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Old 2009-08-23, 01:52   Link #221
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
It's not just the effect of different mediums. They somehow messed up the plot, change the time of persional revelations thus rendered some of Nina's actions quite unexplained. On the top ofit they added some unwanted extra. It's not just the effect of cutting out scenes and internal monolouges.Even without that she would show a face closer to the LN's.
True maybe if we analyse througly her actions she may remain the same, but most of the viewers don't have time or mood for that.
So, the viewers have no responsibility to look deeper in a story, must the anime spoon fed them? It's Animes that make you think that I enjoy the fact that others have an aversion to thinking while watching Anime doesn't really make me feel any pity for them when they misinterpret stuff. Complex character usually are controversial and I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. The sequence of events were changed and some new added but I felt the changes work out fairly well. Differences were sorted out faster in the LN but stretched out in the Anime but it was fairly interesting drama and definitely not unwanted in my mind. Her actions were still reasonable and understandable if you took the time to try to understand.
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Old 2009-08-23, 03:20   Link #222
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Somehow, the notion of "complex characters" and this anime do not seem to get along so well, IMHO.
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Old 2009-08-23, 03:24   Link #223
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Well, but you make characters(at least on the "good guys' side") likable. And if they end up frustrated over her actions is not a good thing. You know many people watchs anime for fun and they don't start analysing the characters. That's why I think they should've made her more understandable. Not to mention many times her actions were controlled by her emotions in contrast with her Light Novel counterpart.
In short: They messed up her the most in the anime.
(well, the second one's Layfon then)
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Old 2009-08-23, 05:36   Link #224
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Somehow, the notion of "complex characters" and this anime do not seem to get along so well, IMHO.
Useless comments are useless. IMHO.

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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Well, but you make characters(at least on the "good guys' side") likable. And if they end up frustrated over her actions is not a good thing. You know many people watchs anime for fun and they don't start analysing the characters. That's why I think they should've made her more understandable. Not to mention many times her actions were controlled by her emotions in contrast with her Light Novel counterpart.
In short: They messed up her the most in the anime.
(well, the second one's Layfon then)
Well its a difference in what you characterize as "likable". If the viewer takes the time to understand her actions then they aren't going to be frustrated and even then some characters are meant to frustrate the viewer i.e Shinji from NGE. I found Nina extremely likable with her flaws but her own striving to be get stronger and learn more. That others might not doesn't really bother me. You can't please everyone and trying is a recipe for failure. I watch anime and read books for analyzing characters like this so I don't see why they should dumb down shows for people who can't take the time like I do to properly analyze a show. All Anime fans aren't here for the MOE and the fanboy/girling of cliched anime characters and tropes. Give me an Evangelion, Revolutionary Girl Utena, give me drama, tragedy, Give me EMOTION!
In short: They made her a lot better in the anime.
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Old 2009-08-23, 05:52   Link #225
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Really? Well, then it's a clear difference in oppinion. I like LN Nina much more.
And you know the authors need to make characters likable both for casual viewers and "pro-analysers" to make it really good. It's like a cake. You can lick the cream and it's delicious, but you can eeat the whole cake and it's still delicious. Otherwise the cake's no good.
If the mayority can't understand her actions they label it as unreasonable(or even may artifical). If you can't understand a character you have a harder time for liking it.
And we know well the mayority of anime-watchers fit into the 'casual viewer' cathegory.
And anyways even if they explain Nina's motives it doesn't mean they really dumbed her down. Quite the opposite, we can understand her clearly and know who she really is.
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Old 2009-08-23, 08:56   Link #226
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Useless comments are useless. IMHO.
You should post less, then. Just saying.

But, in all seriousness, how can you claim ANY character in the anime to be complex? I really do not see where you're coming from. They're all pretty plain, if you ask me (Nina is an overachiever, Layfon is a fighter looking for purpose, Felli is an emotionless doll who ends up finding some feelings, and so on). Doesn't make it any less fun, but complex? I just don't see it. Now, if you cannot keep it civil, don't even bother to respond, ok?
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Old 2009-08-23, 13:10   Link #227
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You should post less, then. Just saying.

But, in all seriousness, how can you claim ANY character in the anime to be complex? I really do not see where you're coming from. They're all pretty plain, if you ask me (Nina is an overachiever, Layfon is a fighter looking for purpose, Felli is an emotionless doll who ends up finding some feelings, and so on). Doesn't make it any less fun, but complex? I just don't see it. Now, if you cannot keep it civil, don't even bother to respond, ok?
I'm just pointing out the facts don't hate me because I talk straight. You shouldn't have posted in the first place if you didn't have anything worthwhile to post. I'll entertain you though.

A lot of the show has to do with the relationship between Nina and Layfon. Him, growing up in a harsh life and him developing skills in order to maintain the Orphanage but in doing so he believes that anything he does is justified, this later comes in conflict with Nina whose views on the military arts is more noble and idealized. Nina generally at start doesn't understand him in many ways and he doesn't understand her and likewise the views of those in the Orphanage who felt betrayed once they found out about his illegal activities.

Also Nina views on strength. She wishes strength to protect the city and believes that weakness is a sin. This comes more into play when she compares her power with Layfon. She starts doubting if she is in fact strong enough to protect the city and if she isn't then doesn't that make her weak? This is when she starts training secretly but her personality makes her put too much pressure on her own self and she often tries to take on these things by herself. Even then she is constantly trying to understand Layfon and others. She tries to question Layfon a number of times only to get evaded or he outright misrepresents his motives. This put her in a precarious situation since she has to try to balance the best for her team and her own feelings. She certainly didn't hate Layfon and realized the city needed his power but also felt conflicted by if the fact that his beliefs could cause problems later on if true and her own feelings are betrayal because of the revelation.

The Student Council President unlike her was willing to employ any method to save the school but then again we see with Dein Dee story that employing any method doesn't always lead to the best results. In this story we see that while having strong ideals she still warned Dee in order to try to save him by convincing him to stop taking the drug. She more than willing to give him a chance to redeem himself instead of turning him in without the opportunity for him to decide.

The SCP was imo also more than willing, at least at the start to use Layfon as only a tool while Nina wanted to be a friend and for him to rely on them as a team. Nina also puts a lot of the blame on herself and wonders if her actions were truly right many times. We see this in her talk with Leerin and then again at the end of the series. Both Nina and Layfon become stronger people when they rely on each other inside of take things on alone. This is kind of ruined by the power ranger ending but I digress.

Layfon is very similar to her but I don't want to go into to much about him as this isn't his thread and that be another few paragraphs...

Felli was never an emotionless doll. She just couldn't properly express her emotions on her face. She did however have many issues with being used and that why she refused to help and often times half-assed her skills so people wouldn't realize how powerful she was. She had a few other things about her character but that's the meat of it. I also don't want to get into her too much.

I pulled this all out of my head after not watching the show since it ended so I might have missed something and I shorten some analyzes down to bare bones but still Nina is a fairly complex character. If you honestly believe that she just an overachiever then I think you might have slept through the series.
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Old 2009-08-23, 13:27   Link #228
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Hoho! Hold your fangs! If someone hasn't noticed it or has percieved otherwise it doesn't mean he or she put lesser effort to understand the character. It's just that everyone sees the world differently. Like Nina had a hard time to understand Layfon at first.
And even if theyx haven't spent as much time and energy to understand the characters then it again doesn't mean they had little interest in it or something like that. As I said everyone sees the world differently. It also means they put their effort notice other things for example. Like the consistency of the story, the plot itself or simply the whole Regios world.
That's all. Please don't jump to conclusions that fast.
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Old 2009-08-23, 13:42   Link #229
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I still don't see what's so complex about Nina, even after that overly long wall of text - you simply outlined what anyone who watched the series saw. But if you do really want to over-analise her to death and find hidden meanings to her actions or whatnot, then be my guest, bub.
Don't be disheartened when not everyone agrees with your interpretations, tho (hint: I don't. I still find her character very straightforward, and not all that deep or complex or whatever it is you're trying to prove here - not to say I don't find her interesting, or a nice character; one thing does not negate the other), or even not find your points terribly interesting - and, at least, try to be less nasty about such disagreements, in the future. I don't really care for childish bantering, myself - unless it's in good spirits, which was clearly not the case with your post.

Also, I'll be the judge on what I consider a worthwhile post, thank you very much.
See ya - or not.
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Old 2009-08-23, 14:05   Link #230
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I still don't see what's so complex about Nina, even after that overly long wall of text - you simply outlined what anyone who watched the series saw. But if you do really want to over-analise her to death and find hidden meanings to her actions or whatnot, then be my guest, bub.
Don't be disheartened when not everyone agrees with your interpretations, tho (hint: I don't. I still find her character very straightforward, and not all that deep or complex or whatever it is you're trying to prove here - not to say I don't find her interesting, or a nice character; one thing does not negate the other), or even not find your points terribly interesting - and, at least, try to be less nasty about such disagreements, in the future. I don't really care for childish bantering, myself - unless it's in good spirits, which was clearly not the case with your post.

Also, I'll be the judge on what I consider a worthwhile post, thank you very much.
See ya - or not.
You don't really address any of my points and dismiss them wholesale. That's the usual M.O with you so I'm not surprised honestly. She's not a character who operates one on concept and or one motive and has a lot of emotions going on. You don't have to find her complex. I knew that whole time when I wrote the post that you'd never agree on complexity and instead hide behind the immortal shield of "my opinion". You don't supply what you believe is a complex character to even counter my points but instead rely on outright dismissal.

This is the problem with opinions people believe that reasoning, logic and examples are trumped by it so they hid behind it whenever they feel the need. I gave you my reasoning and you gave me "I don't agree" If you spent as much time coming up with that as analyzing characters in the shows it's no wonder you don't find anything complex about her.
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Old 2009-08-23, 15:09   Link #231
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Well, everyone's deffinition on complex characters differ a bit the very least.
Example:For somone who watched many harem animes even the two dimensional characters could be complex(the very least more complex than characters only defined by their archetype). While for somone who read many serious novels or anything with really developed and difficult characters it means something really outstanding.
Actually Layfon surely is a complex character or at least clearly not definable. He's a serious fighter with mean love for Military Arts and believes everything he done was the best choice. And he tends to sulk and don't want mto fight because of his failure. He's trapped between two really differing desires. But enough of him. Let's talk about Nina.
She's our "paladin" character. Honor above anything else, clear ideal, serious determination, mean thinking about her actions and correctly freflects on them. That's Nina's outer layer of personality. But it's something she forced on herself. The fairy's sacrafice had a great effect on her and she tries with all her might to help anyone she can. And perhaps she sees weakness as a sin, but it's only natural for a "paladin" and she really don't like failures.
As I said she forces herself. She wants to discover every secret of the worldand travel every part of it. But her responsibilites binds her on Zuellni. She's much more childish than she looks like.
She's similar to Layfon on that her love/desire and her determination/responsibility conflicts with each other.
So she's really not as simple as she seems. But maybe she's not complex enough for you. For me(who watched over dozens of harem animes) she's is.
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Old 2009-08-23, 15:14   Link #232
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Slick_rick, your reasoning holds no water. You have not listed any kind of hint for complexity or depth, you simply outlined whatever happened to the character during the course of the series. I didn't say that as my opinion. I stated it as a fact - the matter about opinions came later on. Like I said before, you're welcome to over-analise any and everything, but don't be mad when others don't really see all the "hidden" layers of meaning your superior analytical mind does. They most likely just don't care enough to.

And my usual M.O.? I've only discussed with you once, and if I remember right, you did not provide much fun there, either - instead, you went on wild tangents like you do now, trying to make yourself sound oh so intelligent for coming up with different theories for characters' motives and whatnot, but ended up failing miserably. I thought you wanted to discuss, and maybe had gotten more civil, but your points don't really merit such a thing.

I save my analises for shows that really allow themselves such treatment, like Ergo Proxy, Paranoia Agent, Eden of The East, Cross Game, Bakemonogatari and the like. Standard action fare is meant for fun. Not word games. But you're welcome to disagree - like you most likely will. I really don't care to argue for the sake of finding out who's got the biggest... argument. So, I'll leave you to it.
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Old 2009-08-24, 20:29   Link #233
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If you're saving your analysis to other shows, then you're more or less admitting that you didn't bother to give much consideration into the character's complexity. Previous posts carry enough detail for one to see the multi-dimensional personality, but I shall write a couple of things based on them.

So we have Nina, who at first could be written off as the lawful good paladin leader of this RPG party, there are characters like that with shallow reasoning. However, we're presented with her past and motives, then her interaction with certain individuals. She leans her alignment at time: to Chaotic Good during Dinn Dee matter, to Lawful Neutral after Layfon's secret is uncovered and finally to Chaotic Neutral about the haikizoku issue. She definitely doesn't act solely on just one principle, she has priorities: Folk, fairies, friends and herself. Based on how the confronting problem presents itself, she'll bend either the rules or her relationship. But there's always a solid reason if not reasoning behind her reactions to those, be it logic or emotion. She stops and thinks when she has the chance (about Layfon, Dinn Dee, city's future) but may act on the impulse as well, especially under stress. (Layfon's secret, haikizoku, match vs first platoon) Thus, she feels more human and realistic than your average anime character. (watched some of the shows you mentioned and some of them have quite synthetic lead characters to be honest)
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Old 2009-08-24, 21:00   Link #234
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If you're saving your analysis to other shows, then you're more or less admitting that you didn't bother to give much consideration into the character's complexity.
Not really. It just means I save my analysis for other shows, or, to put it even more simply, that I don't think this particular show deserves such attention to detail. Sorry, but this was a fun ride, not an extremely taxing one on the intellectual side, to be quite blunt. Note I'm still maintaining I deeply enjoyed the ride - don't sour it, please.
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Previous posts carry enough detail for one to see the multi-dimensional personality, but I shall write a couple of things based on them.
And yet, all you did was provide me with examples of what the series did show us. There's not really much more to wonder about the characters, other than what we've been presented. Now, the novels are an altogether different matter, but I'm only talking about the anime.

In all honesty, feel free to continue your discussion. I was only stating my opinion on the matter, after being slighted for a joke.

Now, if you sincerely believe the characters in the shows I mentioned are more vanilla than the ones in CSR... well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, mate.
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Old 2009-08-24, 22:21   Link #235
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Personally guys, people are entitled to his or her own opinion you know. One can think that an anime needs to be analyzed from top to bottom for the characters, while the others can think it's just need to be enjoyed since the characters are quite straightforward with how they act. What makes them complex or not is actually us, except when, well... Let's say it involve yanderes *CoughKaraNoKyoukaiCough* and some others really bipolar personality and actions.

It doesn't change the interesting moments of the series, really. You don't need to convince a person to think that a character in it is complex to make this series, say, unique. Regios is unique in my eye because it can combine fantasy-like RPG element to make a good series in the run. (Well, the end beg to differ, but hey, at least I enjoyed LOL-ing hard here!)

Me, I personally think that Regios both LN and anime is quite straightforward in terms of how their actions speak their personality. Crusade is a different matter from what I read from spoilers though. *Begs ackem sensei to search for the novel these days :'c* But it is my opinion and others can disagree and state their opinion in the exchange. But forcing a view is a different matter
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Old 2009-08-25, 00:54   Link #236
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Right. I watched many harem-animes for just pure LoL-ness. It had really bland characters and hardly any developmentson them, but the extremely hillarious scenes were the reason I watched them.
It's not the complexity of characters that decides a show's enjoyment factor.
But I have to disagree in one thing. Nina wasn't that easily understandable, because we wouldn't have that much debates about her character. And I think the anime-Nina and the LN-Nina is different because the later is my favourite in the Light Novels.

P.S: I would love to read Regios Crusade in english. Dixerio is an interesting character, even if he's "selfish" and probably blinded by revenge.
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Old 2009-08-25, 05:15   Link #237
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And that, as they say, is that. There's not a more subjective topic than what you take out of a work of fiction... and no more recurring argument than "you just didn't pay enough attention".
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Old 2009-08-26, 19:46   Link #238
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Not really. It just means I save my analysis for other shows, or, to put it even more simply, that I don't think this particular show deserves such attention to detail. Sorry, but this was a fun ride, not an extremely taxing one on the intellectual side, to be quite blunt. Note I'm still maintaining I deeply enjoyed the ride - don't sour it, please.
No matter how you word it, it comes across as simply not giving it enough thought. You may think it doesn't deserve it, but this isn't the thread for it and your message asked for a flame when people were having a discussion after giving it a thought. So it really comes as disrespect to intervene in such a way. There are other threads about the anime in general.
Quote:
And yet, all you did was provide me with examples of what the series did show us. There's not really much more to wonder about the characters, other than what we've been presented. Now, the novels are an altogether different matter, but I'm only talking about the anime.

In all honesty, feel free to continue your discussion. I was only stating my opinion on the matter, after being slighted for a joke.

Now, if you sincerely believe the characters in the shows I mentioned are more vanilla than the ones in CSR... well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, mate.
I'd say that Nina is the most complex character of the series, far beyond the nearest competitor, with plentiful background info and development. Otherwise I could agree to a point.

I didn't say 'vanilla', I said synthetic. Which may involve incoherence, unjustifiable actions, non-sense motives or plain stupidity. Just making it different doesn't mean it's granted value.
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Old 2009-08-27, 00:07   Link #239
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sorry, but there's a difference between complex and complete.Nina having explained background and else means for character development/completition. The only thing I could bring up her "dual desire", her real personality and the "make-up" she use almost always, but they're not as much distinguished and I guess the LN didn't built much on it.
In conclusion:LN Nina is a well-created character. I am uncertain about the anime version, but she was interesting too. Wether she's complex or not it'sdepends on personal viewpoint..
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Old 2009-08-27, 04:35   Link #240
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No matter how you word it, it comes across as simply not giving it enough thought. You may think it doesn't deserve it, but this isn't the thread for it and your message asked for a flame when people were having a discussion after giving it a thought. So it really comes as disrespect to intervene in such a way. There are other threads about the anime in general.
Now you're disrespecting me. I was responding to comments about Nina, in her character discussion thread. I don't see a need to use another thread for it, do you? And now, simply because I do not agree with both of your perceived assumptions about her character and made a joke (with a smiley and everything), got a nasty repartee in return and responded to it, in no rude terms, I'm the one asking for a flame?
I simply don't think the character(s) in this show deserve such scrutiny, and no amount of tail wagging is gonna change that, when all you guys can present are what the show itself showed us. Sorry.

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I'd say that Nina is the most complex character of the series, far beyond the nearest competitor, with plentiful background info and development.
You would, wouldn't you?
I didn't see any development, really. She was basically the same character at the beginning and end of the show - I would, honestly, not categorize any of the characters in the show as well-developed, but that's also a speculative and completely subjective point. And I do not want people accusing me of flame-bait again.

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I didn't say 'vanilla', I said synthetic. Which may involve incoherence, unjustifiable actions, non-sense motives or plain stupidity. Just making it different doesn't mean it's granted value.
You could apply those exact same words to every single character in this series, actually. Throwing stones when you have a glass ceiling is not really an advisable course of action, bub.

But, really, I never intended to have such a long-winded discussion. And it should be obvious that not everyone agrees with your points, taking into account the past history of this sub-forum. So, I don't think singling me out is the best idea, either.
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