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Old 2009-08-28, 23:11   Link #41
Archon_Wing
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One thing to remember is that we don't know what the higher ups in the 3 have planned, so anything they say has to be taken with a ton of salt. A lot of it is "we don't really know what will happen" and more theories than facts.
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Old 2009-08-28, 23:24   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kogetsu... who the hell would even want to reboot the entire universe over losing an amateur baseball game?!

The idea is patently absurd.
As I've said before, Haruhi truly believes that anyone is capable of what she can do. The problem wasn't the game itself, but rather the fact that no one was even coming close to her abilities. At that point, she probably believed no one else cared. That is where the problem lies.

Kyon in particular was expected to do better than he did, and his inability to live up to Haruhi's expectations of him certainly contributed quite a bit to her emotional state.
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... well... at least it's written the same...
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Old 2009-08-28, 23:32   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
As I've said before, Haruhi truly believes that anyone is capable of what she can do. The problem wasn't the game itself, but rather the fact that no one was even coming close to her abilities. At that point, she probably believed no one else cared. That is where the problem lies.

Kyon in particular was expected to do better than he did, and his inability to live up to Haruhi's expectations of him certainly contributed quite a bit to her emotional state.
... Ok, I like this reasoning, after giving it some thought. When you mentioned this reasoning before, I wasn't sure what to make of it at the time (which is why I didn't respond to it), but within the context of the baseball game... yeah, I see what you're saying here. It does, of course, also serve to explain why Haruhi doesn't feel special in spite of her considerable educational and athletic accomplishments.
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Old 2009-08-29, 01:53   Link #44
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I think everyone here has a really good idea on how Haruhi thinks. It's kind of strange really to me that we can't fully understand what her true thoughts are being the pure antagonist for the show. The only thing that I really wanna push is that I do not believe that Haruhi is a character who we can feel sympathetic about and I hope some of her personal issues are handled well in the light novels or anime.

The only thing that feels absurd to me about the whole issue is the "John Smith" thing. Honestly, there are many things wrong with the mentality of the whole issue. Why would she be so concerned about a guy that she knew for one day and treated him like crap the entire time. Not to mention, that the time-span was only 3 years and even in that period of time, she should be able to know who Kyon is by then.

I really think Triple_R has the right idea where Haruhi separates herself from humanity and humanity basically complies by not really caring about her. She does get her way and she does succeed, but the victories themselves are very empty. They only really please Haruhi and keep the espers from worrying. In fact, they are rather disheartening for the people involved like the baseball team or computer club.

Baltakatei is also right in the sense that she can't accept failure. It's hard to tell that if she's spoiled or if she sees others as being lowly to her that she's just so used to succeeding that she doesn't know how to experience failure and may over-react to it. (Which may be fine, but Koizumi and Mikuru do have that universe to worry about.)

In general, I think Haruhi may be more oblivious or unfocused than most people think because she doesn't think about many possibilities or what may lie ahead. You can really see this with Mikuru because of how often Haruhi gets jealous of her being close to Kyon. I don't think it occured to Haruhi, that because Mikuru-chan is seen as being one of the most attractive girls at the school, that Kyon also might find her attractive and get embarrassed when Mikuru is close.
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Old 2009-08-29, 03:08   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
I think everyone here has a really good idea on how Haruhi thinks. It's kind of strange really to me that we can't fully understand what her true thoughts are being the pure antagonist for the show.

I don't know if I'd call her the pure antagonist for the show. The goal, after all, is not to defeat Haruhi, but rather to manage her.

In fact, that's what a lot of the discussion on this thread is about. Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki aren't trying to change Haruhi, or to reform her as though she was a pure antagonist. They're not taking a pro-active approach and trying to actually reason with her. They're just trying to have events unfold in a way that pleases her, and manages her psychological state in a way that will prevent problems from arising. And they do this almost entirely on a case-by-case basis.

Here is where I give Kyon the most credit... and it's probably where I sympathize with him the most. He does have his moments of being pro-active; of actually trying to reason with Haruhi and get her to see things differently. The other SOS Brigade members don't even bother to try... they basically shift all responsibilities unto Kyon when it comes to making Haruhi more manageable on a long-term basis. If I was Kyon, I'd be a bit ticked off with them too.


Quote:
The only thing that I really wanna push is that I do not believe that Haruhi is a character who we can feel sympathetic about and I hope some of her personal issues are handled well in the light novels or anime.
I sympathize with her in the sense that there's nobody that fully shares her interests. Kyon holds those same interests to a degree, but nowhere near as passionately as Haruhi does; of course, that's partly (if not largely) due to how Haruhi is so energetic while Kyon is so, well, lazy usually.

Haruhi really has nobody to be a close personal friend with. Kyon shares her interests to a degree, but not her intensity. Tsuruya shares her intensity (just about), but not her interests. And Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki are just trying to manage and/or observe her. It's also a little bit dehumanizing the way that Kyon, Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki frequently view Haruhi. They want her to be happy not for her own sake, but for the world's.

Haruhi doesn't have anybody in her own universe much like her at all.

... There's some reason here to feel sympathy for her.


You could be right about the John Smith thing. Maybe people have attached too much significance to that. I'm mostly going with the flow there, I have to admit.


Quote:
I really think Triple_R has the right idea where Haruhi separates herself from humanity and humanity basically complies by not really caring about her. She does get her way and she does succeed, but the victories themselves are very empty. They only really please Haruhi and keep the espers from worrying. In fact, they are rather disheartening for the people involved like the baseball team or computer club.
Agreed, and thanks.

The signal most pitiable character in this anime remains the Computer Club President for me. Moreso than Mikuru - Mikuru chose to put herself in this situation; the Computer Club President didn't choose to be victimized by Haruhi.


Quote:
In general, I think Haruhi may be more oblivious or unfocused than most people think because she doesn't think about many possibilities or what may lie ahead.
Oh, I absolutely agree. I think that people sometimes mistake Haruhi's raw brilliance and energy to be a reflection of a keenly efficient and focused mind.

She doesn't have that, in my view. And, actually, her movie production shows it.

Haruhi's abundant, but raw, intelligence and creativity, comes out a lot during that production, as she puts forward some genuinely good ideas and observations. However, you also see how flighty she is; how she lacks disciplined thought and the ability to achieve smooth complete follow through. She moves pretty eccentrically from moment to moment, creating the movie in a piecemeal whimsical fashion.

In a way, this is what makes Haruhi so potentially dangerous - she's brilliant and she's erratic.
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Old 2009-08-29, 06:26   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't know if I'd call her the pure antagonist for the show. The goal, after all, is not to defeat Haruhi, but rather to manage her.
This still makes her the antagonist, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In fact, that's what a lot of the discussion on this thread is about. Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki aren't trying to change Haruhi, or to reform her as though she was a pure antagonist. They're not taking a pro-active approach and trying to actually reason with her. They're just trying to have events unfold in a way that pleases her, and manages her psychological state in a way that will prevent problems from arising. And they do this almost entirely on a case-by-case basis.
You are right here. However, as you said, Only Koizumi and his Organization have any motivation to do so. The reason they don't do nothing, in my opinion, is they are scare to death of her. I mean, as far as they know and believe, Haruhi is someone wo can destroy/remake the universe at any momment for the most trival things. They are not going to rist trying to change her, as this would possible make things even worse.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I sympathize with her in the sense that there's nobody that fully shares her interests. Kyon holds those same interests to a degree, but nowhere near as passionately as Haruhi does; of course, that's partly (if not largely) due to how Haruhi is so energetic while Kyon is so, well, lazy usually.

Haruhi really has nobody to be a close personal friend with. Kyon shares her interests to a degree, but not her intensity. Tsuruya shares her intensity (just about), but not her interests.
Interesting way to think here. Never have see it by that angle.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki are just trying to manage and/or observe her. It's also a little bit dehumanizing the way that Kyon, Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki frequently view Haruhi. They want her to be happy not for her own sake, but for the world's.
Well, most would find kinda hard thinking in anyone else while theworld is being destoryed. I would also like to point that Nagato don't give a damn to the world and Mikuru don't eve believe it is in danger (as she comes from a future that the world still exist). For Kyon, it seen he cares for Haruhi more then Koizumi. We can see in the Day of Sagitarius he thinks like you and believe a lost would be a benefit for Haruhi (he did allow the win not for Haruhi's sake, but for Nagato's).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
The only thing that feels absurd to me about the whole issue is the "John Smith" thing. Honestly, there are many things wrong with the mentality of the whole issue. Why would she be so concerned about a guy that she knew for one day and treated him like crap the entire time. Not to mention, that the time-span was only 3 years and even in that period of time, she should be able to know who Kyon is by then.
I don't understand you here. BLR makes clear she still thinks in that Tanabata. John Smith is important because what he said after the work. You would be right if he had just gone after that, however, he is to Haruhi the first evidence that something strange is happening. Not just he did completely vanish after that but he mentioned he didn't "met any slider yet". If this is not a translation error, then the phare carry a huge meaning that Haruhi probably just understood after have gone.

Last edited by Heatth; 2009-08-29 at 06:43.
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Old 2009-08-29, 06:29   Link #47
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If that's an error, it's one that every translation has.
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... well... at least it's written the same...
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Old 2009-08-29, 06:44   Link #48
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Do you know the original meaning then?

All the latin based languages translation on B-T seens to use it. It could be because all of then based their translation on the english one, however (I don't know if is true).

PP:
And then, I just now noticed you begined your post with a 'if'. Nevermind then.

Last edited by Heatth; 2009-08-29 at 10:28.
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Old 2009-08-29, 10:07   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
I think everyone here has a really good idea on how Haruhi thinks. It's kind of strange really to me that we can't fully understand what her true thoughts are being the pure antagonist for the show. The only thing that I really wanna push is that I do not believe that Haruhi is a character who we can feel sympathetic about and I hope some of her personal issues are handled well in the light novels or anime.

The only thing that feels absurd to me about the whole issue is the "John Smith" thing. Honestly, there are many things wrong with the mentality of the whole issue. Why would she be so concerned about a guy that she knew for one day and treated him like crap the entire time. Not to mention, that the time-span was only 3 years and even in that period of time, she should be able to know who Kyon is by then.
I would suspect that her concern for John Smith is threefold.
First, John Smith willingly helped her out in her act of grand vandalism. Any other random North High student who spotted her after hours wouldn't have been impressed with her egotism and she'd have been brought home to her parents in the back of a squad car. Imagine how the series would've turned out if that happened.

Second, there is the little conversation she and John Smith had after their successful vandalism of school grounds. They talked about weird and strange things. Conveniently she meets and talks to this strange man right after she made this huge Tanabata wish.

Spoiler:

Third, John Smith completely disappears after that special night. It's the first truly weird and out-of-this-world thing Haruhi witnesses. (The whole stranger turns up in the nick of time, willingly helps her, talks to her about weird things, and then is never seen ever again thing. If Kyon had gone back to the future right in front of Haruhi's eyes, it probably would've blown her mind. And the rest of the world as a direct result.)

Spoiler:

She doesn't quite equate Kyon to John Smith because it has been three years, and she's come to the very logical conclusion that John Smith must've graduated high school by the time she started. Though there seems to be something about this 'Kyon' guy . . .
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Old 2009-08-29, 10:21   Link #50
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Any other random North High student who spotted her after hours wouldn't have been impressed with her egotism and she'd have been brought home to her parents in the back of a squad car. Imagine how the series would've turned out if that happened.
There's just one thing I can say about that...


YOU CREATED A TIME PARADOX!!
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... well... at least it's written the same...
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Old 2009-08-29, 10:53   Link #51
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She wasn't only looking for John Smith, she was also looking for "the person that was like her" that Kyon mentioned
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:14   Link #52
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This still makes her the antagonist, though.
"Antagonist" is such a loaded word, though. These days it's used interchangeably with "villain", which Haruhi most definitely is not.

I'd rather use "driving force of the plot", myself.
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:19   Link #53
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So... "Miss Plot Device," then?
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... well... at least it's written the same...
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:30   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
"Antagonist" is such a loaded word, though. These days it's used interchangeably with "villain", which Haruhi most definitely is not.

I'd rather use "driving force of the plot", myself.
Overall, I'd agree. Haruhi wasn't an antagonist at all in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody or Endless Eight.
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Old 2009-08-29, 14:19   Link #55
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
"Antagonist" is such a loaded word, though. These days it's used interchangeably with "villain", which Haruhi most definitely is not.

I'd rather use "driving force of the plot", myself.
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Overall, I'd agree. Haruhi wasn't an antagonist at all in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody or Endless Eight.
Oh, I don't know much about how the englsih language changes... In the classical use of the wod she was the antagonist of EE(it was she who caused the loops). She did stop being the antagonst (chronologically) after Live A Live, however. She also wasn't during the BLR, as you said, Triple, and during the Lone Island (when it was Itsuki, insted).

'Miss Plot Device' work too.
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Old 2009-08-29, 14:33   Link #56
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Oh, I don't know much about how the englsih language changes... In the classical use of the wod she was the antagonist of EE(it was she who caused the loops). She did stop being the antagonst (chronologically) after Live A Live, however. She also wasn't during the BLR, as you said, Triple, and during the Lone Island (when it was Itsuki, insted).

'Miss Plot Device' work too.
Ah, I see, you're using 'antagonist' in the classic sense of "The character that presents problems and conflict for the protagonist". In more modern uses, though, a necessary prerequisite to the label "antagonist" is usually "A character that deliberately causes problems and conflict for the protagonist".

In Sighs, Haruhi is intentionally causing a hard time for Kyon and the gang... I mean, she's hearing their complaints, so...

In BLR and EE, though, Haruhi isn't really intentionally causing any problems. And, through out the anime/novels as a whole, she rarely does.
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Old 2009-08-29, 14:49   Link #57
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In more modern uses, though, a necessary prerequisite to the label "antagonist" is usually "A character that deliberately causes problems and conflict for the protagonist".
Hmm, really? Didn't know that. This is what I would call 'villian'(tough this word might be too 'evil'). Eh you don't have another word for 'antagonist' then? Is an important consept in fiction isn't it? Should I call her a 'antagonist in the classical sense'?

Well, then I would say Haruhi was never an antagonist then. Even in Sighs, the problem was not the movie itself. Also, the only complening was Mikuru, Kyon(the protagonist) had nothing against the movie, but against how she treats Asahina.

PP:
In that sense of the word there is very few antagonist. For this wholle season(new+old episodes), the only ones were Ryouko and Koizumi(and his organization, at Lone Island).
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Old 2009-08-29, 15:00   Link #58
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Hmm, really? Didn't know that. This is what I would call 'villian'(tough this word might be too 'evil'). Eh you don't have another word for 'antagonist' then? Is an important consept in fiction isn't it? Should I call her a 'antagonist in the classical sense'?

Well, then I would say Haruhi was never an antagonist then. Even in Sighs, the problem was not the movie itself. Also, the only complening was Mikuru, Kyon(the protagonist) had nothing against the movie, but against how she treats Asahina.

PP:
In that sense of the word there is very few antagonist. For this wholle season(new+old episodes), the only ones were Ryouko and Koizumi(and his organization, at Lone Island).
You're right. Ryoko is the only true antagonist/villain that this anime has... at least thus far. Well... the Computer Club President is somewhat of an antagonist in Day of Sagittarius.

It's important to remember that a lot of animes don't have antagonists. K-On is completely bereft of them, for example.

For me, a villain is a character that deliberately causes problems and conflict for the protagonist... and is doing so for what most fans (at least) would consider villainous reasons. In Sighs, I would consider Haruhi's motivation for making the movie to be a good one - she wants to make her school's cultural festival better. It's still causing frustration/suffering for the SOS Brigade, though.


Let me give you an example of a character that's an antagonist but not a villain: Fate Testarossa in the original Nanoha anime.

Fate is deliberately causing problems and conflict for Nanoha... but she's doing it to help her mom, and it's not like she wants to hurt Nanoha; it's just that it's impossible for both of them to have all the jewel seeds.

Precia Testarossa is a good example of a villain. She delights in inflicting pain on Fate, after Fate switches to the protagonist side.


I should say, though, Heatth, that this is just my opinion. The terms antagonist and villain can be used very differently from site to site. Some sites are loath to call anybody a villain... other sites throw the term around casually.
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Old 2009-08-29, 15:11   Link #59
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You're right. Ryoko is the only true antagonist/villain that this anime has... at least thus far. Well... the Computer Club President is somewhat of an antagonist in Day of Sagittarius.

It's important to remember that a lot of animes don't have antagonists. K-On is completely bereft of them, for example.
The Computer Club President! I've forgot about him. Yeah, he was the antagonist there. Btw I would say the antagonist of K-ON is the laziness of the girls. It is what prevent then to be a sucess as a band. But, well, is not like their objectives is beinga sucess(it is, actually, have fun), so I guess you are right

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For me, a villain is a character that deliberately causes problems and conflict for the protagonist... and is doing so for what most fans (at least) would consider villainous reasons. In Sighs, I would consider Haruhi's motivation for making the movie to be a good one - she wants to make her school's cultural festival better. It's still causing frustration/suffering for the SOS Brigade, though.
You are right. 'Vilian' was not the better word.

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Let me give you an example of a character that's an antagonist but not a villain: Fate Testarossa in the original Nanoha anime.

Fate is deliberately causing problems and conflict for Nanoha... but she's doing it to help her mom, and it's not like she wants to hurt Nanoha; it's just that it's impossible for both of them to have all the jewel seeds.

Precia Testarossa is a good example of a villain. She delights in inflicting pain on Fate, after Fate switches to the protagonist side.
Well, too bad I never watch Nanoha. I understand your point anyway. Another antagonist who is not a villian would be L from Death Note, even better, Matsuda and Father Yagami, both completely good person who are against the (vilanious) protagonist. Other exemples would be Chao from Negima!(not-so-bad things for an arguebly good reason), many aliens from GANTZ (many just stay quiet when the protagonist come to slay then) and most rivals from a competition anime (like Gary of Pokemon or Akira from Hikaru no Go).
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Old 2009-08-29, 15:15   Link #60
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The Computer Club President! I've forgot about him. Yeah, he was the antagonist there. Btw I would say the antagonist of K-ON is the laziness of the girls.
*ROFLMAO!!!*

Thanks, Heatth. That's the best laugh I've had all day.


Quote:
It is what prevent then to be a sucess as a band. But, well, is not like their objectives is beinga sucess(it is, actually, have fun), so I guess you are right

You are right. 'Vilian' was not the better word.

Well, too bad I never watch Nanoha. I understand your point anyway. Another antagonist who is not a villian would be L from Death Note, even better, Matsuda and Father Yagami, both completely good person who are against the (vilanious) protagonist. Other exemples would be Chao from Negima!(not-so-bad things for an arguebly good reason), many aliens from GANTZ (many just stay quiet when the protagonist come to slay then) and most rivals from a competition anime (like Gary of Pokemon or Akira from Hikaru no Go).
You catch on fast, Heatth! Those are all good examples of how antagonist and villain are used these days.
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