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Old 2009-08-20, 14:22   Link #1861
porchoky
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Heh, alright. Maybe I should just sit down and finish EP4 before saying anything else stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
On Present Time in Red: If it is mentioned like that, then it might just only refer to the game having occurred in 1986, but not the meta-world, which doesn't strangle my little theory. But I don't recall any red regarding present time though, so... does anyone else have a clue?

Sorry, just want to get my facts right before I shoot my mouth off something silly.
My personal opinion is that they are in some higher dimension above time where they can observe the game, so time doesn't really matter. That's probably not the "truth" but it makes things easier to think about. I don't recall any red from before EP4 about this.
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Old 2009-08-20, 17:06   Link #1862
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Ok since I'm getting hounded on the other thread that I didn't read ep5 yet I guess I'll post my theory here. Now, before I say who I think the culprit is, here out my thinking.

Spoiler for Regarding the author:


Spoiler for Above applied to suspects:


Spoiler for Regarding Knox,Dine, etc.:


So who do I think the culprit is?

Spoiler for Culprit Hint:


Spoiler for True Culprit:


Next post will have my theory.
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Old 2009-08-20, 17:32   Link #1863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
Spoiler for Culprit Hint:
That's a tl error from EP4. It was found, pointed out, and corrected a while ago. It'll be fixed in the update patch that'll hopefully be done in a week or so.
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:00   Link #1864
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Quote:
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Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:28   Link #1865
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:33   Link #1866
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Spoiler for Regarding Knox,Dine, etc.:
Volcano is supernatural ?
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:39   Link #1867
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Volcano is supernatural ?
No people were theorizing that Beatrice is a volcano. A volcano is not supernatural by itself but when the Endless Witch uses it as a murder weapon, yeah its pretty supernatural to me
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:43   Link #1868
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Err, if Beatrice is a volcano / other natural disaster, you can't call it a supernatural murder weapon.

If she was (hypothetically) revealed to be a volcano, I suppose she could use the argument "I made the volcano erupt and kill everybody", but that's about as cheap as saying that the murders were committed because she hypnotized the culprit (in the human culprit case).
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:44   Link #1869
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Spoiler for Why:


Spoiler for Culprit's Background Story:
Spoiler for Part 1 response:


Spoiler for Part 2:
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:48   Link #1870
k//eternal
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Not going to make a strong assertion on whether Kyrie would kill Battler (when it comes down to it, you could make an argument like that about almost anyone in the family), but if Asumu's background was faked, it would become pretty obvious when Battler went off to live with his maternal grandparents.
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:51   Link #1871
Marion
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Not going to make a strong assertion on whether Kyrie would kill Battler (when it comes down to it, you could make an argument like that about almost anyone in the family), but if Asumu's background was faked, it would become pretty obvious when Battler went off to live with his maternal grandparents.
Which it wasn't. Battler himself said in EP 1 that he had been living more commonly with his grandparents and was even shocked at the way Rudolf's house looked so fancy after not living in it for so long.
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:52   Link #1872
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Hmmm.

Spoiler for Could be used as a joke:
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:53   Link #1873
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Hmmm.

Spoiler for Could be used as a joke:
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:56   Link #1874
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The culprit might not intend to kill Battler. He is always last it seems...missing usually.
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:58   Link #1875
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Old 2009-08-21, 02:19   Link #1876
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Old 2009-08-21, 02:52   Link #1877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porchoky View Post
My personal opinion is that they are in some higher dimension above time where they can observe the game, so time doesn't really matter. That's probably not the "truth" but it makes things easier to think about. I don't recall any red from before EP4 about this.
True... But that's the fantasy view-point and not the anti-fantasy one, which would dictate that time still holds true in some sense even in the meta-world.

I would elaborate, but Chaos, despite some flaws in his theory, described my approach to the problem very eloquently:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
Ok since I'm getting hounded on the other thread that I didn't read ep5 yet I guess I'll post my theory here. Now, before I say who I think the culprit is, here out my thinking.

Spoiler for Regarding the author:


Spoiler for Above applied to suspects:


Spoiler for Regarding Knox,Dine, etc.:
Bravo, Chaos, you hit my theoryworking on the nail.

I quote Battler on this: "Let's turn the chessboard around."

You must be puzzled as to why I find this to be our crucial clue to breaking the Umineko Code. Take for example, a game of chess. It's played by 2 parties using pawns on an arena. We are conscious of the pieces, and all actions are directed by us. But look from the chess-pieces' perspective: Are they conscious of us? When a pawn takes out a knight, does it think that someone compelled it to vanquish a knight, or did it actually think that it was charging across a battlefield and striking a killing blow to a servant of an enemy king?

A chess piece can only be conscious of its own world, the chess board, and not the outside world that controls it. Likewise, the people of Rokkenjima are not conscious of the meta-world that is playing them.

And so, shall I say, that Beatrice and Battler are not conscious that they are being played by Ryukishi?



Whether we are conscious of it or not, we are now playing a metagame with Ryukishi. We want to guess the ending of Umineko, and Ryukishi wants to keep us enthralled to the end. He wins when at the end of the game he pulls off an explanation so stunning and unpredictable that we would be hailing him a genius that made Higurashi. I don't know how we would win, but I'd like to think that it is to guess the ending Ryukishi has planned.

So let's turn the chessboard over and think from his perspective. With Beato and Meta-Battler as his chess pieces, Ryukishi is playing the role of the Golden Witch, moving the Umineko game in certain ways that give us hints and red-herrings at the same time. The longer he keeps us confused, the more he leads us away from the truth, the closer he is to winning. At the same time, he cannot violate his own rules, or we would call him a cheat/copout, and he loses. We of the meta-meta-world take on the role of Battler, trying to make sense of the scenario RyuBeato is portraying and coming out with our own theories to solve this mystery. We win by demonstrating that this game's outcome is predictable.

With this in mind, I'd say that this should be the way we should approach Umineko (and it's a hell lot more fun!) and how we should approach his clues. Chaos used this perspective, and created his own theory. But thus far, we have been dancing to Ryukishi's tune and trying to read into his clues, but we haven't really explored reading the implications of those clues. At the moment, all his clues lead us to think everything is solved within the game-world, but at the same time, it creates an opening where we assume a lot of things about the meta-world.

I'm still in the midst of ironing out my own case (it's got to do with the time of the meta-world, since all mentions of time seems to only apply to the Games being played) but I'd like to just highlight this in the meantime.

Think about it.




EDIT: Just want to add on, that this game you Battlers and RyuBeato are now playing is fun either outcome as long as the game was enjoyable. I'm just here to ease my boredom and make this game the most enjoyable. Ni-paa...
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Last edited by MeisterBabylon; 2009-08-21 at 03:44.
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Old 2009-08-21, 03:44   Link #1878
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
True... But that's the fantasy view-point and not the anti-fantasy one, which would dictate that time still holds true in some sense even in the meta-world.

I would elaborate, but Chaos, despite some flaws in his theory, described my approach to the problem very eloquently:

Bravo, Chaos, you hit my theoryworking on the nail.

I quote Battler on this: "Let's turn the chessboard around."

You must be puzzled as to why I find this to be our crucial clue to breaking the Umineko Code. Take for example, a game of chess. It's played by 2 parties using pawns on an arena. We are conscious of the pieces, and all actions are directed by us. But look from the chess-pieces' perspective: Are they conscious of us? When a pawn takes out a knight, does it think that someone compelled it to vanquish a knight, or did it actually think that it was charging across a battlefield and striking a killing blow to a servant of an enemy king?

A chess piece can only be conscious of its own world, the chess board, and not the outside world that controls it. Likewise, the people of Rokkenjima are not conscious of the meta-world that is playing them.

And so, shall I say, that Beatrice and Battler are not conscious that they are being played by Ryukishi?



Whether we are conscious of it or not, we are now playing a metagame with Ryukishi. We want to guess the ending of Umineko, and Ryukishi wants to keep us enthralled to the end. He wins when at the end of the game he pulls off an explanation so stunning and unpredictable that we would be hailing him a genius that made Higurashi. I don't know how we would win, but I'd like to think that it is to guess the ending Ryukishi has planned.

So let's turn the chessboard over and think from his perspective. With Beato and Meta-Battler as his chess pieces, Ryukishi is playing the role of the Golden Witch, moving the Umineko game in certain ways that give us hints and red-herrings at the same time. The longer he keeps us confused, the more he leads us away from the truth, the closer he is to winning. At the same time, he cannot violate his own rules, or we would call him a cheat/copout, and he loses. We of the meta-meta-world take on the role of Battler, trying to make sense of the scenario RyuBeato is portraying and coming out with our own theories to solve this mystery. We win by demonstrating that this game's outcome is predictable.

With this in mind, I'd say that this should be the way we should approach Umineko (and it's a hell lot more fun!) and how we should approach his clues. Chaos used this perspective, and created his own theory. But thus far, we have been dancing to Ryukishi's tune and trying to read into his clues, but we haven't really explored reading the implications of those clues. At the moment, all his clues lead us to think everything is solved within the game-world and the meta-world, but at the same time, it creates an opening where we assume a lot of things about the meta-world.

I'm still in the midst of ironing out my own case (it's got to do with the time of the meta-world, since all mentions of time seems to only apply to the Games being played) but I'd like to just highlight this in the meantime.

Think about it.




EDIT: Just want to add on, that this game we Battlers and RyuBeato are now playing is fun either outcome as long as the game was enjoyable. I'm just a Bernkastel, wanting to ease my boredom and make this game the most enjoyable.
I highly doubt that the pieces are incapable of such a line of questioning. Such a line of questioning is the nature of the metaphysical inquiry itself. Given the fact that they are experiencing events that from their POV are almost unreal and unimaginable they would be expected to react in ways real people would.

This is how metaphysics was born: the inquiry into the nature of our current reality and it's possible links to any meta-reality that may be possible. In more detail, when one finds current reality to be insufficient, man points is questions to a possible other reality that may hold the answers that he seeks, thus a meta-reality because it is a reality he cannot exactly access. At least as far as we know.

The characters are put into a problem that makes them question just WTF is going on. They are arguably pieces in the game of Rokkenjima held by Beato and Meta-Battler. While their consciousness are limited to their own world, it does not mean they cannot question the possibility of a higher world or a higher power at work. Same goes for Battler and Beato: who knows if they are thinking that a higher power lording over them may exist (Ryukishi).

I've kept you're and Chaos' ideas in my mind for a while after completeing Ep4 since I had come to the conclusion that we have become bound to Ryukishi and have entered the arena of perhaps reaching the conclusion before even he does. If that's possible anyway.

The problem I approached however is this: which are clues and which are red herrings? To this day, even with red text, there is still the matter of ironing out what to consider as empirically valid and which can be taken with a grain of salt. As you have said, we must dance to the tune of Ryukishi's clues, but that's more of necessity than habit or somesuch. As of Ep5 I still have no idea which to take as trues clues and which must be tossed out. With that in mind, I still find it difficult to seek the implications of his clues when I still don't know which are clues with vital implications.

This is why I'm willingly letting myself be led by the nose. As it stands I find that there is still not enough to go on, very few clues who's validity can be ascertained. I cannot as of yet seek the overaching implications of current information because we'd have an assload, then the problem of sorting them out from the false ones. With what we have we still need to stick to our metaworld assumptions because that is all we have to go with as of now.

In my opinion, seeking the implications of what Ryukishi is giving us is premature because... well he hasn't given us enough to work with yet. We are still dependent on what he brain produces, and we haven't been given enough definitive content to work it out.
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Old 2009-08-21, 04:02   Link #1879
Dr. Akagi
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Chaos may be right

Spoiler for Just some random thoughts:
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Old 2009-08-21, 04:05   Link #1880
ChaosDimension
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Hey someone agrees with me for once! I also like your thinking Meister, it gave me new ideas.

But, I guess we're in a big dilemma here. By what you say, and in reference to episode 5, he is a Game Master. And we are not Battler, he is Battler.

Battler has a chance to win, we, the player, have NO chance of winning at all. We are Beatrice. *cackle* Huge mindfuck huh?

Still not getting it? What do most visual novels have in common?

Spoiler for answer:


There is a reason why this game and Higurashi is a linear storyline. It's his device for winning each and everytime time! Technically Ryukishi has already made up thousands of kakera aka possible outcomes(but to due time constraints its possible it's just a few. ) All Ryukishi has to do is go up google "type in _____ is the culprit killer" If there theories on the outcome then, he goes "I didn't trick em enough. They were able to figure it out." So he goes "NEXT! and then searches for ____ is murdered by ____ with a plot twist of ______. No results? Bam! A winner is me!" He elaborates that outcome on his next episode and we all make the Battler face and go "What the heellllllll is that?" Then Ryubeato goes "*cackle* *cackle* I'm in your VN trolling your uminekos *cackle* *cackle*"

How's that for a mindfuck?

Also TLR version

-In the IRL(in real life) world Ryukishi is Battler and he is the game master, he always wins since he controls the game board.

-We are portrayed as Beatrice, we can only keep the game infinitely going through a tie but never winning.

-????

-Profit!

Sorry guys it had to be done. Discuss!

Spoiler for Spoilers for higurashi:
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