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Old 2009-08-26, 20:36   Link #21
synaesthetic
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
One's own hypocrisy huh.
Uh-huh. I'm not saying anything directly bad about him, only stating my own opinions clearly and concisely. I am not pounding out twenty-page rants detailing every little thing he did and why it was bad (if it was bad).

I know quite a few folks who literally celebrated and threw parties after Reagan died. I'm okay if you didn't agree with the man's politics but seriously, celebrating his death? That's just fucking juvenile.
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Old 2009-08-26, 20:46   Link #22
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RIP Kennedys.
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Old 2009-08-26, 20:46   Link #23
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Now, Reagan's legacy is still being defined as we speak. But, his death does highlight something we cannot ignore: the disease he was suffering from. It can happen to anyone of us.
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Old 2009-08-26, 20:54   Link #24
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Now, Reagan's legacy is still being defined as we speak. But, his death does highlight something we cannot ignore: the disease he was suffering from. It can happen to anyone of us.
Definitely. Alzheimer's is some scary stuff. I'd rather be paralyzed than go through that...
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Old 2009-08-26, 20:59   Link #25
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Still all you had to say was I don't agree with him, and not been disrespectful to someone who is already dead. Plus I wasn't talking about reagan, just that your own hipocrisy that lies with in your comment about respect when clearly you don't exhibit any respect for the dead, let alone an American hero.
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Old 2009-08-26, 21:09   Link #26
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Ted was obviously compensating for something. But, in his Senate career, I would argue that he did much more than JFK's short stint as President, and RFK's time as A-G.
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Old 2009-08-26, 21:38   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Still all you had to say was I don't agree with him, and not been disrespectful to someone who is already dead. Plus I wasn't talking about reagan, just that your own hipocrisy that lies with in your comment about respect when clearly you don't exhibit any respect for the dead, let alone an American hero.
I can respect someone and still say I think they were a jackass. Actually, I have friends who are assholes and they know I think they are. It doesn't mean I don't respect them.

How many soldiers had asshole drill instructors, and still respect them?
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Old 2009-08-26, 21:42   Link #28
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yea call him a tool is a sign of respect, right. Call him a tool the day of his death sounds soooooo respectful. Seriously your a hypocrite face it, stop trying to justify your obvious hypocrisy by saying you aren't. Learn some tact.
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Old 2009-08-27, 01:21   Link #29
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Come on let's make it great day in the U.S., His life and legacy will continue on forward and forever more. GOD BLESS The Kennedy's
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Old 2009-08-27, 02:19   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Do you even know what the writer is talking about?
I just don't like "political dynasties". No offense, I think the Kennedy's are great and honorable people---their ways (strategy) are pretty superior.
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Old 2009-08-27, 02:27   Link #31
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the youngest Kennedy brother who was left to head the family's political dynasty
Guess its up to good old Arnold Schwarzenegger to take up the the title now.
(He's married to a Kennedy)
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Old 2009-08-27, 02:30   Link #32
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I just don't like "political dynasties". No offense, I think the Kennedy's are great and honorable people---their ways (strategy) are pretty superior.
They understand the dynamic between the ultrarich (aristocrat) and the middleclass+poor (all peasants or serfs). If the former doesn't make sure the latter are doing reasonably well... fires, guns, pitchforks, and guillotines are inevitable. I believe Senator Kennedy wanted to the do the right thing for as many people as he could... but he also understood the underlying self-interest in that. Good altruistic pragmatism.

Each is on their own when the warlords and thugs strike? ... versus lets work as a team on this and support each other.
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Old 2009-08-27, 02:41   Link #33
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They understand the dynamic between the ultrarich (aristocrat) and the middleclass+poor (all peasants or serfs). If the former doesn't make sure the latter are doing reasonably well... fires, guns, pitchforks, and guillotines are inevitable.
You don't understand the gap of power between the two. If the "peasants" and "serfs" have "guns" and "pitchforks", the "aristocrats" have what you would classify, in terms of power, as "nuclear". Freedom is difficult to obtain, by rebellion(although still possible) , once "dynasties" and ultimate individual sovereigns are properly established.

Quote:
I believe Senator Kennedy wanted to the do the right thing for as many people as he could... but he also understood the underlying self-interest in that. Good altruistic pragmatism.
With that I can agree. For a person of power variety, he willingly used it effectively and charitably----unlike several other examples.
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Old 2009-08-27, 04:13   Link #34
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You don't understand the gap of power between the two. If the "peasants" and "serfs" have "guns" and "pitchforks", the "aristocrats" have what you would classify, in terms of power, as "nuclear". Freedom is difficult to obtain, by rebellion(although still possible) , once "dynasties" and ultimate individual sovereigns are properly established.
Um, you look kind of awkward telling me I don't understand the power situation between the ultra-rich and the rest of society. You don't seem to understand the situation nor what I know about it and many other things -- there is no "nuclear" on the aristocrat side (been through the Cold War as a systems analyst, played that game). What they fear is the small group or individual with nothing left to lose and a rifle, road-side bomb, or other assymetric violence. This isn't something I just came up with. Read the writings of William F Buckley or Noam Chomsky, especially on the aspects of the power dynamics between the haves and have-less. Keep the masses relatively happy and they'll leave you alone.

The feudal system society is also useful study -- in some ways it was superior to the broken relationship between the robber baron corporatists and workers today. The aristocracy had the obligation to make sure it didn't get too rough on the peasants. Today, many ultrarich think they can just "skip town" after they loot the granaries and treasuries and let the infrastructure fall apart. Others, like the modern day members of the Kennedys and the Rockefellers (and the Gates family) have a clue that they owe something to the society that let them thrive.
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Old 2009-08-27, 04:40   Link #35
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May God rest his soul.

RIP Ted Kennedy
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Old 2009-08-27, 04:44   Link #36
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Um, you look kind of awkward telling me I don't understand the power situation between the ultra-rich and the rest of society. You don't seem to understand the situation nor what I know about it and many other things -- there is no "nuclear" on the aristocrat side (been through the Cold War as a systems analyst, played that game). What they fear is the small group or individual with nothing left to lose and a rifle, road-side bomb, or other assymetric violence. This isn't something I just came up with. Read the writings of William F Buckley or Noam Chomsky, especially on the aspects of the power dynamics between the haves and have-less. Keep the masses relatively happy and they'll leave you alone.
I can tell the "terrorist-like" danger potential of the "peasants" but if you compare it to the totalitarian power of the one in command, it only counts as meager. And too add to that, I didn't really see, based on my readings, how "happy" people were during Stalin's reign. Political power can be used in many manipulating and rebellion-suppressing ways.

Quote:
Others, like the modern day members of the Kennedys and the Rockefellers (and the Gates family) have a clue that they owe something to the society that let them thrive.
Well I'm pretty sure they learned that from their tycoon contemporaries(e.g. Ford). Though I can't quite agree that they've helped "enough"---The more the better.
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Old 2009-08-27, 04:46   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
They understand the dynamic between the ultrarich (aristocrat) and the middleclass+poor (all peasants or serfs). If the former doesn't make sure the latter are doing reasonably well... fires, guns, pitchforks, and guillotines are inevitable. I believe Senator Kennedy wanted to the do the right thing for as many people as he could... but he also understood the underlying self-interest in that. Good altruistic pragmatism.

Each is on their own when the warlords and thugs strike? ... versus lets work as a team on this and support each other.
Somebody likes their two treatises on government.

Don't worry, I'm with you on the right of revolution within reason as well. Hopefully it never has to come to that in the first world though. The worst we get are the hysterical town hall meetings with lunatics parroting what Glen Beck told them about "death panels". Funny that whole "death panel" thing, because that's kind of what I think of whenever I hear of a poor worker being denied their health care insurance because of a "pre-exisiting condition", thus dooming them to death if it's a terminal condition they are suffering from.

Let me just speak for the Canadian health care system a little and what Ted Kennedy was fighting for before his passing. From personal experience right this month my dad has been undergoing pre-op treatments and meetings quite regularly. You see he had a gallbladder attack a while back and so we had to take him to a hospital. The wait was less than 15 minutes before he got to see a doctor and they treated him quickly and he was already feeling a better in a little over an hour or two, but instead of sending him home they did some more tests for a few hours to make sure everything had really settled down and then set him up with a pre-op meeting to see if he needed surgery. The nurses and doctor were all very pleasant by the way and looked after him with the same respect a commission doctor in the U.S would if not more so (speaking from memory again I remember the doctors who treated my Grandmothers heartattack down there seemed purely business and not very comforting) since hospitals have no obligation to send a patient home in order to get the next one in and make more money. I don't recall any "death panels" either, all I recall is my dad being treated for what was wrong with him and being referred for further treatment.

So indeed as I've already mentioned he did need the surgery and the pre-op doctor told my mother who told me that if my dad was an American citizen then we would have had to re-mortgage our house just to pay for the operation and it almost certainly wouldn't have been covered under any affordable insurance plan since of course it could be easily identified as a "pre-existing condition". I just really don't get that whole idea of denying people the right to life and affordable public health care.

Somewhere along the line the hippocratic oath got lost in that labrynthine health insurance system down south and it honestly kind of scares the hell out of me from ever wanting to visit there too often. What if I get sick, what if something happens to me and I have to go to the hospital for serious treatment? How could I afford it? I really hope Obama's health care reform bill gets passed.
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Old 2009-08-27, 04:59   Link #38
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Universal health care was one of Kennedy's unrealised dreams. I seriously wonder if Obama would pull it off.
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Old 2009-08-27, 05:02   Link #39
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Somebody likes their two treatises on government.

Don't worry, I'm with you on the right of revolution within reason as well. Hopefully it never has to come to that in the first world though. The worst we get are the hysterical town hall meetings with lunatics parroting what Glen Beck told them about "death panels". Funny that whole "death panel" thing, because that's kind of what I think of whenever I hear of a poor worker being denied their health care insurance because of a "pre-exisiting condition", thus dooming them to death if it's a terminal condition they are suffering from.

Let me just speak for the Canadian health care system a little and what Ted Kennedy was fighting for before his passing. From personal experience right this month my dad has been undergoing pre-op treatments and meetings quite regularly. You see he had a gallbladder attack a while back and so we had to take him to a hospital. The wait was less than 15 minutes before he got to see a doctor and they treated him quickly and he was already feeling a better in a little over an hour or two, but instead of sending him home they did some more tests for a few hours to make sure everything had really settled down and then set him up with a pre-op meeting to see if he needed surgery. The nurses and doctor were all very pleasant by the way and looked after him with the same respect a commission doctor in the U.S would if not more so (speaking from memory again I remember the doctors who treated my Grandmothers heartattack down there seemed purely business and not very comforting) since hospitals have no obligation to send a patient home in order to get the next one in and make more money. I don't recall any "death panels" either, all I recall is my dad being treated for what was wrong with him and being referred for further treatment.

So indeed as I've already mentioned he did need the surgery and the pre-op doctor told my mother who told me that if my dad was an American citizen then we would have had to re-mortgage our house just to pay for the operation and it almost certainly wouldn't have been covered under any affordable insurance plan since of course it could be easily identified as a "pre-existing condition". I just really don't get that whole idea of denying people the right to life and affordable public health care.

Somewhere along the line the hippocratic oath got lost in that labrynthine health insurance system down south and it honestly kind of scares the hell out of me from ever wanting to visit there too often. What if I get sick, what if something happens to me and I have to go to the hospital for serious treatment? How could I afford it? I really hope Obama's health care reform bill gets passed.
Unfortunately, what will probably end up passing will be a thin ghost of what the other industrial nations we compete with economically do. Our businesses simply won't be able to compete globally unless it changes (or those that can will continue to simply relocate out of the country). Frankly, if my wife could easily transfer her pharmacy license to Canada, we'd have probably moved there 5 or 6 years ago. You do not want to be against healthcare reform in her presence or any of her professional colleagues -- she gets to daily watch people bankrupted, get coverage dropped, valid claims denied, decide to stop taking treatment to keep their family from being economically ravaged... you name it. She came home in a blue funk on hearing of Kennedy passing.
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Old 2009-08-27, 05:07   Link #40
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The fight he couldn't see to the end. Seriously, if Obama wants to use his memory to fuel the drive, he had better do it fast.
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