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Old 2009-08-19, 14:58   Link #261
Ithekro
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As I said, orders are orders. The servants with the one wing will follow orders given by the master. Kinzo is still the master.
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Old 2009-08-19, 14:58   Link #262
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
Yeah, if the mastermind is a single person, my chips are on Kinzo.
Spoiler for EP 5:
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Old 2009-08-19, 15:00   Link #263
Ithekro
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Wasn't the painting put up in 1984?
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Old 2009-08-19, 15:01   Link #264
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Spoiler for EP 5:
Exactly, yes. Kinzo would have to have set this up long before his death, and I would not put that past him if the Kinzo we see in the magic scenes is anything like he was when he was alive.

In any case, it all makes Nanjo and the servants look very suspect.
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Old 2009-08-19, 15:21   Link #265
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
As I said, orders are orders. The servants with the one wing will follow orders given by the master. Kinzo is still the master.
The servants are human beings. Would they really obey the gruesome murderous orders of a dead man?

I think whoever has an axe to grind, it's not for the reasons we expect. And I think Kinzo's epitaph, his willpower, and the Beatrice legend in general are being twisted into something he never intended.
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Old 2009-08-19, 15:27   Link #266
gwy
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
There is no need for Beatrice to "hallucinate", since she was weave whatever she wants (i.e: witches battle etc).
However, Bern stated several times in red that Kinzo was Natsuhi's delusion.
Well as I said, I do not doubt that Natsuhi was the one who's having illusions, based on the context and red texts (perhaps even contexts should not be trusted). What I'm saying is that all scenes are depicted from *someone's* perspective and we don't always know who. For instance if Battler is in a scene, he can either be the observer of that scene or he is in fact the observed (or hallucinated). This usually makes no difference but in Umineko it does. Thus my guess is that all scenes in the game are real. There's no lie anywhere, including the magic scenes. Even those scenes can be explained as narrated from perspectives of people who really believe in magic. To him or her, those scenes are just as *real*. The advantage is that it offers a simple and uniform model to understand the game world. And Ryukishi can make use of this narration method to cause some real confusions. It is easy to mislead the reader into believing some scenes are narrated from a particular person's angle (such as showing that person first) when it is in fact not.
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Old 2009-08-19, 15:29   Link #267
k//eternal
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The servants are human beings.
Don't be silly, they're furniture
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Old 2009-08-19, 15:44   Link #268
Ithekro
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Basic problem...each first twilight is different in style (right?) The question now is, why? Six people, sure, just how they are killed and displayed in different. Now if we follow the one mastermind idea, that means that either he/she is whimsical and came up with something different each time, or assigned a different person to commit the crime each time.

If there is just a basic set of circumstances, and something triggers a different person to act each time...what is the trigger, and why always six murders...or is it always six (Kinzo's body?)

Something isn't adding up.
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Old 2009-08-19, 16:06   Link #269
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The first episode could be a deliberate attempt to be the six. The second could be a coincidence if Rosa was the first twilight killer (as she happened to kill everyone else at the family confernce, which was six people). The third episode you have Kinzo, who wasn't murdered. In the fourth, we have no proof the twilights even really happened, let alone who was the first twilight.
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Old 2009-08-19, 16:11   Link #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Basic problem...each first twilight is different in style (right?) The question now is, why? Six people, sure, just how they are killed and displayed in different. Now if we follow the one mastermind idea, that means that either he/she is whimsical and came up with something different each time, or assigned a different person to commit the crime each time.
Well, assuming Kinzo is the mastermind, he simply may never have told his accomplices HOW to kill everyone.
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Old 2009-08-19, 16:20   Link #271
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
Don't be silly, they're furniture
Does that mean that they don't count towards the amount of people on the island? ;D
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Old 2009-08-19, 16:42   Link #272
Antera Caramichael
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Nice shot
With this, there is only 14 Humans on the Island

Last edited by Antera Caramichael; 2009-08-19 at 17:00.
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Old 2009-08-19, 16:57   Link #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Wasn't the painting put up in 1984?
If I remember correctly, George (or someone else) said the painting was put up 3 years ago (i.e. 1983).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrellord View Post
Does that mean that they don't count towards the amount of people on the island? ;D
You know, if for some reason, R07 decides to pull something like this, I'll bash my head against my monitor.
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Old 2009-08-19, 16:58   Link #274
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If I remember correctly, George (or someone else) said the painting was put up 3 years ago (i.e. 1983).
No the painting and epitaph were put up in 1984. There's a line in one of the games (I think it was the first) that said it was put up 'the conference before the last'.
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Old 2009-08-19, 17:23   Link #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Basic problem...each first twilight is different in style (right?) The question now is, why? Six people, sure, just how they are killed and displayed in different. Now if we follow the one mastermind idea, that means that either he/she is whimsical and came up with something different each time, or assigned a different person to commit the crime each time.

If there is just a basic set of circumstances, and something triggers a different person to act each time...what is the trigger, and why always six murders...or is it always six (Kinzo's body?)

Something isn't adding up.
I'm starting to think that along side with a central plot, there's a sub plot going on at the same time, making the murders different every time. It could have been that mutiple people showed up on the island with their own plan of murders, but depends on the situation, different people activates (or decides to activate) their plans first for each episode.

For example. if Eva wanted to kill Krauss, but Krauss was already dead (ie. Ep1), then she would have to botch her plan, which results in someone else killing her.

Again, ep5 also hinted the nature of the killings following the epitaph, which seems to add onto my speculation:
1. Cause confusion
2. Just so happened to agree with the epitaph.
3. To cause fear & take revenage on someone. (Open to manipulation, will be discussed at the end)

Which, we can use to see why "6" at the start.

Spoiler for Ep5 elements:


Case 1 is highly applicable to ep1~4, as people have found different ways around the red text for ep1~4. Ep2 could also happen, where multiple parties made their moves, but probably only a one time thing (ep3/4 comes to mind). Case 3 is just as probably as Case 1, as long as it works.

Spoiler for probabilities of case 3 vs red text from ep5:
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Old 2009-08-19, 19:30   Link #276
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I'm stubborn and still have my money on Gohda as being the killer for all games lol.

But on a different topic
Spoiler for Possibility?:
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Old 2009-08-19, 19:34   Link #277
k//eternal
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Why would Krauss want to frame Natsuhi? Or did I miss your point
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Old 2009-08-19, 19:37   Link #278
Ithekro
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Rudolf I think he means
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Old 2009-08-19, 19:39   Link #279
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Yeah, whoops XD
Spoiler for End of 5:
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Old 2009-08-19, 19:45   Link #280
Ithekro
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Unless this is some weird family tradition (sort of like a snipe hunt) for Halloween...there should be some bodies.

Though it would be "amusing" if the first twilight was always a prank, but it sparked off real murders due to paranoia.
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