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Old 2009-08-22, 21:52   Link #241
Triple_R
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It's not really a question of whether or not they're at the center of the story, and/or for how long - it's a question of how Mary Suish/Gary Stuish any OC character is.

Loads of main protagonists spend virtually the entire time at the center of the story, but they never come across as a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu.

The problem comes when the OC is more well-liked than all the canon characters, is presented as more competent than all the canon characters, etc...

A story can be told from an OC's perspective, and s/he can be the principle focus, but as long as the character has flaws/weaknesses it's not necessarily a big deal.
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Old 2009-08-22, 22:40   Link #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's not really a question of whether or not they're at the center of the story, and/or for how long - it's a question of how Mary Suish/Gary Stuish any OC character is.

Loads of main protagonists spend virtually the entire time at the center of the story, but they never come across as a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu.

The problem comes when the OC is more well-liked than all the canon characters, is presented as more competent than all the canon characters, etc...

A story can be told from an OC's perspective, and s/he can be the principle focus, but as long as the character has flaws/weaknesses it's not necessarily a big deal.
I would agree with that, but I know people that would disagree. They would say that any OC that is THE very center of a story is automatically a Sue/Stu, regardless of how many flaws they have or how the other character treat them.
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Old 2009-08-22, 22:48   Link #243
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And then there are people who argue that any OC at all is automatically a Sue/Stu, simply on the grounds that they're an OC.
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Old 2009-08-22, 22:51   Link #244
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
And then there are people who argue that any OC at all is automatically a Sue/Stu, simply on the grounds that they're an OC.
Those people are idiots, IMO.
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Old 2009-08-22, 22:54   Link #245
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
And then there are people who argue that any OC at all is automatically a Sue/Stu, simply on the grounds that they're an OC.
...

"OC" means "Original Character", right?

I've used original characters before simply to flesh places out - i.e. I needed somebody to be Prince of a certain place, so I created a Prince for that place... and then he got maybe two scenes in a 20-chapter fanfic. I don't see how such a character can be a Sue/Stu, lol.
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Old 2009-08-22, 22:58   Link #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I needed somebody to be Prince of a certain place, so I created a Prince for that place... and then he got maybe two scenes in a 20-chapter fanfic. I don't see how such a character can be a Sue/Stu, lol.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...nMarySueTraits

Look at the fourth-to-last item under "story elements."
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Old 2009-08-22, 23:02   Link #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...nMarySueTraits

Look at the fourth-to-last item under "story elements."
LOL!

Good one, KS.
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Old 2009-08-22, 23:55   Link #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's not really a question of whether or not they're at the center of the story, and/or for how long - it's a question of how Mary Suish/Gary Stuish any OC character is.

Loads of main protagonists spend virtually the entire time at the center of the story, but they never come across as a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu.

The problem comes when the OC is more well-liked than all the canon characters, is presented as more competent than all the canon characters, etc...

A story can be told from an OC's perspective, and s/he can be the principle focus, but as long as the character has flaws/weaknesses it's not necessarily a big deal.
That's mostly how it is. For me, I try to be half and half with it sense we have two sides. The faction that knows about the truth of Haruhi, and the other half that does not. You can give your own OCs a decent amount of attention in the story, but you can't block everyone out.

I'm a veteran writer of OC stories, so I think there's plenty of easy criteria into making a good original character. And if anyone is thinking about doing it, you can shoot me a PM or we can talk about it here.

To be honest, one of the reasons I didn't fear making an OC in this fandom is because the general lack of them here. This isn't a harem (isn't not the focus) or shonen show that's a complete breeding ground for OCs. So because of that, I didn't have a fear. And you don't have to make him that fifth slider or the person who wins Haruhi's heart, you have the option to do whatever you want with them.

Now, with JonBob's case, you make really good original characters. However, yours have an understandable basis. Haruhi parents are not dead or missing or on constant business trips, so we are curious to see one's interpretation of them. The same can be applied for the other espers or aliens found around the school or even some of Kyon's classmates. Circumstance is an understandable cause for OCs.

And this also makes me say, if someone can find me a nice original character based story in Haruhi, I'd love to give it a read. Here's mine since this thread appears to update rather fast... http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4696317
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Old 2009-08-23, 05:30   Link #249
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
And then there are people who argue that any OC at all is automatically a Sue/Stu, simply on the grounds that they're an OC.
I think this, and I think I'm perfectly justified in doing so.

I've NEVER seen a fanfic where an OC has worked as a character, ever. No, I don't want examples, this is my opinion and it's in fact the reason I no longer read fanfiction.

They way I see it, if you really want to write about your OC, please, for the love of god, write your own original work.


Edit: By "OC" I mean exactly that, "original character"... Haruhi's parents, say, or any of the 1-5 students wouldn't count, as they're actually characters in canon...
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Old 2009-08-23, 07:27   Link #250
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You've been streaming fanfiction.net to long then. There are quite allot of fanfiction that feature original characters that work perfectly well. The problem is that for every one of them, they're about 35 other really short drabbles which feature a witless sue.


Of course maybe it helps that I've taken looks at allot of those older fanfiction sites (While they were still active) that operated in the days before fanfiction.net became dominant. The internet overall was more exclusive back then. meaning not every 14 year old had access to a computer, much less a decent website to demonstrate their rather...bad work. There was still crap, but it wasn't the constant churning of mediocrity that you have on ff.net today.
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Old 2009-08-23, 14:23   Link #251
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Of course maybe it helps that I've taken looks at allot of those older fanfiction sites (While they were still active) that operated in the days before fanfiction.net became dominant. The internet overall was more exclusive back then. meaning not every 14 year old had access to a computer, much less a decent website to demonstrate their rather...bad work. There was still crap, but it wasn't the constant churning of mediocrity that you have on ff.net today.
"Thing were better when I was younger"?
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Old 2009-08-23, 14:46   Link #252
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Yeah, I have to agree that crap is shoveled in to FF.net a lot of often than when I first started. It can be a pain figuring out which fics are good and which ones aren't.
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Old 2009-08-23, 14:47   Link #253
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
"Thing were better when I was younger"?
I'm not saying the fan fiction was better back then. I'm saying it was probably slightly easier to find good stuff than than it is today.
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Old 2009-08-23, 14:49   Link #254
Kaisos Erranon
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I'm not saying the fan fiction was better back then. I'm saying it was probably slightly easier to find good stuff than than it is today.
Right, thought so.

My earlier response was just what your post sounded like to me, and I dislike that fallacy.
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Old 2009-08-23, 15:07   Link #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Right, thought so.

My earlier response was just what your post sounded like to me, and I dislike that fallacy.
Well, as time goes on, some things tend to get better, and other things often get worse. It's kind of a trade off.

For example, this very medium that we're using right now to communicate with didn't exist a mere twenty years ago (not on a public level, anyway) - for most of us, then, I'd imagine that this is a very positive change.

On the other hand, I've read that people are more out of shape physically today than they used to be, and perhaps that goes back to the internet as well.

So... I don't think what Roger is saying is a "fallacy", necessarily. Somethings were better in the past, and somethings are better today.
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Old 2009-08-23, 15:24   Link #256
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I can see it being like that. Venues like Fanfiction.net DO provide an easy venue for aspiring authors to have an easy process for getting their work up and read by allot of people, so overall you probably have a total larger number of quality fanfics out...of course you gotta be prepared to go look for them.
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Old 2009-08-23, 18:21   Link #257
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Originally Posted by Jonbob0008 View Post
Yeah, I have to agree that crap is shoveled in to FF.net a lot of often than when I first started. It can be a pain figuring out which fics are good and which ones aren't.
It is hard to find some. And looking for original characters on the website is a pain too. But it does make you feel really good to find great fanfiction. Especially if the series ended on a sour note or when through turmoil. (I bet many Haruhi fans were scrambling during Endless Eight) But you can always write your own if you get the influence.

I think another thing worth considering is the size of the fanfiction. Haruhi didn't have as many as I thought it would and it goes slow enough for people to stop and look at stories. It doesn't go too fast and isn't consistently filled with tripe or other bad stories. And not every Haruhi story I see is romantic, so it isn't doomed at all.
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Old 2009-08-24, 17:17   Link #258
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Abrupt subject change, and hopefully not in any way connected with the Sturgeon's Law discussion, but I've had an idea bouncing in my head lately.

We see a bunch of Kyon POV fics, and 3rd person POV fics, and a sprinkling of Yuki and Haruhi ones, but very few from Mikuru's side of the fence. So I got to thinking, why not fix that by filling in (read: make up from whole cloth) her backstory and let Mikuru Big tell us about her very first field assignment.

Thoughts?
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Old 2009-08-24, 19:23   Link #259
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I can't say if it is related to the Sturgeon's Law discussion. I haven't read much of this thread...

Its an interesting idea. Might be mentioned in canon but hell, I'm interested in seeing people's own perspectives on said matters. I say go for it.
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Old 2009-08-24, 19:26   Link #260
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Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
Abrupt subject change, and hopefully not in any way connected with the Sturgeon's Law discussion, but I've had an idea bouncing in my head lately.

We see a bunch of Kyon POV fics, and 3rd person POV fics, and a sprinkling of Yuki and Haruhi ones, but very few from Mikuru's side of the fence. So I got to thinking, why not fix that by filling in (read: make up from whole cloth) her backstory and let Mikuru Big tell us about her very first field assignment.

Thoughts?
Interesting. I like the idea of it. It's certainly worth exploring. Although I doubt it'll be popular, but whatever. Not everyone is an attention whore (like me ).

I have read a few fic with Mikuru's POV done. One was crap, and the other was decent.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5317336/...uzumiya_Haruhi

That story is told from the POV of nearly all the major characters, even Taniguchi and Tsuruya. It's pretty good, and worth talking a look.
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