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Old 2009-08-25, 14:26   Link #461
Renall
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
This is why I explained why Battler was stuck for this element. I really don't get your point Renall. Really.
My point is that the trial is clearly meaningless in the greater scheme of the story and worthless for providing any information for speculation on what actually happened. I'm cautioning against viewing it with anything but the harshest cynicism, because it is deeply flawed. And I'm not sure it's actually consistent at all, either, but even if it were it is - as you said - fundamentally unfair.

Aspects of the story before this point have been useful both for speculation and entertainment. Ange's story provided reliable information even though it wasn't entirely within the "rules" of the storyline. The meta-trial in ep5 is different. It is very entertaining, but also very distracting, and I think it's done very intentionally to hide something important.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:35   Link #462
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There is really no real need to think that deeply if you consider Lambda and Bern.
Although it is pretty clear they are hiding something, the whole trial system was definitely something you can take for its face value to a certaiin degree (if you ignore the huge chunk of unfair side of it).

Like I explained, no restriction to the red would make things completely in jeopardy. From this very premise, there is no need for a trial, but that would go against the whole point of a "gameboard".
Like Lambda stated before starting Ep5, she said she will "try to follow Beato's usual goof style, with mistakes, extra hints etc". Obviously, that was at first a red herring claim, but in the end, it isn't so far from the truth: she was pretty vague, ambiguous, sailing in both sides as the judge, despite she could refrain confirming some of Erika's theories to let Beato wins/ties.
On the other hand, Bern just wants to crush Beato and Lambda alike. But it would be a bore if everything becomes anticlimatic with a simple red line. Thus you have both witches playing on a tacit sub-game which is the trial, and Battler was caught in it.

I personally don't see the trial similar to what it really should be, but the concept of the trial was definitely consistent, from Bern and Lambda's perspective.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:36   Link #463
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I'm wondering, did EP5 provide any information for Lambda's and Bern's reasons behind this game? I mean, other than possible entertainment.

Also, do you think you can confirm or deny the quote I posted previously Klashikari?
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:38   Link #464
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No, there isn't any real solid fact that can lead to an explanation to this trial. The fact Lambda quickly acknowledged Battler as the endless sorcerer just makes things even more weirdier if you consider her "prime" objective.

And I'm afraid I cannot confirm that, not from what I can remember. Perhaps some people that pay more attention like crazydj or chrono can confirm it or not, but well...
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:42   Link #465
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Then, what about Battler? Wasn't his use of the red abnormal, or is the red something anyone (i.e. other than witches) can use? Was anything about his identity/origin mentioned in the game, or was it left aside?

As for the quote, thanks anyway mate.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:47   Link #466
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No, the red he used wasn't his. He did like Erika: just repeating red from witches, and this "rogue" red is from Virgilia.
And thus, he was struck by Knox 8th commandement.

As for his origin, there was some "clue" for this episode: Battler remembered that Rudolf again told him (in ep5) that he will be probably killed tonight, and he wants to discuss with him. The trick is that he added "it is about your birth".
From this, Meta Battler (second round) used the premise that he might be the mysterious man from 19 years ago. As Dlanor argued he cannot use sixth sense or intuition, his blue becomes effective since he mentioned Rudolf "half" confession + Episode 4 red that he wasn't Asumu's son.
That's all about his origin, but now it is very likely to be relevant to the mystery, as Ryukishi didn't discard it in Ep5. It was slightly freshen up.


As for the quote, it would be easier if we know which character said that, and approximately "when". But I certainly cannot remember Battler saying this when Beato disappears. He was screaming "you idiot!!!!" and things like this.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:53   Link #467
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So, there's the chance he was adopted? But then, he wouldn't share Kinzo's blood. Unless, there's more to that baby than we know.

According to my friend, he said Battler said that when he got killed. It did seem a bit too corny for Umineko, in my opinion.
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Old 2009-08-25, 18:13   Link #468
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I don't remember the exact quote, but Battler did say something sort of like that during the 約束 scene in the ????. Between the "you idiot".
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Old 2009-08-25, 18:48   Link #469
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on the opening of the game, we can see shortly the portrait of virgillia
I wonder if there is both that portrait and one of ange on the game play?
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Old 2009-08-25, 18:51   Link #470
Volcanic
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Originally Posted by mizou View Post
on the opening of the game, we can see shortly the portrait of virgillia
I wonder if there is both that portrait and one of ange on the game play?
Virgilla's "portrait" is actually from the EP4 box art. On the other hand, Ange does not have a portrait of any kind.
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Old 2009-08-26, 01:20   Link #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
My point is that the trial is clearly meaningless in the greater scheme of the story and worthless for providing any information for speculation on what actually happened. I'm cautioning against viewing it with anything but the harshest cynicism, because it is deeply flawed. And I'm not sure it's actually consistent at all, either, but even if it were it is - as you said - fundamentally unfair.

Aspects of the story before this point have been useful both for speculation and entertainment. Ange's story provided reliable information even though it wasn't entirely within the "rules" of the storyline. The meta-trial in ep5 is different. It is very entertaining, but also very distracting, and I think it's done very intentionally to hide something important.
On the contrary, I figure the trial is extremely useful for speculation. Like Battler says near the beginning of EP5, the game is no longer mainly about solving the crimes, but about figuring out the rules and Beato's motives.

In other words, he can't figure out the game board unless he first figures out the Meta World.

While the trial is definitely filled with noise (remember EP1), it also might shed some clues about the motives of each character involved. It might be necessary to pick through the scene carefully before it's possible to find these clues though.

By the way, the whole premise of the trial is ripped to shreds in the ura tea party, so no matter how the details of the trial had turned out, we wouldn't have gotten many useful game board theories from it.

Lastly, I'd just like to clarify something about Battler's red text being rejected.
This doesn't in any way mean that the red text is untrue, or not believed to be true.
Think of it as an illegal wiretap or something. In some real trials, it's possible for someone to be acquitted even when there is no reasonable doubt of their guilt if evidence has been obtained illegally. In certain cases, this is a very reasonable rule to have.

We still don't really know what it means to "win" a game in Umineko, so we can't yet judge whether the rules we see are fair or unfair. At least not with any certainty.
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Old 2009-08-26, 10:00   Link #472
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Originally Posted by Teletha View Post
I don't remember the exact quote, but Battler did say something sort of like that during the 約束 scene in the ????. Between the "you idiot".
Ah, I see, thank you very much.
What was the promise scene about? That'd he'd be the one to kill her?
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Old 2009-08-26, 16:40   Link #473
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I'd like to know if Gaap appears in EP5 before or after
Spoiler for death:
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Old 2009-08-26, 16:45   Link #474
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I'd like to know if Gaap appears in EP5 before or after
Spoiler for death:
Spoiler for EP5:
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Old 2009-08-26, 17:02   Link #475
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Old 2009-08-26, 17:04   Link #476
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Old 2009-08-26, 17:08   Link #477
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Lol, seriously?

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Old 2009-08-26, 17:12   Link #478
Volcanic
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Lol, seriously?

Spoiler for lol:


Spoiler for EP5:
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Old 2009-08-26, 17:17   Link #479
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I'd feel so sorry for Hanyuu if she had to be stuck with Erika, from what I've read she's not a very pleasant girl. ^^;
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Old 2009-08-26, 17:25   Link #480
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