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Old 2009-08-21, 04:39   Link #1881
Dr. Akagi
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Spoiler for Re: Higurashi:
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Old 2009-08-21, 05:04   Link #1882
MeisterBabylon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I highly doubt that the pieces are incapable of such a line of questioning. Such a line of questioning is the nature of the metaphysical inquiry itself. Given the fact that they are experiencing events that from their POV are almost unreal and unimaginable they would be expected to react in ways real people would.

This is how metaphysics was born: the inquiry into the nature of our current reality and it's possible links to any meta-reality that may be possible. In more detail, when one finds current reality to be insufficient, man points is questions to a possible other reality that may hold the answers that he seeks, thus a meta-reality because it is a reality he cannot exactly access. At least as far as we know.

The characters are put into a problem that makes them question just WTF is going on. They are arguably pieces in the game of Rokkenjima held by Beato and Meta-Battler. While their consciousness are limited to their own world, it does not mean they cannot question the possibility of a higher world or a higher power at work. Same goes for Battler and Beato: who knows if they are thinking that a higher power lording over them may exist (Ryukishi).

I've kept you're and Chaos' ideas in my mind for a while after completeing Ep4 since I had come to the conclusion that we have become bound to Ryukishi and have entered the arena of perhaps reaching the conclusion before even he does. If that's possible anyway.

The problem I approached however is this: which are clues and which are red herrings? To this day, even with red text, there is still the matter of ironing out what to consider as empirically valid and which can be taken with a grain of salt. As you have said, we must dance to the tune of Ryukishi's clues, but that's more of necessity than habit or somesuch. As of Ep5 I still have no idea which to take as trues clues and which must be tossed out. With that in mind, I still find it difficult to seek the implications of his clues when I still don't know which are clues with vital implications.

This is why I'm willingly letting myself be led by the nose. As it stands I find that there is still not enough to go on, very few clues who's validity can be ascertained. I cannot as of yet seek the overaching implications of current information because we'd have an assload, then the problem of sorting them out from the false ones. With what we have we still need to stick to our metaworld assumptions because that is all we have to go with as of now.

In my opinion, seeking the implications of what Ryukishi is giving us is premature because... well he hasn't given us enough to work with yet. We are still dependent on what he brain produces, and we haven't been given enough definitive content to work it out.
I totally agree with this. I forgot that the pieces, when they aren't that caught up in their situation, have the power to question the metaphysical.

But that's not the point of my post. I merely wanted to start a new line of thought, look around the chessboard rather than always from the sides, and see what bears fruit. The goalposts may yet change still as we have about 2 more episodes to go? There's so many holes that we can arrange the facts to form part of one picture and rearrange them to form part of another, and they both look equally probable at the moment. My actions would be to propose yet another arrangement to put the facts we now have in and fit more puzzle pieces as we go along.

Still, thanks for pointing it out.

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Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
Hey someone agrees with me for once! I also like your thinking Meister, it gave me new ideas.

But, I guess we're in a big dilemma here. By what you say, and in reference to episode 5, he is a Game Master. And we are not Battler, he is Battler.

Battler has a chance to win, we, the player, have NO chance of winning at all. We are Beatrice. *cackle* Huge mindfuck huh?

Still not getting it? What do most visual novels have in common?

Spoiler for answer:


There is a reason why this game and Higurashi is a linear storyline. It's his device for winning each and everytime time! Technically Ryukishi has already made up thousands of kakera aka possible outcomes(but to due time constraints its possible it's just a few. ) All Ryukishi has to do is go up google "type in _____ is the culprit killer" If there theories on the outcome then, he goes "I didn't trick em enough. They were able to figure it out." So he goes "NEXT! and then searches for ____ is murdered by ____ with a plot twist of ______. No results? Bam! A winner is me!" He elaborates that outcome on his next episode and we all make the Battler face and go "What the heellllllll is that?" Then Ryubeato goes "*cackle* *cackle* I'm in your VN trolling your uminekos *cackle* *cackle*"

How's that for a mindfuck?
Very good point, I cannot deny that either. However, as I said, Ryukishi has to abide by some rules or Umineko would be one big farce, and he still loses. Off the top of my head:

A) He cannot create a scenario that results in a retcon of any episodes up to date, whether by purposeful writing (which would turn the game into a farce instantly) or by accident (where us Battlers find it). This is especially true for dictated-in-canon indisputable Truths of any color.

B) The answer must not be so absurd that it reduces the game to a farce as well.

C) He has a limited number of games left, as I believe there's been only 7 confirmed episodes?

D) As the game ends, all of the clues must have been in the game thus far.

E) His mind is still going to be limited when compared to the collective power of thought of his audience when it comes to shifting goalposts without contravening any of the above rules.



Something about your post caught my eye. One moment we are Beato, the next moment we are making Battler faces! As I've already mentioned, Ryukishi controls both Meta-Battler and Beato. I guess the more accurate designation for Ryukishi is RyuBattleBeato who has the better bargain in both roles, and the players of this game are BeatoBattlers doomed to getting the short end of the stick in both roles?

The naming reminds me of a super robot anime now. Ni-paa...
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Old 2009-08-21, 05:14   Link #1883
ChaosDimension
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Quote:
The problem I approached however is this: which are clues and which are red herrings? To this day, even with red text, there is still the matter of ironing out what to consider as empirically valid and which can be taken with a grain of salt. As you have said, we must dance to the tune of Ryukishi's clues, but that's more of necessity than habit or somesuch. As of Ep5 I still have no idea which to take as trues clues and which must be tossed out. With that in mind, I still find it difficult to seek the implications of his clues when I still don't know which are clues with vital implications.
But that's the beauty of this game, no theory is exactly the same as another person. Ryukishi is basically telling us, "tell me and everybody else what you think." Share and figure this out together. I think Ryukishi believes that there no wrong answer here, everyone has their viewpoints. Some people trust the red other people think its a tool that's advantageous to the witches. Myself, I believe the red is all a sham, language is pretty easily manipulated and with the right amount of word-twisting it can easily mean something different than what it really is trying to convey. Not to mention lost in translation(no offense to the translator).

Quote:
This is why I'm willingly letting myself be led by the nose. As it stands I find that there is still not enough to go on, very few clues who's validity can be ascertained. I cannot as of yet seek the overaching implications of current information because we'd have an assload, then the problem of sorting them out from the false ones. With what we have we still need to stick to our metaworld assumptions because that is all we have to go with as of now.
So what you're basically saying is that you want the picture to on auto-mode and put it self together piece by piece then when it gets to about 90% then we should start theorizing? Isn't the whole point of the mystery novel getting clues and clues and trying to put it all together even if you only have 1% of the puzzle to work with? Sure the difficulty is about 7 episodes long but that's just an analogy for a huge ass puzzle. I think instead of holding back and waiting for your theory to be proven/disaproven(then reveal it or not) you should just throw it out there anyway. Who cares if you're wrong, I mean I had crazy ass theories every episode and they were disproven on the next one. But who says that I can't have a new theory when episode 6 hits?

Quote:
In my opinion, seeking the implications of what Ryukishi is giving us is premature because... well he hasn't given us enough to work with yet. We are still dependent on what he brain produces, and we haven't been given enough definitive content to work it out.
See I thought that before pre-episode 5 but now, he's definitely giving us hints, real hints. By using Dine,Knox he is referencing great mystery authors, that probably means this story would be of the same caliber as theirs. And by referencing their commandments he is saying this will fullfill mystery fan's expectations. But technically saying that there's too little information to deduce the real culprit from what Ryukishi has given us is like looking down on the Ryukishi himself. Here Van Dine's #15

Quote:
The truth of the problem must at all times be apparent — provided the reader is shrewd enough to see it. By this I mean that if the reader, after learning the explanation for the crime, should reread the book, he would see that the solution had, in a sense, been staring him in the face-that all the clues really pointed to the culprit — and that, if he had been as clever as the detective, he could have solved the mystery himself without going on to the final chapter. That the clever reader does often thus solve the problem goes without saying.
Basically what you're saying is Ryukishi is showing us a picture of a duck for 6 Episodes then bam Ep7, it really was a cow. I do not think Ryukishi would do that. So have more faith in the guy, the story could be solvable at episode 1 as it can be on episode 5, we don't need epsiode 7 and a half before we can truly know the culprit. We knew it from episode 1, he just threw some crazy shit at us to throw us off but he includes factual stuff too. It wouldn't be a mystery novel if he just gave us true facts and not throw curveballs at us wouldn't it?
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Old 2009-08-21, 05:21   Link #1884
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
But that's not the point of my post. I merely wanted to start a new line of thought, look around the chessboard rather than always from the sides, and see what bears fruit. The goalposts may yet change still as we have about 2 more episodes to go? There's so many holes that we can arrange the facts to form part of one picture and rearrange them to form part of another, and they both look equally probable at the moment. My actions would be to propose yet another arrangement to put the facts we now have in and fit more puzzle pieces as we go along.
I got what you meant and I understood it. It's just that, for me, it's hard to look around the chessboard when I don't exactly know the exact contours of this chessboard. Or should I say umm there's isn't enough chessboard yet to know how to go around it.

Argh nosebleed.

What I mean is that it's hard to check around the facts when there isn't enough facst to go around on. I find doing it difficult right now because there isn't enough definite substance to measure.

Jebus I need a better analogy give me a moment.

I'm a medical student so let me use a tumor as an analogy. A tumor is hard to detect because you sort of need a certain physical size before it is realistically detecable. Before you reach this point, usually 10^9 cell mass, it's useless and difficult to ascertain the nature of this tumor because there is not enough cell mass to find it. However once you reach about this mass of cells you can finally see and detect the tumor and learn about it. At this time with boundaries set you can see if it is benign or malignant, a myoma or sarcoma, etc.

Ok that was needlesly convoluted metaphoric point.

Quote:
So what you're basically saying is that you want the picture to on auto-mode and put it self together piece by piece then when it gets to about 90% then we should start theorizing? Isn't the whole point of the mystery novel getting clues and clues and trying to put it all together even if you only have 1% of the puzzle to work with? Sure the difficulty is about 7 episodes long but that's just an analogy for a huge ass puzzle. I think instead of holding back and waiting for your theory to be proven/disaproven(then reveal it or not) you should just throw it out there anyway. Who cares if you're wrong, I mean I had crazy ass theories every episode and they were disproven on the next one. But who says that I can't have a new theory when episode 6 hits?
That's relative. It really depends on the mental capabilities of the player. The ability to theorize depends on your own abilities, it's just that in my case I can't make valid hypotheses as it stands. Ep4 blew out 75% of my theories and I intend to stay away from too many theories.

It's more part in parcel of my education and training. As a biologist and medical student it is dangerous for me to make too many thoeries, even the crazy ass ones, because we go by the belief that Ocham was right. Too many theories bog down the thought process especially the ones that aren't very much backed by data. Too many theories can block out your views that may be closer to the truth than the rest. The scientific method extends to my appraoch to Umineko. Likewise I make the minimum number of theories, back them up with data I learn, and toss them to the shredder if they are wrong or misdirected.
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Old 2009-08-21, 05:22   Link #1885
MeisterBabylon
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Ah another rule!

E) RyuBattleBeato cannot completely contravene the precedents of the great mystery authors. It would do him better to come as close to one as possible.

The old rule E) becomes rule F). Ni-paa...



*hi fives fellow medical student*

And I think I got your analogy, don't know if any others got it...
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-08-21 at 05:32. Reason: offtopic removed
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Old 2009-08-21, 05:41   Link #1886
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That's relative. It really depends on the mental capabilities of the player. The ability to theorize depends on your own abilities, it's just that in my case I can't make valid hypotheses as it stands. Ep4 blew out 75% of my theories and I intend to stay away from too many theories.

It's more part in parcel of my education and training. As a biologist and medical student it is dangerous for me to make too many thoeries, even the crazy ass ones, because we go by the belief that Ocham was right. Too many theories bog down the thought process especially the ones that aren't very much backed by data. Too many theories can block out your views that may be closer to the truth than the rest. The scientific method extends to my appraoch to Umineko. Likewise I make the minimum number of theories, back them up with data I learn, and toss them to the shredder if they are wrong or misdirected.
I think you have misunderstood me. What I'm trying to say is that theories evolve. I'm not saying that since episode 3 disproves this part of your theory you should scrap the whole theory altogether. I'm saying you should work around the curveballs that were thrown at you and instead revise that part. Sure you might be revising the 3 AND 4 but you still have ep1&2 part that are still holding ground, so you can go on from that. I too agree that too many theories is just going to hold you back but if you got one strong one, then you're on the right path even if you think Episode 5 will disprove the whole thing. Which I highly doubt.

Also I don't think the scientific method work well against mystery novels. Especially since we are up against witches after all
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Old 2009-08-21, 06:04   Link #1887
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Originally Posted by ChaosDimension View Post
I think you have misunderstood me. What I'm trying to say is that theories evolve. I'm not saying that since episode 3 disproves this part of your theory you should scrap the whole theory altogether. I'm saying you should work around the curveballs that were thrown at you and instead revise that part. Sure you might be revising the 3 AND 4 but you still have ep1&2 part that are still holding ground, so you can go on from that. I too agree that too many theories is just going to hold you back but if you got one strong one, then you're on the right path even if you think Episode 5 will disprove the whole thing. Which I highly doubt.

Also I don't think the scientific method work well against mystery novels. Especially since we are up against witches after all
That is, of course, if witches DO exist.

DUNDUNDUN!!
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Old 2009-08-21, 06:10   Link #1888
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And as the absolute devil's advocate, I'm still trying to build a case where both are correct.

Because sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic, and the present time of the meta-world is oddly unstated.
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Old 2009-08-22, 11:32   Link #1889
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Recently read about this on 2ch discussion thread...Ryukishi07's mistake #3? Real confirmation of Shannon=Kanon theory? (I'm actually not a huge fan of this despite always talking about this )

Spoiler for ep5's autumn card:
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Old 2009-08-22, 12:32   Link #1890
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Recently read about this on 2ch discussion thread...Ryukishi07's mistake #3? Real confirmation of Shannon=Kanon theory? (I'm actually not a huge fan of this despite always talking about this )

Spoiler for ep5's autumn card:
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-08-22, 12:54   Link #1891
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Spoiler for Ep 5:
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Old 2009-08-22, 13:03   Link #1892
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Spoiler for EP5:
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Old 2009-08-22, 13:03   Link #1893
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Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Maybe they don#t have a relation to the baby but to the servant who was with the baby or something
Incidentally, wasn't Shannon described as "the maid's stepdaughter"?
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Old 2009-08-22, 13:07   Link #1894
Klashikari
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If you REALLY want to go this way, NO character are ever confirmed, age, relationship or even gender.
I understand some information can be doubted, but at some point, if you break some premises, just do for everything then...
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Old 2009-08-22, 13:25   Link #1895
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Spoiler for Ep 5:
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Spoiler for EP5:
:|
Spoiler for EP 5:
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Old 2009-08-22, 13:40   Link #1896
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If you REALLY want to go this way, NO character are ever confirmed, age, relationship or even gender.
I understand some information can be doubted, but at some point, if you break some premises, just do for everything then...
Well we are already doubting Kanon/shannon's gender and existence so doubting their age isn't that out of place is it?

Quote:
Incidentally, wasn't Shannon described as "the maid's stepdaughter"?
The reason I thought of it
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Old 2009-08-22, 13:47   Link #1897
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Doutbing the presentation of 2 characters is fundamentally different from doubting the premise and confirmation from the knowledge of a character.
Battler and even Gohda mentioned about Shannon's "career" which isn't even subject to interpretation, but pure knowledge.

Absolutely not the same as people claiming Kanon = Shannon thing, especially they generally admit the two of them exist, but one died at some point before/during the plot.
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Old 2009-08-22, 15:00   Link #1898
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While it's plausible to doubt all the info we are given, especially some that are easily to manipulate (ie, who can be sure that Sayo was 6 when she started working? Maybe she faked her age? They are all orphans anyway, not like they have birth certificates), I have got to agree that we should really not go overboard with the claims, or once again, we would become all paranoid like back in ep2.

Rule #9 sure opened tons of room of manipulation.
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Old 2009-08-22, 15:43   Link #1899
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I also think that if we begin doubting fundamental things like these we can just claim about everything as ambiguous, fake, false oder whatever and if anything is possible there would be infinite possibilities for the whole outcome of the franchise and where's the fun for the readers then? I know that the meta-world works this way to a certain extent but if it was intended to work in the same way for the readers then there would be no point in creating theories at all since there would be too many possibilities and therefore your own theory would even more likely turn out as false.

Spoiler for EP5:

Last edited by marebito; 2009-08-22 at 15:56.
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Old 2009-08-24, 12:00   Link #1900
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This is my first post here, eep. H-hello forums~

I've been lurking for a while and just now got up the courage to post. So here's my long and rambling theory, or collection of related theories, on the identity of Beatrice and the existence of the game world. EP5 may deny/confirm this theory, no idea since I've only glanced at a couple spoilers. Spoilers are so tempting .___.

It's riddled with holes and doesn't explain everything, and some of the ideas in it have been repeated already... so sorry if there's something I didn't think of that can easily disprove all of it T_T

I'm terrible at coherent thought so it's in bullet form; some of the listed items may contradict one another because of the non-coherence.

Spoiler for eps 1-4, WARNING TEXT WALL:

And that's it, feel free to comment or tear apart as you will.
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