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View Poll Results: Suzumiya Haruhi (2009) - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 44 31.65%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 45 32.37%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 27 19.42%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 8.63%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 5.76%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.72%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.44%
Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-08-27, 12:39   Link #61
Heatth
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I did, last chapter. Haven't checkd this one though.
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:39   Link #62
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hmm? i didn't get to see the ED, the broadcast had cut off
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:42   Link #63
Daniel Lind
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Credits modification is nothing new.
I remember in one of Melancholies, Haruhi and Kyon names were THIS BIG.
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Old 2009-08-27, 12:54   Link #64
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And in Melancholy V, Haruhi had the first slide of the credit roll all to herself.

@Heatth: Game was referring to Munto TV I believe. New content on that series used the so called "K-On art style". KyoAni rose to popularity with Air TV and FMP Fumoffu + TSR (leap in quality from Gonzo -> KyoAni was exponential). Coming into Haruhi 06, KyoAni was known for their "kami sakuga" works. Quoting from the General Anime forum:
Spoiler for length; saving space:

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's why it's called K-Onified, and not "4Koma-ified".
Because all 4komas have K-On! 4koma's art stlye?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Look, accept the fact that a lot of people don't like the art changes, and everybody knows exactly what is meant by "K-Onified". Given that the art style keeps altering from one episode to the next to the next, people are naturally going to bring up the art style.
Or, you could accept the fact that the art shift is here to stay and there's nothing you can do about it. So stubborn. By comparison, Hayate no Gotoku fan complaints only lasted until ~episode 2 (OVA, 1, 2).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In general, I think that Anime Suki overestimates the value of the question of "What animation studio produced it?" in the minds of the fans. When trying to determine what anime I want to check out, I don't even think about "What animation studio produced it?", honestly. That's not even a factor in determining what anime I watch.
Are you on the other side of the internet? Design, style, reputation, and genre and general expertise. Unless you watch all shows on the seasonal charts, these are what you take note on animation companies in order to determine which shows to follow, which to marathon, gloss over, pass, etc., helping you pick shows which you have no background about.
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Old 2009-08-27, 13:05   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
And in Melancholy V, Haruhi had the first slide of the credit roll all to herself.

@Heatth: Game was referring to Munto TV I believe. New content on that series used the so called "K-On art style". KyoAni rose to popularity with Air TV and FMP Fumoffu + TSR (leap in quality from Gonzo -> KyoAni was exponential). Coming into Haruhi 06, KyoAni was known for their "kami sakuga" works. Quoting from the General Anime forum:
Eh, I know that. Munto was created before Kyoani becomes popular right?

Also really don't matter how the new style is called. People call it K-ONstyle because it wa the first popular anime to use it. "No one" knows Munto, so call it Munto style is kinda pointless.

(also, "no one" know the 4koma K-ON as no "one know" the 4koma Lucky*Star)

By 'no one' I mean 'most people' and, for this forum intent 'most Haruhi's fans'.
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Old 2009-08-27, 13:19   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post

Or, you could accept the fact that the art shift is here to stay and there's nothing you can do about it.
Or, you could accept the fact that fans can like a show overall, and still make constructive criticism of elements of it.

I get the feeling that some Haruhi fans think that you have to be gung-ho 100% supportive of everything the anime/franchise does in order to be a fan of it. Well, no, you don't. Being a fan of something doesn't mean giving a thumbs up to everything about it.

Also, there is no consistent art shift, Ice Block. That's what's causing the art style discussions to continue. If Haruhi 2009 was K-Onified all the time, I probably would have dropped the subject by now... if not the anime itself, to be brutally frank. However, the art style for the new episodes this year is all over the board.

At times, it's very close to Haruhi 2006 art style (last episode was very close to 2006 art style). Other times, it's very close to K-On's art style. Such a wide range of art styles from episode to episode is practically begging for fan feedback - for all we know, KyoAni may be reading message boards to see which art styles generate the most positive feedback and which art styles generate the most negative feedback. So, I'm naturally going to vocally support the art styles that I like (such as episode 8 and 11) and vocally critique those that I don't (such as episode 1 and 10).

I see enough touches - and even long sequences - of Haruhi 2006 art style to keep my hope alive that we may get that art style back yet. Or, at least, something close enough to it that I'm happy with it anyway (such as last episode).


Quote:
So stubborn.
It's not about being stubborn. It's simply about recognizing that the art style fluctuates from episode to episode, and hence I speak better of the art styles that I like the most.


Quote:
Are you on the other side of the internet? Design, style, reputation, and genre and general expertise.
You don't need to even know what animation studio is doing the anime in order to judge the design, style, and genre of that anime. A simple google image search will tell you design - a simply YouTube video will tell you style - and a simple Wiki look up will tell you genre.


Quote:
Unless you watch all shows on the seasonal charts, these are what you take note on animation companies in order to determine which shows to follow, which to marathon, gloss over, pass, etc., helping you pick shows which you have no background about.
How I determine what animes shows to try is...

1) How much the concept and premise behind the anime intrigues me.

2) How much I like the character designs.

3) What my fellow anime-watching friends have to tell me about the anime in question.

4) The general impression I get from the anime through reading fans talking about it (on message boards like this one), and/or from reading up on the anime on Wiki.


I've seen great animes by JC Staff, I've seen great animes by Gainax, I've seen great animes by Kyoto Animation, I've seen great animes by Shaft, I've seen great animes by countless different animation studios.

To think that any animation studio holds a monopoly on quality anime is false thinking, imo. It's also false thinking, I think, to think that any particular animation studio can do no wrong.
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Old 2009-08-27, 13:32   Link #67
Daniel Lind
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Must we still bring artstyle issue up?
The corpse has been beaten to a second death already and that was back during Endless Eight.
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:35   Link #68
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OH GOD
I really, really have to see this episode.
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Old 2009-08-27, 14:49   Link #69
Ice Block
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
Eh, I know that. Munto was created before Kyoani becomes popular right?

Also really don't matter how the new style is called. People call it K-ONstyle because it wa the first popular anime to use it. "No one" knows Munto, so call it Munto style is kinda pointless.

(also, "no one" know the 4koma K-ON as no "one know" the 4koma Lucky*Star)

By 'no one' I mean 'most people' and, for this forum intent 'most Haruhi's fans'.
Munto OVA 1, yep. Released a few months before Fumoffu. And yeah, incorrect labeling doesn't really matter (in the long run and to everyone else). I just feel that this labeling seems somehow... incorrect, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Or, you could accept the fact that fans can like a show overall, and still make constructive criticism of elements of it
...and not act like they're stuck in a time loop. I guess people are tsundere for E8 after all. This is all fine, however I am not pleased with the constant degradation of certain shows just because they "delayed" Haruhi and somehow affected its holiness. This is inevitable though, as I was expecting Haruhi to push everything else down when it kicks into high gear, and if it falters then the preceding shows would take the butt of the whine stick.

Just to be clear:
zzz K-On style again... = bad
what the fuck did they do to the character designs?! = good

And, sorry to crush your hopes, but we're not getting the old art style back. Animation quality, perhaps, and it is getting there. Art style? No. Or have you not differentiated these two?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Also, there is no consistent art shift, Ice Block. That's what's causing the art style discussions to continue. If Haruhi 2009 was K-Onified all the time, I probably would have dropped the subject by now... if not the anime itself, to be brutally frank. However, the art style for the new episodes this year is all over the board.
There were only two episodes that were "K-Onified", E8 3 and 4. And there is (was) a consistent art shift. Character portraits from different episodes may not be totally superimposable, but the general "style" (character design) is preserved throughout, except E8 3, and to a lesser extent E8 4. And, to be curious, how much of K-On! did you actually watch?

And whining =/= doing something about it. And I hope discussion regarding this matter ends here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I've seen great animes by JC Staff, I've seen great animes by Gainax, I've seen great animes by Kyoto Animation, I've seen great animes by Shaft, I've seen great animes by countless different animation studios.
Coincidentally, all the named studious here are currently popularly considered "Above Average". What I'm trying to say is that the animation company handling a show should be your first reference, provided you are familiar with the company's previous works. And this is mostly in terms of expectations. You don't pick up a show by Studio Deen and proceed to complain about animation quality. You don't pick up a Gonzo show and then complain about "bad and confusing" endings. Likewise, you don't pick up a KyoAni show and complain about lack of original content. You don't pick up a Sunrise mecha show and complain about stock "scene templates" during MS battles. You don't pick up a SHAFT show and complain about getting SHAFTed. (You don't expect to be pleased by the Toei adaptation of a KEY game.)

Most companies have their quirks and specialties, niches if you will (ex: Sunrise - Mecha). They stick to these for higher chances of win, since they have usually mastered the formula over time. But isn't it interesting when you see a studio tackle on something from outside it's niche? Of course it is, but you'd have to come to it with lower expectations (ex: KyoAni - Munto TV).
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Old 2009-08-27, 15:56   Link #70
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Talking

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Originally Posted by Jonbob0008 View Post
My guess is that the "scene" won't be until the episode after this one. Anyone agree?
EGAD~!

DON'T SAY THAT! (You'll jinx us ya' know?)

But anyway I rather enjoy the current arc and season. Sure the whole "Endless Eight" thing with basically the same episode 8 times and was annoying but what about all the talk about it and the anticipation that the Arc ends next week?, looking forward to see if the Endless Summer will finally cease?

Brilliant suspense I'd say.

Also you have to realize that Haruhi is at a second season now after so many years, so think of it this way, "It's been so long since a new season and now it is finally here, enjoy it while it lasts."

That is all! :P
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Old 2009-08-27, 16:02   Link #71
khryoleoz
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But it has been boring.
I kinda agree with this about this arc. Frankly I found the actually movie to be more enlightening as a foreshadowing of what things were to come in the show. The making of the film was a tedious read for me. Not that there weren't things I couldn't enjoy, but I definitely can't call volume 2 my favorite.

I much preferred 9 episodes of Endless Eight over the preparations for the culture festival wherein Kyon and Haruhi's relationship is strained to a very low point. Does what I wrote just now count as a spoiler?
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Old 2009-08-27, 16:06   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Munto OVA 1, yep. Released a few months before Fumoffu. And yeah, incorrect labeling doesn't really matter (in the long run and to everyone else). I just feel that this labeling seems somehow... incorrect, IMO.
Frequent legitimate comparisons have been drawn between how Haruhi looks in some of the new episodes (far from all, but some), and how Yui looks in K-On.

Haruhi's character design, this year, is frequently (not always, but frequently) K-Onified. So are Yuki and Mikuru's character designs, but I don't care that much about their character design changes, since its arguably an improvement anyway, and also since the basic distinctive look of the two characters has been retained. In Haruhi's case, though, her distinctive look has been compromised at times, imo.


Quote:

...and not act like they're stuck in a time loop.
Nobody is stuck in a time loop. The art style changes considerably from episode to episode, imo. I respect that you don't see it that way, but I do. That makes it a legitimate topic for discussion, imo.


Quote:
This is all fine, however I am not pleased with the constant degradation of certain shows just because they "delayed" Haruhi and somehow affected its holiness.
I'm not degrading any shows. I'll be the first to say that K-On's art style is perfectly fine for K-On itself. It suits the general mood and feeling of that show quite nicely.

It doesn't suit the general mood and feeling of Haurhi's show, imo.

Everything I say about the art style... or for that matter, pretty much everything I say about the anime - is just my opinion. If you don't agree, fine.


Quote:
This is inevitable though, as I was expecting Haruhi to push everything else down when it kicks into high gear, and if it falters then the preceding shows would take the butt of the whine stick.
It seems like any kind of criticism is automatically "butt hurt", or "nerd rage", or now "whine stick". It's as though if anything deviates the slightest bit from pure 100% praise, it's unacceptable.

Is this really what you want for episode discussion? Just an echo chamber of nothing but praise - even when its undeserved - with out the slightest serious critique whatsoever?

Heatth made a good point on one of the character discussion threads when he said that in order for discussions there to be good, you need to have at least somebody there who doesn't like the character. That keep debate exciting, and lively, imo.


Quote:

And, sorry to crush your hopes, but we're not getting the old art style back.
And you know this how?

The art style is constantly changing, imo. Episode 11 looked considerably different from episode 10 - and these are two of the three most recent episodes. Episode 11 did look very close to Haruhi 2006 in my view. So... why is it impossible for the old art style to come back?


Quote:

Animation quality, perhaps, and it is getting there. Art style? No. Or have you not differentiated these two?
Of course I know the difference.

Art style = character and setting design. How characters and settings are drawn, colored, inked, and lighted/shaded in a still picture.

Animation = The quality and effect of visual flow from one frame to the next. It's the art work in motion.


Quote:
There were only two episodes that were "K-Onified", E8 3 and 4.
I disagree. Episode 10 looked very K-Onified to me.


Quote:
And there is (was) a consistent art shift.
No, it hasn't been consistent at all, imo.


Quote:
Character portraits from different episodes may not be totally superimposable, but the general "style" (character design) is preserved throughout, except E8 3, and to a lesser extent E8 4. And, to be curious, how much of K-On! did you actually watch?
11 episodes as of this writing.


Quote:
And whining =/= doing something about it.
Not all criticism is whining.


Quote:
And I hope discussion regarding this matter ends here.
Well, if you choose not to respond to my post here, then I probably won't bring the art style up again, aside from a possible blog review of the episode in the near future.


Quote:

Coincidentally, all the named studious here are currently popularly considered "Above Average".
Really? I've heard quite a bit of criticism made towards Gainax, JC Staff, and Shaft.

KyoAni appears to be the only sacrosanct animation studio...


Quote:
What I'm trying to say is that the animation company handling a show should be your first reference,
Why? I have found that my entirely different approach to choosing animes to sample and watch has served me extremely well. Why should I stop using an approach that works for me?


Quote:
...provided you are familiar with the company's previous works. And this is mostly in terms of expectations. You don't pick up a show by Studio Deen and proceed to complain about animation quality. You don't pick up a Gonzo show and then complain about "bad and confusing" endings. Likewise, you don't pick up a KyoAni show and complain about lack of original content.
I disagree.

What you're suggesting is glossing over a flaw (in some cases, a big flaw - bad endings are a big flaw, in my opinion) in an anime just because of the typical flaws of the studio that produces it.

Sure, you can say, for example "Well, it has the typical Gainax ending, but other than that, it's a great anime!", but that doesn't mean you should just completely dismiss the poor ending as though it never happened. There's nothing forcing Gainax to create the sort of endings that they do - they could choose to make a different sort of ending if they wanted to.

Even famous movie directors can break off their personal beaten path and alter their style from time to time. No doubt constructive criticism for some of their typical flaws is what lead them to do it.


Quote:
You don't pick up a Sunrise mecha show and complain about stock "scene templates" during MS battles.
I agree with you here, but only because of budgeting considerations.


Quote:
But isn't it interesting when you see a studio tackle on something from outside it's niche?
Exactly. Well said.

And what causes that is people pointing out things like "Hey, Gainax, do you think you could do something other than deeply metaphysical and not-so-happy endings for a change?" or "Hey, KyoAni, do you think you could do something a little less moeblob for a change?".
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Old 2009-08-27, 16:31   Link #73
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What worked beatifully for K-On! just seems to work less well here in terms of art style. Haruhi's storyline has some pretty serious edges to it -- the first season style was closer to seinen works like Hataraki Man which gave it the serious edge power when it needed it. This style is fine for the comedy but falters a bit when serious things start to happen.

It doesn't *ruin* the series - but for a number of viewers it does reduce the power of the series a bit. I haven't yet watched the current episodes in chrono order with the original first season so I'm wondering just how jarring the difference is.

I'm also often wondering where the "money shots" are this season (the ones that Kyo-Ani knocks out of the park). Hopefully, they're saving budget for that set of 14 eps people seem to see on the horizon. There have been a few (I liked the forceful moment when Kyon is breaking the time loop and we see hundreds of Haruhi leaving the cafe).
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Old 2009-08-27, 17:17   Link #74
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Just wondering...
Are those people who STILL bring up K-On this episode, going to continue doing so for the rest of Sigh?

I want to discuss this episode for what's in it, not hearing the same complaints every week. Accept it and get over it. Doing this for one week is enough, you are getting in the way of real discussions.
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Old 2009-08-27, 17:37   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Just wondering...
Are those people who STILL bring up K-On this episode, going to continue doing so for the rest of Sigh?

I want to discuss this episode for what's in it, not hearing the same complaints every week. Accept it and get over it. Doing this for one week is enough, you are getting in the way of real discussions.
What "real discussions" are being blocked?

I don't know if anybody has noticed this, but... this thread would be almost dead right now, if not for the discussion on art style. If you eliminated all the posts made in the last three or four hours that mentioned art style, you'd be left with hardly anything - three posts, I think.

It seems to me that if people want us art critics to quiet down then they ought to offer up something else to talk about. So, with that being said... what specific piece of "what's in the episode" do you want to talk about?

And it's each individual fan's choice if they're going to "accept" something or not. There's "living with it", but "accept" implies something a bit stronger than that, imo.
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Old 2009-08-27, 17:41   Link #76
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Wow, the episode starts up abruptly again. Though I should've expected.

By the way, raws are out.
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Old 2009-08-27, 18:30   Link #77
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What "real discussions" are being blocked?

I don't know if anybody has noticed this, but... this thread would be almost dead right now, if not for the discussion on art style. If you eliminated all the posts made in the last three or four hours that mentioned art style, you'd be left with hardly anything - three posts, I think.

It seems to me that if people want us art critics to quiet down then they ought to offer up something else to talk about. So, with that being said... what specific piece of "what's in the episode" do you want to talk about?

And it's each individual fan's choice if they're going to "accept" something or not. There's "living with it", but "accept" implies something a bit stronger than that, imo.
That's only because the Raw isn't out yet. There would be plenty more discussion on the episode when the raws and subs come out.
(I would comment, but I missed the Justin screening this week)

And being a critic doesn't mean saying the same things every week. Why don't you just say "I hate the K-On style" at the start of every episode thread before the show aired to get it over with?

Let me repeat my question; are you going to complain about the art style every week from now on, or are you going to let it go eventually?
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Old 2009-08-27, 18:34   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Just wondering...
Are those people who STILL bring up K-On this episode, going to continue doing so for the rest of Sigh?

I want to discuss this episode for what's in it, not hearing the same complaints every week. Accept it and get over it. Doing this for one week is enough, you are getting in the way of real discussions.
So I guess you'd rather hear the same praise week after week.... that's okay is it?

There's really not much to discuss here since we're just seeing the behind-the-scenes making of the ep0 film. As others have said... mostly this reveals how exhausting it is dealing with energetic Haruhi on a daily basis.

I suppose we could get really analytical and do a tight comparison between the film we saw in ep0 and whether the poor continuity editor went insane trying to connect all the dots for these episodes.
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Old 2009-08-27, 18:40   Link #79
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Quote:
So I guess you'd rather hear the same praise week after week.... that's okay is it?
Yup, positive thinking is good by definition.
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Old 2009-08-27, 18:49   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
That's only because the Raw isn't out yet. There would be plenty more discussion on the episode when the raws and subs come out.
(I would comment, but I missed the Justin screening this week)

And being a critic doesn't mean saying the same things every week. Why don't you just say "I hate the K-On style" at the start of every episode thread before the show aired to get it over with?

Let me repeat my question; are you going to complain about the art style every week from now on, or are you going to let it go eventually?
As the art style did change a little every week, I don't think why we shoul stop discussing the matter.
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