backed up by Lambda already.
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Old 2009-08-18, 15:25   Link #1837
Rias
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Originally Posted by Leinne View Post
OK, sorry. But another thing of your theory. It's about Knox article 10 you say 2=1, but it's the same backwards 1=2, since either Shannon or Kanon is impersonating the other, one of them is pretending to b another person, so it still collides with Knox article 10, it's impossible since the red truth is efective, no one can disguise as another person, and either Shannon or Kanon is disguising as the other one.

Silly theory, Erika's both sight , hear and intuition are perfect(even if she's mistaken), she would know if someone is impersonating, I mean, S/K can make a really good way to pretend to be the other but Erika should be able to detect it, she's a great detective after all and there's no way to cheat her. Well, she saw both Shannon and Kanon separately, if she's a great detective for a third-rate mistery, she should have been able to figure out something. Again silly theory

OK: the only theory I can find for it to be true is double personality, it wouldn't collide with the red truth if it was, since it was impersonating him/herself, but still it doen'tgo well with ep2 and Kumasawa and Nanjo killings, since shannon would have at least been damaged and she still would have killed the two


Edit: my latest reasoning. For this I will use blue text and Devil's proofIt' impossible that no one, and I mean no one hasn't seen the two together since the day Kanon arrived to Rokkenjima By these I can derivate this:Shanon and Kanon are two different beings. If one of them died and the other asummed his/her reponsibility as the other, it would
still be a deception since that person, even if he/she thinks it's true, it would collide with Knox article ten, since it's a deception since the person is originally dead
And following the games the one to die should have been Shannon, since Kanon's title can't be inherited,but still Shannon knows things only she would know, like Battler's phrases and George when they were younger

For your theory you need to check every moment since they were born, cause out of the game any1 can be objective, for mine I just need one moment they were sen together, at any time.

I still think Ryuukishi will prove your theory is true, I just suppose so since this episode were just very in-your-face in that regard

1. Erika seeing both Shannon and Kannon, or only seeing one, is one thing. Telling everyone that she saw 2 distinct entity or only saw one is another thing. Erika, just like red text, does not owe anyone to disclose and confirm every single infomation. She only needs to say something that works for her.

2. Double, or multiple personality, is part of the possibilities of Shannon = Kanon theory. Along side with various ways of switching back and forth.

3. What I'm interested in, and applying, is during the two days, Oct4-5. What happens before, is not of interest. All that matter is that there's a possibility that Shannon and Kanon are actually one of the same during the two days. Whether they are disgusing, people are delusional, they are shown fantasy elements, or mutliple personality. Mistook someone's appearance, isn't a violation of rule#10. Just as Kinzo is "alive" isn't a violation of rule #10 (in ep1). Kanon or Shannon doesn't have to be dead. One of them just have to NOT show up (dead, didn't show up to work, didn't exist in the first place), during the two days.

4. "For your theory you need to check every moment since they were born, cause out of the game any1 can be objective, for mine I just need one moment they were sen together, at any time." <-- That itself is the devil's proof. We havn't seen them together under the POV of someone that we can put absolute confidence in.

5. In-your-face is one thing, but the truth is another thing. Just becuase Mion stabbed Keiichi doesn't mean Mion is Mion; and we've been prepared for that for a long time. All I'm saying is that, the theory isn't completely dead.
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Old 2009-08-18, 15:25   Link #1838
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
there is one thing that is still quite nasty and not even addressed in the ura tea party...

The letter. That was the only real moment where Beato trampled on Erika, and it is still quite a critical event.
So, to summary a bit:
Jessica, Rudolf, Kyrie, Battler, Eva, Hideyoshi, George, Rosa, Maria, Kanon, Shannon, Kumasawa, Gohda and Nanjo were in the parlor.
Natsuhi, Krauss, Genji (and "Kinzo") weren't.
All of a sudden, someone knocked at the door several times, and as they opened the door, there wasn't anyone but a letter. And inside of it, there was the genuine ring of the Head.
However, Beatrice confirmed in red that none of the aforementioned three were involved in the letter. Furthermore, the letter wasn't placed there indirectly (not put under the tea cart Shannon brought a while ago), nor stuck at the ceiling of the corridor.
Lambda also confirmed the knock was genuine, made by someone with their hand, not a recording.

It is still bugging me a lot, especially it can change a lot of things, should we know the perception of it...
And I don't have any idea why Beato didn't even use this evidence in the ura tea, which would be backed up by Lambda already.
Wait, I thought Jessica, George, Maria, Kumasawa and Gohda weren't in the parlor. Wasn't it the parents (excluding Krauss and Natsuhi), along with Shannon, Kanon and Battler?
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Old 2009-08-18, 15:26   Link #1839
Ithekro
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There is a trap of some kind in here...the question is...what?
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Old 2009-08-18, 15:30   Link #1840
Kitsu
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What I'm interested in, and applying, is during the two days, Oct4-5. What happens before, is not of interest. All that matter is that there's a possibility that Shannon and Kanon are actually one of the same during the two days. Whether they are disgusing, people are delusional, they are shown fantasy elements, or mutliple personality. Mistook someone's appearance, isn't a violation of rule#10. Just as Kinzo is "alive" isn't a violation of rule #10 (in ep1). Kanon or Shannon doesn't have to be dead. One of them just have to NOT show up (dead, didn't show up to work, didn't exist in the first place), during the two days.
This something I thought for a long time. What if for example Shannon has fallen sick on the 4th-5th but because Natsuhi insists that all three servants with the golden wing are present, they decide to impersonate the other one.

Maybe the "In-your-face-they-appear-at-the-same-time" is the trap
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