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Old 2009-08-22, 15:35   Link #2301
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabasco View Post
Oh, no argument there. By 'golden BB effect' I was referring to how a single statistically unlikely event at just the wrong place can wreak havoc, eg the tower collapsing.

I was getting at that even a relatively low power device like a lithium battery can fail catastrophically under the wrong conditions, so it makes sense that an orders of magnitude application like the cartridges could do the same.

Where's that fic posted, anyway? It sounds like it might be interesting.
Here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5195743/1/MSLN_Test_Dummies

The 'Golden BB' effect I like to call 'Murphy's Law AVALANCHE' is actually a bit of a character trait. But with a slight twist. Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong, but there HAS to be something that can/will go wrong. Not just random dominos.
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Old 2009-08-22, 15:54   Link #2302
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Fortunately the shells of Nena's neutron rifle do not fail in such a spectacular manner... ^^;

Think of a capacitor popping and then make that capacitor the size of a shotgun shell, you'll get the idea.
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Old 2009-08-22, 16:01   Link #2303
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Nice to know.

One reason I decided to make cartridges so powerful when they 'breach' is because you have to remember those things give a mage a power boost they then apply to spells that go through buildings like bunker buster bombs.

If I were doing counter-mage tactics, I'd be aiming for the cartridges, rather than the mage. Chances are if you hit the mage, you hurt them. If you hit the cartridges enough to damage them the same level you'd hurt the mage, you blow the mage straight to hell. I figure one of Nanoha's magazines has to be holding enough compressed, stored energy to equal an F-16 loaded up with bombs.

Of course, I'd bet money to say the magazines are armored, and the cartridges themselves aren't merely plastic like a shotgun shell. Probably armored too.
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Old 2009-08-23, 11:38   Link #2304
Tabasco
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Can't be that armored, unless the energy density is something like a nuclear bomb.

Those cartridges aren't more than an inch in diameter, and even some sort of high impact polymer/other armor of your choice is going to need at least a quarter to half inch of thickness to stop anything more powerful than a rifle round.
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Old 2009-08-23, 11:51   Link #2305
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Unless you count the fact that they, and the devices, are appearantly made of magical 'plasteel'.

Light enough to be swung around by a nine-year-old. Strong enough to take explosive impact. Make metallic 'clacking' sounds that aren't pure metal sounds, and aren't plastic sounds. Brightly colored, without the appearent use of paint... Weird stuff.
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Old 2009-08-23, 22:37   Link #2306
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I don't buy that you could do that as a good tactic.

The devices are made of tough stuff. We've seen Bardiche and RH take an exploding Jewel Seed at essentially point-blank range, an explosion that was "loud" enough that the Arthra detected it from several dimensions away. But we know that normal cartridge use isn't on that same energy level (mostly because, otherwise, the Knights would have stood out like comets in A's). That explosion did manage to damage the devices, but they weren't completely wrecked; cracked, but not shattered. Considering that ready-to-use cartridges are in containers that are made of the same stuff, that implies that you'd have to hit it with a tremendous amount of juice in order to bust the cartridges inside - an amount that would knock the mage silly anyway.
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Old 2009-08-23, 23:21   Link #2307
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It might be a situation where whatever process is used to compress the energy into a cartridge, a similar specific process is necessary to get the magic "uncompressed" in explosive fashion. Not unlike nuclear weapons--you can't get a fission reaction just by beating on a warhead with a hammer. Indeed, the cartridge might not even contain "compressed mana" per se, but might be a one-use mechanism to channel mana from an external dimensional source. In that case damaging the cartridge wouldn't blow it up, it would just break it--like smashing a bomb's detonator when it isn't actually attached to any explosive material yet.
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Old 2009-08-23, 23:30   Link #2308
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Except that a charged up Levantine sliced right through Bardiche like a hot knife through butter and later damaged its core... and a charged Graf Eisen chipped away at RH's core like a rocket powered jackhammer. Neither were Jewel seed power, but did significantly more damage to the devices.

Cannon insists that there is some level of magical reinforcing to them, which explains why a magic boost makes a sword that is no more sharp suddenly cut so much better. One should also note that the release from the Jewel seed was not all that physically destructive because there were two considerably less resistant to 'blow-the-f*ck-up' fleshbags named Nanoha and Fate right there standing in the core of the 'blast' holding on to those devices, and that despite the 'nuclear fireball' effect we get to watch, they remained physically unharmed. Even when fate grabbed the seed bare handed.

So it is not a clear cut example.

Though the point is prudent. Good Tactic it is NOT unless you have something designed specificly for dealing with it. You're talking about hitting a moving target the size of your fist with a high power precision attack. Essentially the magical version of "BOOM!" Headshot.

In direct combat with a mage, this may be futile when they actively spot the attacks and are defending. This leaves you with standoff and surprise. Not only do chances of hitting the mark go down with distance, but the mage and/or device are probably in constant motion.

Still, a weakpoint is a weak point, and you must always account for them, as you never know when you may need to, or can exploit it.


EDIT: @ Dezo
In A's, Shamal was charging the cartridges like they were batteries.
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Old 2009-08-24, 01:31   Link #2309
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Well, HE damage isn't the same thing as AP damage when it comes to penetrating armor. ;p

Of course, if you wanted to, you could say that cartridges aren't explosive - that they're juiced up in a magical process, but they aren't just little packets of mana waiting for a firing pin, and unless they're "fired" in the proper manner, they don't explode. Think powergun ammo from Hammers' Slammers - there's lots of ways to bend, fold, spindle, and mutilate those cartridges without causing them to gang-fire, though that's possible under the right conditions.
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Old 2009-08-24, 01:59   Link #2310
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All this talk has me thinking of spellbombs

I do enjoy the talk ^^
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Old 2009-08-24, 04:19   Link #2311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Well, HE damage isn't the same thing as AP damage when it comes to penetrating armor. ;p

Of course, if you wanted to, you could say that cartridges aren't explosive - that they're juiced up in a magical process, but they aren't just little packets of mana waiting for a firing pin, and unless they're "fired" in the proper manner, they don't explode. Think powergun ammo from Hammers' Slammers - there's lots of ways to bend, fold, spindle, and mutilate those cartridges without causing them to gang-fire, though that's possible under the right conditions.
Of course, I DON'T want to.

One, I find cartridges being 'handle with care' safety issues something to give them flare asside from just being 'ammo'.

Two, I'm three chapters and something like fifty thousand words past the scene where I apply them, and a chapter or two ahead of where I first threw in the Checkov's Gun on it. Changing it now would require to change the dialogue of the early scene. (After I find it.) And then rewriting the entire end sequence of chapter four.



Now of course, I don't treat them like grenades waiting to happen. But I make it known in the fic that Cartridges and high intensity Microwaves don't particularly get along.

In fact, catagorizing the punishment I give them. Damaging the magazine doesn't set them off, but it makes RH reject the thing for safety purposes, and even blasted and beaten up they don't go off. Microwaves of course, arc them...

And then I treat the detonation like some kind of incindiary. If one blows, it takes out whatever's near it, and sprays 'sparks' of raw mana all over the place. The sparks themselves behave like superheated molten fragments, torching whatever they touch. (It's raw energy, what do you expect. It's just that it's magic energy so it behaves rather odd. In this case staying in 'spark's rather than just radiating out in a flash of light.) So of course, when one of these sparks lands on or very near another cartridge, they melt it. Boom^2.
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Old 2009-08-24, 11:31   Link #2312
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And of course it doesn't help that there's a walking Murphy's Law nearby to help set them off...
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Old 2009-08-24, 16:14   Link #2313
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Crash says: "Don't remind me..."
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Old 2009-08-24, 16:50   Link #2314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Of course, I DON'T want to.

One, I find cartridges being 'handle with care' safety issues something to give them flare asside from just being 'ammo'.
A plot point I rather liked, actually.

On an unrelated note, I did wonder about the power armor since it brings up an interesting point about their tech in general. The materials the Mids have to work with would make a suit like that possible, if not practical, but never do we see any kind of protection beyond the chestplates the disposa-mages wear.

You'd think that anything that could reduce the amount of power needed for protection would allow them to channel more into attack or mobility, something they obviously sorely need.
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Old 2009-08-24, 18:23   Link #2315
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(shrug) Weight issues? Full armor is heavy and restricts your movement. If a barrier jacket provides most of the protection but is only as restricting as a normal set of clothes, it's probably a superior solution.

We know that Mid does have device-vehicles, like Storm Raider, but that not all their vehicles are devices or even "smart". Why not? Rogue actor problems? Tough to say.

At the end of the day, you're not going to get past "it's a magical girl show and thus the technology must accommodate cute girls in skirts in combat". Even if Nanoha would be better-equipped and better-protected piloting RH in Nanoha Gundam mode, it's just not that kind of show. Same reason that the power armor in Starship Troopers became "minimal armor with exposed faces" for the movie - they didn't want to do a story where most of the characters had their faces covered most of the time. There's not a "good" story reason why. Obviously everyone but Subaru and Ginga could use a magic crash helmet on top of the stuff they normally wear, but it ain't gonna happen, so...
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Old 2009-08-24, 18:52   Link #2316
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Quote:
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We know that Mid does have device-vehicles, like Storm Raider
Isn't Storm Raider a rifle Device and was only temporarily integrated by Vice into the helicopter when he was piloting?
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Old 2009-08-24, 19:04   Link #2317
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Yes.

Storm Raider was the device name, and the helicopter was JF-704 model. It makes sense though to call the Chopper "Storm Raider" while the device is integrated.
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Old 2009-08-24, 21:15   Link #2318
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I did something similar, having Teana integrate Cross Mirage into an aerospace fighter. I was sort of at a loss, since the fighting was in the air, Subaru wasn't involved and Teana can't fly. Had to get her up there somehow.
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Old 2009-08-24, 23:03   Link #2319
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I must state, that even with advanced controls giving the vehicle arcade simplicity... Flying ain't easy without at least ten hours practice. I hope you had her flying the thing like a true novice...
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Old 2009-08-25, 08:49   Link #2320
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She has had a lot of simulator time (it seemed logical, since she can't fly and a lot of the fights are in the air), but this would mark her first live combat flight.
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