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Old 2009-08-26, 19:45   Link #21
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze View Post
I wonder if there'll ever be the chance of a Hurrican named after her, it'd be the most fitting name for a hurrican ever.
LOL! Neat thought, OkamiNoKaze!
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Old 2009-08-26, 20:52   Link #22
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I've always wondered why we didn't have these threads before, I guess people just forgot to ask because it only became common years after the original season ended.

As for Haruhi herself, she's a very interesting character, especially in the novels. We probably know the least about her way of thinking out of all the characters as the others are able to more openly talk with Kyon given the fact that he's in the the big secret whereas she always has her guard up. It was one of the things that really drew me in originally when I started reading them back in 2006. It's obvious what her "Main" motivation is though for why she behaves the way she does though.
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Old 2009-08-26, 22:04   Link #23
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Originally Posted by GMT View Post
Now, if you will excuse me, I've got to get rid of the rest of this special Kool-Aid before next week's services.
YOU FIEND!!
So why did Haruhi "choose" Kyon anyway?
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Old 2009-08-26, 22:15   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Vampire View Post
YOU FIEND!!
So why did Haruhi "choose" Kyon anyway?
The following reasons, I think...

1) He's easy to boss around. Really, he is. While Kyon protests more than any other SOS Brigade member, he still puts up with a lot more from Haruhi than I think most guys his age (Japanese or otherwise) would. Haruhi needs submissive subordinates to do her bidding, and Kyon fills the role nicely.

Spoiler for General Spoilers:


4) Presumably, Haruhi finds him at least somewhat physically attractive.
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Old 2009-08-26, 22:26   Link #25
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Originally Posted by Vampire View Post
YOU FIEND!!
So why did Haruhi "choose" Kyon anyway?
Well, initially one might be lead to believe that Haruhi 'chose' Kyon for the very simple fact that Kyon's the first guy who weathered her "go to hell!" aura long enough to routinely strike up a conversation with her and befriend her.

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-08-27, 00:50   Link #26
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Originally Posted by GMT View Post
Well, initially one might be lead to believe that Haruhi 'chose' Kyon for the very simple fact that Kyon's the first guy who weathered her "go to hell!" aura long enough to routinely strike up a conversation with her and befriend her.

Spoiler:
Yeah I think you pretty much got it, that and he gave her the idea to start the club.

Something I noticed when I was looking at the illustations in the first novel, in one of them she has a lol-fang, (in her case it's a cos-rape-fang) too bad this didn't make the leap to the anime. But I guess two characters with a fang would be too much.
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Old 2009-08-27, 00:53   Link #27
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While I believe the character of Haruhi to be original and very interesting, I find that she's too contradictory for me to really like.

What really stuck out to me when I first watched the show, was her explanation of why she acts the way she acts. One of the big incidences that happened. When it comes down to it, the TV Trope defined it as "She Just Wants To Be Special."

What I don't get about that, is how she was perfectly special in the first place before any of the god-like revelation took place. She was practically the most talented person in the school, the only person close being the humanoid interface Ryoko Asakura. Athletic, Smart, Attractive, and Known well throughout the student body by having one of the most active clubs. And as we found out by the end of her first year, she's musically talented as well.

How does she not notice these things? Is she supposed to be that interested in the paranormal that she doesn't notice her own skills? The real big question to me is exactly how powerful or influential her wish-fulfillment is.

(Is already soaked in gasoline, so feel free to debate about this with me)
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Old 2009-08-27, 00:59   Link #28
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I'm not entirely convinced yet, but I think her powers are what makes her good at so many things she tries at.
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Old 2009-08-27, 01:05   Link #29
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It's Haruhi's belief that anyone is capable of what she does, they just don't try hard enough. Her behavior in Boredom should be more than enough proof of that. What she wants is to truly be special. As in, she wants her life to be that of a sci-fi/fantasy world. However, she knows that "can't" happen.

I know I'm not really the best person to explain this sort of thing, but that's simply how it is. She has it in her head that she's normal, and wants something more.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-27, 03:44   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Vampire View Post
YOU FIEND!!
So why did Haruhi "choose" Kyon anyway?
He actively challenges her and doesn't run away from her craziness. Yeah, he usually goes down in flames when he does so... but it doesn't stop him from doing it time and time again.

Also, he's a lot like Haruhi... more than he'd care to admit and she probably senses this as well.
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Old 2009-08-27, 17:48   Link #31
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Old 2009-08-27, 18:13   Link #32
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She reconised him as someone similar to her, with the same believe and interests (aliens, espers, time travel...).

It was only he who could think as crazy as her and ask if he hair style change was something to do with aliens.

Is just Kyon don't want(ed) to believe that things anymore (cause it is imature).
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Old 2009-08-28, 21:38   Link #33
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A lot of people accuse Haruhi of being a sociopath, and yes her lack of respect for norms, people, and just basically everything is quite disgusting at times. Though we do have to realize she is the ultimate spoiled child-- the universe spoils her, quite literally.

Because it bends to her will, she has never had to compromise with anyone. She wants to have fun, and she sincerely believes other people are enjoying it too despite their collective groans and whining. But since nobody would dare oppose her, she thinks it's all ok and that everyone is playing their roles. It eventually gets boring, because everything seems too easy.

Enter Kyon. He's the only one that doesn't act like a doormat to her, and actually provides oppoistion. She seems to genuinely want attention from him because of this. Plus you have to realize how the other 3 view her as...

The aliens view her as a key to evolution.
The espers view her as a god who would destroy the world out of boredom.
The Time Travelers see her as a roadblock.

Basically, nobody really sees her for herself. If she didn't have special abilities, then none of these factions would have given a damn about her. So it seems only natural she would be interested in the one that doesn't have an agenda.

And so, Haruhi is apretty damned interesting character. If only you know who you were.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2009-08-28 at 21:48. Reason: reduced excessive use of "basically"
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Old 2009-08-28, 21:59   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
A lot of people accuse Haruhi of being a sociopath, and yes her lack of respect for norms, people, and just basically everything is quite disgusting at times. Though we do have to realize she is the ultimate spoiled child-- the universe spoils her, quite literally.
I strongly suspect that her parents spoiled her too.

However, I agree with much of what you said - the fact that she can bend reality to make it very difficult for her to lose in any competition that she cares about doesn't help matters.

I mentioned this over on the Koizumi thread, but I think it bears repeating here since it applies to Haruhi as well... Koizumi is really hurting her emotional maturing, I think, by always going out of his way to ensure that she never loses (as he did through his talks with Kyon during the baseball game and in Sagittarius III).

Honestly, I think that Haruhi would probably, over the long term, benefit from losing at a competition that she genuinely cared about.

Losing, every now and then, can build character. It can make a person more hardy, and more accepting of the idea that they can't always have their way.


Quote:
She wants to have fun, and she sincerely believes other people are enjoying it too despite their collective groans and whining.
Here is where I feel compelled to disagree with you. Watching Sighs come to life in an animated way, I find it impossible to see how Haruhi could actually think that Mikuru is enjoying this. It's patently obvious that Mikuru is suffering through it all.

Haruhi just doesn't care. It's not that she's deluding herself into thinking that everybody is enjoying it; it's that she's never really taken the time to put her feet in another person's shoes, so she doesn't even stop to consider what this all feels like for Mikuru.

It's not maliciousness... but it's not self-delusion either. It's pure apathy/obliviousness.


Quote:
Enter Kyon. He's the only one that doesn't act like a doormat to her, and actually provides opposition. She seems to genuinely want attention from him because of this. Plus you have to realize how the other 3 view her as...

The aliens view her as a key to evolution.
The espers view her as a god who would destroy the world out of boredom.
The Time Travelers see her as a roadblock.

Basically, nobody really sees her for herself. If she didn't have special abilities, then none of these factions would have given a damn about her. So it seems only natural she would be interested in the one that doesn't have an agenda.
Agreed.

Part of the problem isn't Haruhi's at all - it's the people around her, with a slight exception in Kyon's case.

While it's true that Haruhi makes no effort to empathize with others, it's also true that nobody else tries to empathize with her, either; not openly towards her anyway. This is, perhaps, part of what sets Kyon apart from the rest of Haruhi's peers, and in Haruhi's own eyes as well; he actually does try to empathize with her, at least every once in a while.

I think that if somebody was to like Haruhi for who she is, and if somebody was to sincerely share her interests with her, then you may see such empathy become reciprocal, and cause Haruhi to grow as a person.

Basically, nobody in the SOS Brigade truly shares her interests. Why would they? If you're an esper yourself, why would espers intrigue you?

Kyon, though he's loath to admit it, at least shares her interests to a degree - he doesn't hold them as passionately as Haruhi does, but he'd genuinely like to see something very out-of-the-ordinary himself. I think that Haruhi picks up on that in him, and maybe that's part of the reason why Haruhi chose him to be her friend and in her SOS Brigade group. I suspect that, at some intuitive level, Haruhi can tell that - of the people she knows - only Kyon and she herself is really into the idea of seeing the out-of-the-ordinary.
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Old 2009-08-28, 22:28   Link #35
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Again Triple brings up my thoughts about Haruhi's parents, I don't know why but I get the feeling their like Mandy's Parents from Grim adventures of Billy and Mandy.

Also I've always wondered if Haruhi's powers were always there but dorment until that event "three years ago" or is that when she recieved them? Was there any revelation on this?

Also anyone want to speculate on post Graduation/novel Haruhi? I see her taking the SOS with her and turning it into a Private Investigation firm. That or she'd join Japan's version of the FBI's X-File unit.
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Old 2009-08-28, 22:29   Link #36
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I mentioned this over on the Koizumi thread, but I think it bears repeating here since it applies to Haruhi as well... Koizumi is really hurting her emotional maturing, I think, by always going out of his way to ensure that she never loses (as he did through his talks with Kyon during the baseball game and in Sagittarius III).

Honestly, I think that Haruhi would probably, over the long term, benefit from losing at a competition that she genuinely cared about.

Losing, every now and then, can build character. It can make a person more hardy, and more accepting of the idea that they can't always have their way.
Koizumi reminds of a type of morality I hate. Basically it is like people follow laws solely out of fear of being punished. You usually have people like that explaining that murder is wrong because it's illegal. Everything he does is because he is afraid Haruhi will destroy the world. It is all as fake as his smile. But of course, I can't blame him so much, because I don't think he wants to be here and the destruction of the universe is a priority.

It's true of all 3 factions to some degree. They all want to play it safe and throw responsibility at someone else , but it can't last like that.

Quote:
Here is where I feel compelled to disagree with you. Watching Sighs come to life in an animated way, I find it impossible to see how Haruhi could actually think that Mikuru is enjoying this. It's patently obvious that Mikuru is suffering through it all.

Haruhi just doesn't care. It's not that she's deluding herself into thinking that everybody is enjoying it; it's that she's never really taken the time to put her feet in another person's shoes, so she doesn't even stop to consider what this all feels like for Mikuru.

It's not maliciousness... but it's not self-delusion either. It's pure apathy/obliviousness.
Hmm, haven't watched the latest episode yet, so that may change my opinion. I really do believe that one would become extremely delusional with a very warped sense of reality in her position. Not that it justifies anything she's done though.

But yea, she hasn't considered how others feel at all. She simply doesn't comprehend the need for morality. Apathy and obliviousness might just be the better words for her case.
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Old 2009-08-28, 22:33   Link #37
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Honestly, I think that Haruhi would probably, over the long term, benefit from losing at a competition that she genuinely cared about.

Losing, every now and then, can build character. It can make a person more hardy, and more accepting of the idea that they can't always have their way.
I disagree. I think that the more success Haruhi experiences, the more ambitious she'll become and more willing to take risks. A long series of successes means that she'll have more confidence in her ability to act and overcome obstacles. I think that if opportunities work her way (if the economy is on an upswing, if Haruhi enters into some revolutionary new field of industry that suits her abilities), then Haruhi would already have the kind of ambitious and hard-working personality that would push her advantage to the fullest.

On the other hand, if Japan's economy were stagnating and new opportunities to cause huge change in industry were closed to her, then she would end up becoming frustrated with her inability to achieve. If she didn't have her reality-warping powers (speaking of Haruhi as a real person, rather than imaginary), then she'd probably become more "accepting of the idea that [she] can't always have [her] way". She'd come out an ordinary person with little motivation to take big risks since her past failures in her frustrating environment stifled her ambition.

For this reason, I believe that Haruhi would gravitate towards areas that have opportunities for her to exercise her ruthless ambition and abilities. In the event that she did face inevitable failure of an important venture for her career, then she'd realize that she's stuck in small-town Nishinomiya where politicians and businessmen alike are too afraid to take risks that no other businesses/politicians have explored.

On the topic of business, I've met with several Japanese company executives and a few firms that coordinate US-Japan business relations. The potential for entrepreneurship in Japan is still lagging in comparison to outside countries such as the US. Positions of power in big Japanese companies are still manned by loyal employees who have reached a certain age in the company. To a large degree, promotions work like clockwork. Maverick-style management, the kind that I suspect Haruhi would excel at, is a rare find. If Haruhi were to find a niche in a system to refine her developing skill as a lawyer, detective, physicist, writer, or whatever, that niche would probably involve her leaving Japan.

In other words, Haruhi is unable to accept failure. She'd change her environment to suit her greed for glory. Any compromise on her part would dull what I believe most of us in this forum admire in her.
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Old 2009-08-28, 22:46   Link #38
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Quote:
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Koizumi reminds of a type of morality I hate. Basically it is like people follow laws solely out of fear of being punished. You usually have people like that explaining that murder is wrong because it's illegal. Everything he does is because he is afraid Haruhi will destroy the world. It is all as fake as his smile.
Yeah, I know what you mean.

My own perspective is that the 3 factions are all going with a bandaid solution approach to Haruhi - just taking things one instance at a time. They're not trying to build any sort of perceivable long-term strategy for her.

Now, in Mikuru's case, this could be because everything is predestined anyway - her job is to simply keep it that way, I suppose.

In Nagato's case, she's often simply an observer/information gatherer, and to her credit, she admits as much.

But Koizumi... Koizumi has a certain degree of freedom that both of the above lack. He isn't bound by the future (Mikuru), and nor is he bound to simply observe (Yuki). It would be better, I think, if he focused less on a case-by-case basis, and more on the big picture of Haruhi's maturing as a person.


Quote:
But of course, I can't blame him so much, because I don't think he wants to be here and the destruction of the universe is a priority.
True. As I said over on the Koizumi thread, though, I really don't think that losing a baseball game would, in and of itself, cause Haruhi to destroy the universe.

Or, if you sincerely believe that it does, that's the key problem in and of itself - you need to emotionally move Haruhi to the point where she's stabler than that.


Quote:
It's true of all 3 factions to some degree. They all want to play it safe and throw responsibility at someone else , but it can't last like that.
Exactly.


Quote:
Hmm, haven't watched the latest episode yet, so that may change my opinion.
Mikuru's frequent showings of suffering are kind of hard to ignore...

Quote:
I really do believe that one would become extremely delusional with a very warped sense of reality in her position. Not that it justifies anything she's done though.

But yea, she hasn't considered how others feel at all. She simply doesn't comprehend the need for morality. Apathy and obliviousness might just be the better words for her case.
I think that Haruhi has some sense of morality - I think, for example, that she wouldn't actually try to kill somebody unless put under the sort of circumstances that would cause your average person to kill (i.e. extreme self-defense).

But, yeah, her sense of morality is very much limited by her general lack of empathy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze View Post

Also I've always wondered if Haruhi's powers were always there but dorment until that event "three years ago" or is that when she recieved them? Was there any revelation on this?
This has been left entirely to fan speculation, really. At least up to this point in the novels/anime. Your theory is as good as Koizumi's.


Quote:
Also anyone want to speculate on post Graduation/novel Haruhi? I see her taking the SOS with her and turning it into a Private Investigation firm. That or she'd join Japan's version of the FBI's X-File unit.
Haruhi/Kyon as a gender-swapped Mulder and Scully... that would be kind of funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baltakatei View Post
I disagree. I think that the more success Haruhi experiences, the more ambitious she'll become and more willing to take risks.
Success in a general sense, sure. But we're not talking about bold financial ventures; we're talking about simple games, like baseball and computer games.

A person who never loses at anything is a person who can't relate to anybody who does... and hence, we see one of the causes behind Haruhi's inability to have empathy for others.

Also, losing often gives a person the added incentive needed to better themselves and push themselves to be stronger. I mean - this is the whole idea behind the famous Rocky movies. And heck, you see a lot of it in shonen anime too - you can't tell me that Ichigo's embarrassing defeat at Byakuya's hands in Season 1 didn't help motivate him to become the toughest fighter that he could be.


A person who wins all the time is a person who finds everything easy, and hence motivation to push themselves or challenge themselves will naturally diminish over time.

I recall the New England Patriots going into the SuperBowl the year when they went undefeated up until that point. Then... when they finally faced some real adversity in the SuperBowl, the biggest game of them all, they lost. They lost, perhaps, because they never learned how to deal with a losing situation all season long; you learn from your losses just as much (if not more) than you learn from your victories. Any pro sports coach will tell you that, I think.

Haruhi would really benefit from losing (once) at something - it could be a good learning experience for her, a good motivator for her, and a good catalyst for her learning to empathize with others more.
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Old 2009-08-28, 23:00   Link #39
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Koizumi has a certain degree of freedom that both of the above lack. He isn't bound by the future (Mikuru), and nor is he bound to simply observe (Yuki). It would be better, I think, if he focused less on a case-by-case basis, and more on the big picture of Haruhi's maturing as a person.
Koizumi is bound by the fact that any problem he doesn't prevent from occurring has to be dealt with twice: once directly and once in damage control in the closed spaces that were created.

Quote:
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True. As I said over on the Koizumi thread, though, I really don't think that losing a baseball game would, in and of itself, cause Haruhi to destroy the universe.
Except all three groups seem to believe that, and there's considerable evidence to back up the thought. Keep in mind that all three were worried about what was happening when Haruhi realized things weren't going her way. If the Data-whatever wasn't worried about what she was doing, Nagato wouldn't have been able to go along with Koizumi's suggestion of cheating their way to victory.

While we don't get as much from the time travelers, the fact that Mikuru was notified at the same time as the other two proves that she was also warned of what Haruhi was doing.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-28, 23:07   Link #40
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Except all three groups seem to believe that, and there's considerable evidence to back up the thought.
Kogetsu... who the hell would even want to reboot the entire universe over losing an amateur baseball game?!

The idea is patently absurd.

Sure, Haruhi would be depressed over losing - probably cause a couple of closed spaces to appear (Koizumi's real concern, I suspect), but destroy the entire universe over it?

Really, now?

Even the most immature of little kids aren't like that.
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