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Old 2009-08-29, 10:42   Link #81
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
I think you took some lines too serious, Triple. Like the flower metaphor. However, I see your point and agree wit then. Kyon seens to be conseiderable more irrited then usual in Sighs. Which is quite comprehensible.
Well, I don't seriously think that Kyon thinks that Haruhi is infertile (going by the flower metaphor)... I was joking there. All the flower metaphor shows is that, at this point in the novels, Kyon really likes Mikuru... and doesn't like Haruhi very much.

Honestly, folks, any reading of Novel 2 that doesn't presuppose that Kyon is constantly lying to himself has to reach the conclusion that at this point, Kyon doesn't like Haruhi. You simply don't think this way about people that you like; not constantly, at least.
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Old 2009-08-29, 10:47   Link #82
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But it's Volume 2 guys. Y'know, the "worst" of the series. Of course even the best characters act the worst in it.
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Old 2009-08-29, 10:49   Link #83
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Here's a question I always had, Is his narration part of the film they make, or is it in his head?
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Old 2009-08-29, 10:53   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, I don't seriously think that Kyon thinks that Haruhi is infertile (going by the flower metaphor)... I was joking there. All the flower metaphor shows is that, at this point in the novels, Kyon really likes Mikuru... and doesn't like Haruhi very much.
No, it is not about the infertile part I would say these metaphor only prooves he likes Mikuru, but not he dislake Haruhi. He says he don't like her pretty much every book, yet we knows this is not true (because how he acts in pretty much every book).

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Honestly, folks, any reading of Novel 2 that doesn't presuppose that Kyon is constantly lying to himself has to reach the conclusion that at this point, Kyon doesn't like Haruhi. You simply don't think this way about people that you like; not constantly, at least.
I agree with you here. I would say, however, he is/was annoyed/angry with Haruhi at that momment. She was being a bitch during this book anyway. However, ist not like he hated her before (he acts natural at book3 and really seens to like her at the end of Melancholly). He also forgived her after Live A Live (that happened just after).
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Old 2009-08-29, 11:01   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
No, it is not about the infertile part I would say these metaphor only prooves he likes Mikuru, but not he dislake Haruhi. He says he don't like her pretty much every book, yet we knows this is not true (because how he acts in pretty much every book).
Kyon, imo, has a love/hate relationship with Haruhi. She both annoys him, and excites him. He tends to focus on the former... but every now and then, he'll admit the latter, at least to himself.

I personally prefer this interpretation of his character over the idea that he's almost constantly lying to himself.

But, I won't deny that the "constantly lying to himself" theory is more popular within the Haruhi fandom. I respect that it's the dominant theory even if I don't quite buy into it myself.


Quote:
I agree with you here. I would say, however, he is/was annoyed/angry with Haruhi at that momment. She was being a bitch during this book anyway. However, ist not like he hated her before (he acts natural at book3 and really seens to like her at the end of Melancholly). He also forgived her after Live A Live (that happened just after).
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But it's Volume 2 guys. Y'know, the "worst" of the series. Of course even the best characters act the worst in it.
These quotes are both true. It's true that his narration is at its harshest in Sighs.
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Old 2009-08-29, 11:35   Link #86
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Kyon's a male tsundere in regards to Haruhi. Let's just leave it at that.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:19   Link #87
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Soooo, she'll go "Mii~, Say my name, Onii-chan."
Best girlfriend ever.

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I find it slightly amusing that you'd be willing to give a seiyuu you associate with Rika... to a character named "Miyoko."
...Dammit, I should have realized that.

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But it's Volume 2 guys. Y'know, the "worst" of the series. Of course even the best characters act the worst in it.
At least the anime has made it a hell of a lot better.
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:32   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Kyon's a male tsundere in regards to Haruhi. Let's just leave it at that.
That's a much more succinct way of putting it than how I did, I'll admit.

Yes, Kyon's a male tsundere. That describes his relationship with Haruhi perfectly, imo.

Outside of his relations with Haruhi, he's a pretty regular guy.
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:35   Link #89
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... Hence the "in regards to Haruhi."
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:39   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
... Hence the "in regards to Haruhi."
I know. I was just making sure you knew that I was in complete agreement with you.

I also want to add that the anime does an awesome job (thus far) of softening both Haruhi and Kyon in Sighs. They're way more likable (or, well, less unlikeable, at least) in the anime version of the story than in the novel. I have pretty much no problem whatsoever with how Kyon has come across in this year's episodes 10 through 12.
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:45   Link #91
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... *sigh* Let's just hope they don't throw it all away when they finally get around to Disappearance... the inevitable loss of narration is gonna kill his character as it stands.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:49   Link #92
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... *sigh* Let's just hope they don't throw it all away when they finally get around to Disappearance... the inevitable loss of narration is gonna kill his character as it stands.
Depends on how many episodes they devote to it. If they go with five or more, then I definitely think that almost all of Kyon's narration for that novel will be retained. And I agree with you, that narration is essential there; otherwise, a lot of what Kyon does may seem inexplicable and impulsive.

If they go with four or less episodes though, or with a movie...

Of course this is all presuming that they will animate Disappearance at some point. I honestly still have doubts about that...
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Old 2009-08-29, 14:34   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kyon, imo, has a love/hate relationship with Haruhi. She both annoys him, and excites him. He tends to focus on the former... but every now and then, he'll admit the latter, at least to himself.

I personally prefer this interpretation of his character over the idea that he's almost constantly lying to himself.

But, I won't deny that the "constantly lying to himself" theory is more popular within the Haruhi fandom. I respect that it's the dominant theory even if I don't quite buy into it myself.
Hmmm, I think you are right here. As Kogetsu said, a male tsundere. However, he did lie a lot to himself about how he likes supernatural stuff. He acts, and narrates, as he really don't care about it. Yet, he have a big passionate monologue to Haruhi saying how their original world is cool because of that stuff. And there is Disappearance(where I agree with you two, btw, the narration is important).

Seeing that lies, is not that hard to conclude he also lies about Haruhi. I do think you hate/love explanation fit better, however. There is more line of him being harsh to Haruhi then to him being uninterested about weird stuff.
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Old 2009-08-29, 14:52   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
Hmmm, I think you are right here. As Kogetsu said, a male tsundere. However, he did lie a lot to himself about how he likes supernatural stuff. He acts, and narrates, as he really don't care about it. Yet, he have a big passionate monologue to Haruhi saying how their original world is cool because of that stuff. And there is Disappearance(where I agree with you two, btw, the narration is important).

Seeing that lies, is not that hard to conclude he also lies about Haruhi. I do think you hate/love explanation fit better, however. There is more line of him being harsh to Haruhi then to him being uninterested about weird stuff.
He lies to himself a bit about Haruhi, no doubt. And he softens on her over time, imo.
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Old 2009-08-30, 01:43   Link #95
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I know quite well how to read in context. I was very careful to put those narration quotes in context - even going out of my way to point out how one came after the "pour hot tea on Kyon" command by Haruhi.

And how can you not take this narration seriously? His narration is almost constantly like this in Novel 2... his profuse complimenting narration over Mikuru being about the only break from it. A snarky comment every now and then can be a simple joke. Constant snark is a bit more than that, imo.

Look, you're free to like Kyon and interpret his snark differently. But I don't see where the way that I'm taking his narration is wrong. And, clearly, there are people who are fans of this series and don't like Kyon.

Myself? I see his good points... and his bad.
If you're taking his snarky narration seriously at all, you're taking things too seriously. It's snark. Its whole point is to not be taken seriously... And way to try to distract from my point by attempting (unsuccessfully, btw) to paint me as a rabid Kyon fan. My difference in "interpreting his snark" (not quite what I was talking about, thus further proving my context point) nor anything else I said in that post has anything to do with me liking Kyon (or not). Few things bug me more than when people think that kind of approach helps an argument...

As for missing the context... Okay, I didn't have time to go into detail earlier, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Spoiler for Chapter 1 spoiler:
He's not saying she's "dumb" (I assume you mean specifically "ignorant") or "brainless" ("not intelligent") here. He's saying she doesn't think. This is what I mean by context. She is very obviously in this scene (the infamous "spill hot tea on Kyon scene" as you put it) NOT thinking, specifically about the repercussions. It would not make sense for him to call her dumb or brainless in this scene, but stupid? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Get a load of this comparison between Haruhi and Mikuru...

Spoiler for Chapter 1 of Sighs:
Again, not what he's talking about. He is suggesting that she has no redeeming qualities in comparison with Mikuru. It's as much deredere Mikuru action as snark. Haruhi's just the unlucky point of comparison.

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Now, some short zingers... (my comments for each is in paranthesis).

Spoiler for Sighs spoilers in general:
On the first one, that might be an inside joke from the author. While BLR was written, was published (in Sneaker), and is set before Sigh, when it comes to novel readers, BLR (and Haruhi's Tanabata-fueled Relativity-fest) will be encountered after Sigh.

Of course maybe it's just Kyon (and Yuki) acknowledging Haruhi's questionable continuity when it comes to actually obeying the laws of physics...

On the second one, I don't see how anyone can read this as Kyon maliciously wishing for Haruhi to be terrified. Going back to one of the ones above, Haruhi does not acknowledge the repercussions of her actions at all. She has very little to non-existent self-control. And as proven by the end of Melancholy, her brain is out to lunch when it comes to situations where she should rightly be scared out of her mind. Does he wish for Haruhi to encounter a situation where she quits with the bullheadedness and stops to think about her surroundings? Absolutely. The series is full of examples where he as much as says this. Does he specifically wish for her to be terrified? Probably not, but would her being scared put her in a situation where she has to take stock of her situation? Most likely. Keep in mind too that "terrified" is a very strong term, and, this being a translation, might not be connotatively accurate. "Scared" or even "unsettled" could be more accurate. I don't know.
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Old 2009-08-30, 02:12   Link #96
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On the second one, I don't see how anyone can read this as Kyon maliciously wishing for Haruhi to be terrified. Going back to one of the ones above, Haruhi does not acknowledge the repercussions of her actions at all. She has very little to non-existent self-control. And as proven by the end of Melancholy, her brain is out to lunch when it comes to situations where she should rightly be scared out of her mind. Does he wish for Haruhi to encounter a situation where she quits with the bullheadedness and stops to think about her surroundings? Absolutely. The series is full of examples where he as much as says this. Does he specifically wish for her to be terrified? Probably not, but would her being scared put her in a situation where she has to take stock of her situation? Most likely. Keep in mind too that "terrified" is a very strong term, and, this being a translation, might not be connotatively accurate. "Scared" or even "unsettled" could be more accurate. I don't know.
I didn't think this needed to be explained... I guess some people are just dense. Still, nicely done.

As for being truly terrified, Haruhi has already experienced this once. Kyon's epic adventure where he challenged the mighty stairwell with nothing but his face should come to mind.
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Old 2009-08-30, 07:08   Link #97
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... And here I was, worried that Nagato's thread would be the one where problems would arise.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-30, 07:17   Link #98
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... And here I was, worried that Nagato's thread would be the one where problems would arise.
Thanks for the advice.
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Old 2009-09-02, 21:41   Link #99
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ever since i started reading the series i have always thought that Haruhi definately like Kyon but Kyon on the other hand is extremely reluctant to even admit to himself that he sees Haruhi nothing more than a burden that he has to look after but in reality actually does have stronger feeling for her.

i have also thought that Kyon is way more melancholic than Haruhi for the facts that he himself hadd all the same expectations of Haruhi but accepted the fate that he is just another human and nother extrodianry will ever happen which is the complete opposite of haruhi and for that Kyon is jealous in a way that even though he is surrounded by all the things he wanted as a child still cannot see the fun side like Haruhi and for that reason he acts the way he does.
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Old 2009-09-03, 02:43   Link #100
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The things that really strike me about Kyon's relationship toward Haruhi are really the following two:
  1. When Haruhi is happy and energetic, Kyon is genuinely annoyed at how she acts.
  2. But on the other hand, when Haruhi is sad or troubled, Kyon often seems to be genuinely concerned about her.

Some examples of the latter:

Spoiler for various anime and novel:


However, this is not something that Kyon does exclusively toward Haruhi. He is also often concerned about the emotional well-being of Asahina and Nagato, as seen in situations like:
Spoiler for various:


To me it really seems like Kyon seriously wants Haruhi to mellow out and treat other people better, wants Nagato to open up a bit more and acknowledge her emotions, and wants Asahina to develop more confidence and self-esteem like her older self (though he's still unnerved by Asahina (big), which complicates matters).

As for his endless fawning over Asahina and snarking over Haruhi, I tend to dismiss those because both are really just words, and really superficial. The thing that should count the most toward how we judge his relationships is how he acts toward the other girls, and not a bunch of words that he never acts upon. And I think that's one of the most interesting things about Kyon as a character and narrator—he talks and talks and talks, which tends to drown out lots of small things that are really important, and often don't even get a mention.
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