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Old 2009-08-30, 11:46   Link #2281
Rah
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What part of 'be with you forever' and 10 years don't you understand?

Athena and Nagi could always fuse together. Why wouldn't that be possible since there are aliens, giant robots, ghosts and demons, plus time traveling and whatnot..

Someone above mentioned Athena dying because of whatever circumstance. The stones sound more and more like dragonballs... hmm.. anyway, how about they do actually work, but require a sacrifice (unknown to the person expressing the wish). Horray 1 down!

....
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Old 2009-08-30, 11:53   Link #2282
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What part of 'be with you forever' and 10 years don't you understand?....
I understand that much, my point was he never left her out of his own volition. He didn't wake up one day and thought "well, fuck this shit" and left. Things he could have done nothing about happened, and they had to separate. However, both of them still cared about that promise. As long as he and Athena think the promise still stands, then it still stands.
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Old 2009-08-30, 11:56   Link #2283
Rah
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Even if it wasn't broken willingly or directly, the promise was about being together forever. After a 10 year separation that hardly still stands..

Well whatever... anything can be overcome with an eye to eye chat.
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Old 2009-08-30, 11:58   Link #2284
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Well shit finally did hit the fan. It shall be interesting to see how the manga moves from here. It could be terrible and it could be amazing.

I REALLY hope Hata knows what he is doing. However, this is my favorite manga so I shall give him the benefit of the doubt for now.
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Old 2009-08-30, 14:44   Link #2285
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Okay, initially I was planning to wait for the scans to make sure that no nuances are lost in the translation, but I trust Primuler's script, so I'll try to make a couple of points, after trying to sort my thoughts a little bit.

1) There is nothing to criticize Hayate for

His confession-of-sorts was explicitly asked for by Hina. It's also clear that he never knew about Hina's romantic intentions, so I also don't think he can be called rude or insensitive. If that's truly what he feels, more power to him. It's also better for Hina to learn about it ASAP.

2) I pity Hayate for this decision (personal opinion - so please let me live, A-tan faction)

You know, part of me thinks that he's suffering a form of Stockholm Syndrome ^_^ ... or battered wife syndrome, take your pick. In my personal opinion, Athena hasn't done anything to deserve this kind of blind devotion. I also think that Hayate still has a very crooked idea of "love", since he has been used and exploited in the past, primarily by his parents, but also by Athena. In my opinion, love is a voluntary union of two people who deeply care for the other one. I doubt that Athena passes this threshold (and I also have the feeling that she will eventually turn out to be an antagonist - at least to the Nagi faction). But maybe I'm biased by the fact that it seems that the honest, selfless care for the other might not be rewarded. And sorry, I simply haven't see this aspect in Athena so far. Rather the forging of Hayate into the guy SHE wants him to be.

3) It's too early in the show for an ending

The confession-of-sorts doesn't fit in the drama arc for Athena. I have difficulties seeing that Hayate's statement is the turning point of the show. How is the ending supposed to look like, from now on? Nagi will not release Hayate to Athena, and I also don't see Hayate deserting Nagi for her. Also, it would feel strangely anticlimactic to me drop the bomb in the lap of another main contender and then ride this wave till the end. There's more to happen before we really reach crunch time.

4) Alot will depend on Hina's reaction now

I can see two main paths. The most logical one would be Hina recoiling and retreating, licking her wounds. I couldn't blame her and would probably do the same (though it wouldn't help at all). However, this would toss the entire romantic development a major curveball and lead to more Hina angst and moping, so I hope we can avert that, particularly since I fail to see the story's followup. I sure don't want 20 more chapters of Hina agonizing over what she should do, and it would be unlike her to just easily give up. Another possibility would be that Hina's strong competitive streak is tickled and she aggressively confesses herself, throwing down the gauntlet. This would then give the story a "fight for Hayate" spin, which I'd kinda prefer.

5) It does matter that this bomb was dropped in _Hina's_ lap

Not Nagi's, not Maria's, not Ayumu's. Hina's. The main reason I see is that she's the main rival on the _romantic_ angle. He has a strong bond with Nagi, but he doesn't see her as romantic material at all. He could have easily have this kind of "confide for help" talk with Maria, but he didn't. It would have been interesting to see Ayumu's reaction to it (if Hina retreats, I'm sure we will find out). Still, Hata went for maximum impact - and that meant, slamming Hina into this. In my opinion this just underlines her importance. And assuming the classic drama arc, this would be about the time when the heroes are on their knees.

6) I'm still very unhappy about this scene - unless he really goes for an Athena ending

Why? Because I simply can't see an Athena ending at all. But if he does NOT end up with her, I want to know how Hata will avoid the feeling of having any ending girl be more than the second-best choice. It would require some major change in story direction AND storytelling to narrate a proper "change of heart", and somehow I have difficulties picturing this

7) At least it's not School Rumble

It seems we're getting somewhere for real. It may not be the direction I personally prefer, but I guess that the endless circle of misunderstandings without progress which drove me mad in SR will be broken here. At least, Hata promised a conclusive ending. Let's see where we're going.
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Old 2009-08-30, 14:54   Link #2286
Rah
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What love? Hayate is a freggin masochist. HE LOVES PAIN.

Ah, I see now.. THAT LOVE... yesss it explains everything.
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Old 2009-08-30, 16:15   Link #2287
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
. Rather the forging of Hayate into the guy SHE wants him to be.
That is too a strong statement. Athena already had feelings for Hayate even when he was a weakling,unmanly, and a coward. She was the only person that loves Hayate for what he truly was. She trainned him to be a proper man and give him the strength needed when he wants to protect someone; she had the ability to which neither Hina,Nagi, Ayumu nor anyone else has. Or do you prefer Hayate to be a weakling, a coward, and unprotective?
Because of Athena did Hina, Ayumu, Nagi... falls for Hayate. Athena basically helped Hayate created his own harem.
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Old 2009-08-30, 16:55   Link #2288
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That's not too strong a statement of mine, that's exactly what she did. She forged Hayate into her idea of her companion. Not without moments of kindness, but also with the famous kicks of love ^_^;

Was that a bad thing? Well, no, not necessarily. Obviously the skills he attained through her training serve him well, and one can argue that he's now reaping the rewards. I wouldn't even want to really criticize Athena for it, I'm just stating a fact. Hayate and Athena aren't a pair on eye level. This is not a union of two independent people, it's a master-servant relationship. This is great as long as their wishes coincide, but on the first incidents in which they did not, it was My Way Or the Highway. So, it's an asymmetrical relationship.

I think it's obvious that Athena is under some strange kind of compulsion, so I want to know more about her before I can form a firm oponion on her, but... do you really want to contest that her positive traits notwithstanding (compassion and kindness) she has a clear self-centered streak?
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Old 2009-08-30, 18:08   Link #2289
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That's not too strong a statement of mine, that's exactly what she did. She forged Hayate into her idea of her companion. Not without moments of kindness, but also with the famous kicks of love ^_^;

Was that a bad thing? Well, no, not necessarily. Obviously the skills he attained through her training serve him well, and one can argue that he's now reaping the rewards. I wouldn't even want to really criticize Athena for it, I'm just stating a fact. Hayate and Athena aren't a pair on eye level. This is not a union of two independent people, it's a master-servant relationship. This is great as long as their wishes coincide, but on the first incidents in which they did not, it was My Way Or the Highway. So, it's an asymmetrical relationship.

I think it's obvious that Athena is under some strange kind of compulsion, so I want to know more about her before I can form a firm oponion on her, but... do you really want to contest that her positive traits notwithstanding (compassion and kindness) she has a clear self-centered streak?
Her idea of companion? Athena already liked Hayate for what he "was," not because he is strong nor depend nor courageous. That means whether Hayate become what he is or not, she still loves him. He had no need to be "forged" to become what she wants because she already loves him. However, it is true that she may "forged" him into what he is: determine, courageous, protective, strong, and kind to girls.

Without those skills and what she did to his body, and even more so, if he had not met her, Hayate would literally be nothing. Probably dead (seriously with those parents of his) a long time ago.
master-servant relationship? Are you sure you'd read TEoTW arc? He cured her loneliness and gave her a name; she saved him when he needed most and gave him a home, this is no master-servant relationship. (He ran away from home, she lived by herself, this is not an example of two independent people?)I don't mind how you think about their relationship; but when Hata said Athena was his lover in one of the chapters, thats all the prove anyone needs.

I won't mind having this contest of which you speak.
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Old 2009-08-30, 18:34   Link #2290
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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Her idea of companion? Athena already liked Hayate for what he "was," not because he is strong nor depend nor courageous.
Look. "A guy must be able to fulfill the financial needs of the girl till the end of his life". "You must become stronger than everybody else". You must do this, you must become that. Yes. She's been forging him according to HER ideas. You can't seriously contest that, can you?

Quote:
That means whether Hayate become what he is or not, she still loves him. He had no need to be "forged" to become what she wants because she already loves him. However, it is true that she may "forged" him into what he is: determine, courageous, protective, strong, and kind to girls.
She trained him into a capable SERVANT. Or, to quote Hinagiku: "It's due to this witch's strange ideas that he became so warped." - when Hayate explained why he couldn't date a girl, as A-tan kicked it into him.

I'm not contesting that she has feelings for him, but it's a FACT that she trained him to what he is now. And as helpful and admirable Hayate is in most aspects, as stunted he is in others, particularly emotional ones.

Quote:
master-servant relationship? Are you sure you'd read TEoTW arc?
Yes, and I reread it before writing my initial note.

Quote:
He cured her loneliness and gave her a name; she saved him when he needed most and gave him a home, this is no master-servant relationship.
You ARE aware that she took him in as her butler, right? You ARE aware that she's the one who's ordering him around, telling him what to do, what to learn, what to achieve?

Quote:
(He ran away from home, she lived by herself, this is not an example of two independent people?)
The first time Hayate wanted to do something different than Athena, what happened then? Do you remember?

Quote:
I don't mind how you think about their relationship; but when Hata said Athena was his lover in one of the chapters, thats all the prove anyone needs.
Proof for what? That they're lovers? That's fine with me. My point is that they're asymmetrical lovers. Everything is fine as long as he agrees to do what she wants. But when he doesn't...

Anyway, if that's what Hayate truly wants, more power to him. I'd be happier if he'd go back not due to some massive guilt trip (which he kept to this very day), or because he promised to always be together (I'm curious how he'll reconcile this with his promise to Nagi), but because he wants to be with her. Because he wants to be there for her. And vice versa. Alas, we'll see.
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Old 2009-08-30, 18:50   Link #2291
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The first time Hayate wanted to do something different than Athena, what happened then? Do you remember?
She agreed with his idea?
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Old 2009-08-30, 18:52   Link #2292
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Um, this might be a stupid request, but can someone tell me what happened (or is happening) with Ayumu? What are her chances with Hayate?
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Old 2009-08-30, 18:56   Link #2293
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She agreed with his idea?
I'm referring to leaving the castle. You know what happened.
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Old 2009-08-30, 19:03   Link #2294
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I have to agree with Mentar, Athena pretty much decided what Hayate was going to be for him. It's not a particularly bad thing as what he was before wasn't much to boast about. Still, his only actual dream or ambition in life that was genuinely his is to someday own a basic apartment; and he isn't even sure if he can achieve it in his lifetime. Needless to say he has been warped before belief and desperately needs someone who can bring out his best traits. I really wouldn't like it if he kept being a servant forever, and since that seems to be the mind set he had driven into him, somebody is going to have to teach him to be assertive.

So far, Hinagiku seems to be the only one to go along these lines when it comes to Hayate. I always liked how she tried to help him by telling him to give confidant answers, voice his own opinions, be a little selfish once in a while so that he can find happiness, etc. Everyone else, except Isumi, Ayumu and possibly Maria, treats him like a servant, especially Nagi, Sakuya, and Athena.

I think it's too early to tell what's going to happen. We really need everyone's input on the situation and confirm everybody's current feelings or else it's just wild speculation. Seriously, at this point I can make a valid claim for Hayate ending up with almost any person (male, female, or other) in the series because everything is kept so vague.

The only new bit I have to my theory now is that Athena may be screwed if she still wants Hayate. Going by standard romantic comedy tropes and plot lines, even the often bizarre subversions that Hata manages to pull off, then things are not going to end well. Basically, unless it's the end of the story (and it's not) then the hero (that's Hayate) never openly says he loves someone because it would end the tension, so something is going to happen that usually breaks his heart and pushes him in a new direction. Anything at all could still happen, but just because Hayate says he loves Athena now doesn't mean that it's a clear path to the end for them.
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Old 2009-08-30, 19:09   Link #2295
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I'm referring to leaving the castle. You know what happened.
You asked:

Quote:
The first time Hayate wanted to do something different than Athena, what happened then?
And to that I answered that she agreed with his idea (i.e. leaving the Royal Garden, and living with Hayate's parents). At first she was reluctant (for it seems she has similar problems with her parents - Hina hinted at this as well), but then Hayate managed to convince her.

They parted ways because of a misunderstanding (and the fact Royal Garden got sealed, preventing Hayate from returning), not because of a disagreement.
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Old 2009-08-30, 19:13   Link #2296
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For me, I have a hunch that Nagi would be instrumental in enabling Hayate and Athena to come together again, as there are certain interrelated elements here that aren't immediately apparent that are likely to surface later.
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Old 2009-08-30, 19:37   Link #2297
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And to that I answered that she agreed with his idea (i.e. leaving the Royal Garden, and living with Hayate's parents). At first she was reluctant (for it seems she has similar problems with her parents - Hina hinted at this as well), but then Hayate managed to convince her.
No, she didn't. Not once. First, she simply flat-out rejected "end of discussion" (so much for equality), and in the end, Hayate eagerly rushed away when she only said "That's...". Not once did she agree.

Quote:
They parted ways because of a misunderstanding (and the fact Royal Garden got sealed, preventing Hayate from returning), not because of a disagreement.
What "misunderstanding"? There was no such thing. A-tan refused to go because Hayate's parents sold her precious ring, and so she decided that not only SHE wouldn't leave, noooo... Hayate wouldn't leave either. "I won't let you go anymore". And "Forget everything about these parents" and "They're trash, they will only make you unhappy". You really want to reread c185.

That's exactly what I mean with asymmetrical. A-tan is calling the shots, end of story.
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Old 2009-08-30, 19:51   Link #2298
zodanhko
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Look. "A guy must be able to fulfill the financial needs of the girl till the end of his life". "You must become stronger than everybody else". You must do this, you must become that. Yes. She's been forging him according to HER ideas. You can't seriously contest that, can you?
If you said she was forging into what he is both physically and mentality, I whole-heartly agreed.
However, Since she already loved him before "forging" him, he does not need to be an "ideal" companion for she to love him, nor does she needed to "forge" him into a better partner to love him, but a better man.

Quote:
She trained him into a capable SERVANT. Or, to quote Hinagiku: "It's due to this witch's strange ideas that he became so warped." - when Hayate explained why he couldn't date a girl, as A-tan kicked it into him.
She wanted to help him improve both his personality and strength regardless of him being a servant. She gave him the power to protect others which is what a man should do. Butler is one thing, helped him with his personailty and what he can become is another.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hayate...er/c182/6.html


Quote:
I'm not contesting that she has feelings for him, but it's a FACT that she trained him to what he is now. And as helpful and admirable Hayate is in most aspects, as stunted he is in others, particularly emotional ones.
Of course, she trainned him to become what he is, that is the only reason why the other girls fall for him in the first place.


Quote:
You ARE aware that she took him in as her butler, right? You ARE aware that she's the one who's ordering him around, telling him what to do, what to learn, what to achieve?
You do aware that beside being a butler, he was an immature boy with no ability, right? You do realize that she tried to correct his personality as well as trainned him so he could have the power to protect others,
right?
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hayate...er/c182/6.html

What to learn? What to achieve? His bavery? His determination? His courage? His protectiveness? His Immortal body? His strength? His cooking skill?His cleanning? Are you sure you are reading HnG?
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hayate...er/c183/4.html


Quote:
The first time Hayate wanted to do something different than Athena, what happened then? Do you remember?

Proof for what? That they're lovers? That's fine with me. My point is that they're asymmetrical lovers. Everything is fine as long as he agrees to do what she wants. But when he doesn't...
Do you mean when she allowed him to exit the castle? Or do you mean when she followed his wishes to go ouside the castle?
If you were talking about their battle, you must realized that Athena realized Hayate would go be in hell if he follows his parents, right? And you must know that Hayate already admited Athena was correctt, right?

Well, atleast you did not say they were in a assymmetical relationship anymore.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2009-08-30 at 20:10.
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Old 2009-08-30, 19:57   Link #2299
Used Can
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No, she didn't. Not once. First, she simply flat-out rejected "end of discussion" (so much for equality), and in the end, Hayate eagerly rushed away when she only said "That's...". Not once did she agree.
Well, my bad, she didn't flat out say she agree, but the scene itself showed that she was okay with Hayate's idea.

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What "misunderstanding"? There was no such thing. A-tan refused to go because Hayate's parents sold her precious ring, and so she decided that not only SHE wouldn't leave, noooo... Hayate wouldn't leave either. "I won't let you go anymore". And "Forget everything about these parents" and "They're trash, they will only make you unhappy". You really want to reread c185.
Misunderstanding in the sense she didn't know what Hayate's idea (for handing that ring to his parents) was, nor did Hayate know why she was angry. Had Hayate been told what his parents did, chances are good he wouldn't have wanted to go back to them either. This is what I've meant by misunderstandings.

The fight was never about a disagreement. Hayate had no idea why Athena was angry, and then, after she said all those things about his parents, he told that thing to her, hurt her feelings, and now, both of them having hurt their feelings got into that fight.
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Old 2009-08-30, 20:11   Link #2300
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Misunderstanding in the sense she didn't know what Hayate's idea (for handing that ring to his parents) was, nor did Hayate know why she was angry. Had Hayate been told what his parents did, chances are good he wouldn't have wanted to go back to them either. This is what I've meant by misunderstandings.
I see what you're trying to say, but I honestly don't think so. Unlike Hayate, Athena could see Hayate's parents for what they were: Trash that would make him unhappy. She was much more clear-eyed than Hayate ever was. There was no misunderstanding, at least not from Athena's side.

The really important aspect: She was used to having the final say. It was up to HER to decide what was good for Hayate, and thus, good for them. She had no qualms to decide "I won't let you go anymore" without even consulting him. The sad irony is that she was actually right - but the fact remains that IT WAS HER DECISION AND SHE DIDN'T BOTHER TO GIVE HAYATE A SAY IN IT.

Quote:
The fight was never about a disagreement. Hayate had no idea why Athena was angry, and then, after she said all those things about his parents, he told that thing to her, hurt her feelings, and now, both of them having hurt their feelings got into that fight.
The fight broke out when Hayate continued to refuse Athena. She had decreed that he was to remain in the castle, but for once he didn't listen. This made her angry, angry enough to attack him physically, but he STILL didn't yield. She started to plead, but confused, he held his ground, and this plunged her into a deadly rage (c186).

Objectively, Athena was right. Hayate's parents WERE trash and caused him unhappiness. But she couldn't deal with Hayate's insistence to be stupid, defying her. And that is a shaky basis for a relationship.
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