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Old 2009-08-29, 18:09   Link #61
OkamiNoKaze
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In K-On's case, I suppose the advisor could fit, at least where Mio is concerned
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Old 2009-08-29, 19:15   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Precia Testarossa is a good example of a villain. She delights in inflicting pain on Fate, after Fate switches to the protagonist side.
Precia seemed to enjoy inflicting pain on Fate before the switch. Then again, she was insane.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-29, 19:25   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Precia seemed to enjoy inflicting pain on Fate before the switch. Then again, she was insane.
Insanity tends to help your resume for evil villain.

Spoiler for Nanoha, just in case:
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Old 2009-08-30, 02:50   Link #64
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The only thing that feels absurd to me about the whole issue is the "John Smith" thing. Honestly, there are many things wrong with the mentality of the whole issue. Why would she be so concerned about a guy that she knew for one day and treated him like crap the entire time. Not to mention, that the time-span was only 3 years and even in that period of time, she should be able to know who Kyon is by then.

I really think Triple_R has the right idea where Haruhi separates herself from humanity and humanity basically complies by not really caring about her. She does get her way and she does succeed, but the victories themselves are very empty. They only really please Haruhi and keep the espers from worrying. In fact, they are rather disheartening for the people involved like the baseball team or computer club.

Baltakatei is also right in the sense that she can't accept failure. It's hard to tell that if she's spoiled or if she sees others as being lowly to her that she's just so used to succeeding that she doesn't know how to experience failure and may over-react to it. (Which may be fine, but Koizumi and Mikuru do have that universe to worry about.)

In general, I think Haruhi may be more oblivious or unfocused than most people think because she doesn't think about many possibilities or what may lie ahead. You can really see this with Mikuru because of how often Haruhi gets jealous of her being close to Kyon. I don't think it occured to Haruhi, that because Mikuru-chan is seen as being one of the most attractive girls at the school, that Kyon also might find her attractive and get embarrassed when Mikuru is close.
Regarding the BLR... she cares about "John Smith" because he was the first person she met with a similar mindset.
She can't recognized Kyon because:
1) it was dark
2) it was three years ago (he shouldn't still be in HS, you forget that she does have some common sense)
3) she was probably more concerned about her doodle more than the guy doing it at the time.

Also, regarding her oblivious/unfocused self... keep in mind that she is only a first/second year high school girl. Yes she can bend reality to her will... but she's only around 16 years old.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
A lot of people accuse Haruhi of being a sociopath, and yes her lack of respect for norms, people, and just basically everything is quite disgusting at times. Though we do have to realize she is the ultimate spoiled child-- the universe spoils her, quite literally.

Because it bends to her will, she has never had to compromise with anyone. She wants to have fun, and she sincerely believes other people are enjoying it too despite their collective groans and whining. But since nobody would dare oppose her, she thinks it's all ok and that everyone is playing their roles. It eventually gets boring, because everything seems too easy.

Enter Kyon. He's the only one that doesn't act like a doormat to her, and actually provides oppoistion. She seems to genuinely want attention from him because of this. Plus you have to realize how the other 3 view her as...

The aliens view her as a key to evolution.
The espers view her as a god who would destroy the world out of boredom.
The Time Travelers see her as a roadblock.

Basically, nobody really sees her for herself. If she didn't have special abilities, then none of these factions would have given a damn about her. So it seems only natural she would be interested in the one that doesn't have an agenda.

And so, Haruhi is apretty damned interesting character. If only you know who you were.
My thoughts agree with you 100% here. Note, that Kyon's opposition is usually constructive and not just a means to impede Haruhi's actions... meaning, he actually gets her to question her own thought processes with well reasoned questioning.
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Old 2009-08-30, 03:34   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze View Post
Also anyone want to speculate on post Graduation/novel Haruhi? I see her taking the SOS with her and turning it into a Private Investigation firm. That or she'd join Japan's version of the FBI's X-File unit.
Haruhi/Kyon as a gender-swapped Mulder and Scully... that would be kind of funny.
Been there, done that.

It was actually pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
Hmm, really? Didn't know that. This is what I would call 'villian'(tough this word might be too 'evil'). Eh you don't have another word for 'antagonist' then? Is an important consept in fiction isn't it? Should I call her a 'antagonist in the classical sense'?
There is no "classical sense" in the definition of antagonist. There's only the "one who contends with or opposes another" definition, as Merriam-Webster so succinctly puts it, or the "hardly anyone knows how to create a complex story anymore so let's just dumb down the language further (ironically making it more difficult to tell complex stories in the process) and say that 'antagonist' means 'villain'" definition. The second one is wrong, by the way.

She can sometimes be the antagonist. Over the course of the series I'd dare say she is most often the antagonist. But not always. And this is a series with very few (if any) true "villains".

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I mentioned this over on the Koizumi thread, but I think it bears repeating here since it applies to Haruhi as well... Koizumi is really hurting her emotional maturing, I think, by always going out of his way to ensure that she never loses (as he did through his talks with Kyon during the baseball game and in Sagittarius III).

Honestly, I think that Haruhi would probably, over the long term, benefit from losing at a competition that she genuinely cared about.

Losing, every now and then, can build character. It can make a person more hardy, and more accepting of the idea that they can't always have their way.
One of the reasons why he's my least favorite character. Cartman put it best when he said, "Democrats piss me off."
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Old 2009-08-30, 08:12   Link #66
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He can't blame him too much, though. If her temper tantrum gets too bad, *poof* and the universe is gone. He's just picking what he thinks is the lesser of two evils.
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Old 2009-08-30, 15:43   Link #67
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Regarding Koizumi, it kind of makes Kyon more special, if you think about it. Haruhi dominates Mikuru anyway, Yuki is apathetic to the situation and will go along and Koizumi actually tries to statisfy Haruhi. And everyone else just ignores Haruhi when she's being a jerk to them.. So basically, Haruhi never had anyone telling her "you can't do that", which is why everything works out for her. That and her divine powers most likely help her at winning as well. Think about if everything would work just fine in your life. Of course the world is boring then! That's the entire reason for her melancholy. And then there's Kyon. Kyon sticks with her but still objects to things she does. It's like she wants Kyon to set boundaries for her. He's the only wall she has.

So you could say Koizumi is acting wrong here, in going along with whatever she thinks up, but think about it from his point of view. He was pretty much made to be the guy cleaning up Haruhi's mess. With his Esper powers. If he doesn't go along with what Haruhi says, it only get's worse for him. However, it's not like he doesn't want Haruhi to "grow up", as evidenced by his talks of appreciation to Kyon, regarding Kyon making Haruhi develop into a good direction. In hindsight, it's also good for him, but he probably can't change Haruhi like Kyon does.

I also really like Haruhi's and Kyon's relationship, because there are many, many themes playing a role in it.

Regarding Haruhi being a tsundere... Oh boy, that's very controversial, really. She's sometimes marketed as one, I think. And I know many people will immediately raise eyebrows when Haruhi and tsundere are mentioned in the same sentence. I know from experience many people on /a/ don't think she's a tsundere and will tell people so.

Personally, I don't think she is one. This is subjective, both because the definition of tsundere may vary from person to person and because people see her in a different light.
But I think that even if she has a side that is dere for Kyon, I don't really see her that tsun. She doesn't like to show that she has romantic feelings or that she's affected by Kyon in such a way, yes. But she never really goes out of her way to hurt Kyon in any way. As I said before, he's the only person she'll listen to and who can stop her.. If she were a tsundere, wouldn't she listen even less to what he has to say? I don't think so.
There's some embarassment in her relationship with Kyon, maybe because she regards it as a weakness. But it's not denial.
Lastly, I think there are many other character traits, so that even if she is tsundere for Kyon, it does not define her entire personality.
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Old 2009-08-30, 15:57   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post
Regarding Koizumi, it kind of makes Kyon more special, if you think about it.
Oh, I definitely get that. And, as such, story-wise/thematic-wise, it may be good that Koizumi is the way that he is. I just don't think that it's a good way to be; basically, yes, the story forces him to be that way, but that still doesn't let him off the hook entirely, imo.

I'm actually not convinced that Haruhi wouldn't listen to Koizumi or Yuki if they spoke up against her; I mean, I think that she'd give them as much heed as she does Kyon anyway. Actually, Haruhi seems to hold Koizumi in a slightly better light than the rest of the Brigade - he's officially the 2nd-in-Command after her, correct?

Perhaps Koizumi's only crime is underestimating his own ability to influence Haruhi. I don't think that she's attached to him as much as she is to Kyon, but I do think that she respects Koizumi a fair bit, and likes him as a friend.

I will say this in fairness to Koizumi, though; his entire organization seems to believe that constant appeasement is the only way to go when it comes to handling Haruhi. So, it's possible that he doesn't agree with that, but has to go along with the organization's wishes anyway.


Quote:

Personally, I don't think she is one. This is subjective, both because the definition of tsundere may vary from person to person and because people see her in a different light.
But I think that even if she has a side that is dere for Kyon, I don't really see her that tsun. She doesn't like to show that she has romantic feelings or that she's affected by Kyon in such a way, yes. But she never really goes out of her way to hurt Kyon in any way. As I said before, he's the only person she'll listen to and who can stop her.. If she were a tsundere, wouldn't she listen even less to what he has to say? I don't think so.
There's some embarassment in her relationship with Kyon, maybe because she regards it as a weakness. But it's not denial.
Lastly, I think there are many other character traits, so that even if she is tsundere for Kyon, it does not define her entire personality.
Great points. I agree.
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Old 2009-08-30, 16:34   Link #69
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Haruhi's relationships with the rest of the brigade are really something to ponder about.

Kyon: She obviously loves him in some way. But she plays Tsundere with him, of course. If she had a different personality, they might even be dating by now.

Mikuru: This is one to think about. Haruhi obviously thinks something of Mikuru... But other than that, nothing much to go on. If it wasn't for the whole "Haurhi is a jerk and she forces Mikuru into outfits" thing, and Haurhi was a bit nicer, they could be friends, considering Tsuruya is kinda like that.

Itsuki: He's second in command, she probably thinks good of him. Like Mikuru, not much to go from there. He's quite loyal to her, though, so she might trust him a bit.

Yuki: She's definitely the furthest from Yuki, so to speak. They never really talk, and there's points that Haruhi doesn't seem to know she's there. (And everyone else, for that matter )
Spoiler for Novel 9:
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Old 2009-08-30, 16:44   Link #70
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Haruhi seems to acknowledge Yuki in the area of sports (weird for the thin book reader to be considered the sports star). Yuki beats Haruhi at swimming and that run in Signs was probably faster than any world record holder.
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Old 2009-08-30, 16:46   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Volcanic View Post
Haruhi's relationships with the rest of the brigade are really something to ponder about.

Kyon: She obviously loves him in some way. But she plays Tsundere with him, of course. If she had a different personality, they might even be dating by now.

Mikuru: This is one to think about. Haruhi obviously thinks something of Mikuru... But other than that, nothing much to go on. If it wasn't for the whole "Haurhi is a jerk and she forces Mikuru into outfits" thing, and Haurhi was a bit nicer, they could be friends, considering Tsuruya is kinda like that.

Itsuki: He's second in command, she probably thinks good of him. Like Mikuru, not much to go from there. He's quite loyal to her, though, so she might trust him a bit.

Yuki: She's definitely the furthest from Yuki, so to speak. They never really talk, and there's points that Haruhi doesn't seem to know she's there. (And everyone else, for that matter )
Spoiler for Novel 9:
I agree here. I also have something(spoileriffc) to add about Yuki:
Spoiler for Volume 8:
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Old 2009-08-30, 16:48   Link #72
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I agree here. I also have something(spoileriffc) to add about Yuki:
Spoiler for Volume 8:
Quote:
Haruhi seems to acknowledge Yuki in the area of sports (weird for the thin book reader to be considered the sports star). Yuki beats Haruhi at swimming and that run in Signs was probably faster than any world record holder.
Thanks for reminding me guys,

Anyway, looking at this, Haruhi probably does care about Yuki quite a bit. Despite the fact that she just sits in the corner all day, Haruhi, who comes off as a jerk to all, does acknowledge her.
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Old 2009-08-30, 16:55   Link #73
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At a very basic level, at least, Haruhi cares about all of her Brigade members. They're her Brigade members; there's only four of them, and they're the four people she's come to rely upon the most in her life.

I firmly believe, for example, that if either of the SOS Brigade members were to, say, be diagnosed with cancer and have to go to the hospital for a few days, that Haruhi would be extremely supportive and hang out with that member almost every step of the way. While Haruhi is probably uniquely close to Kyon of the four, she's very loyal to all four, I think.

Haruhi is actually a very good friend in some ways. She's quite reliable.
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Old 2009-08-30, 17:42   Link #74
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I think that came through character development though. In the Melancholy arc, I got the impression she didn't think of them as that important, mostly because she was fine with discarding the whole Brigade for a more interesting world. (Except for Kyon).

Now she views them as real people and friends and she'll protect them, I'm just not sure if that was always the case.
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Old 2009-08-30, 18:13   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't know if I'd call her the pure antagonist for the show. The goal, after all, is not to defeat Haruhi, but rather to manage her.
I was thinking about that, in a way that she is kind of contradictory. She's not only the antagonist, but the protagonist as well. (More like, Co-Protagonist along with Kyon) And while you do have the threats of everyone else, Haruhi is the one who still has control over the fate of the world.

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Haruhi really has nobody to be a close personal friend with. Kyon shares her interests to a degree, but not her intensity. Tsuruya shares her intensity (just about), but not her interests. And Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki are just trying to manage and/or observe her. It's also a little bit dehumanizing the way that Kyon, Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki frequently view Haruhi. They want her to be happy not for her own sake, but for the world's.

Haruhi doesn't have anybody in her own universe much like her at all.

... There's some reason here to feel sympathy for her.
I really understand where you are coming from, but I think it's hard to feel sympathetic with Haruhi as a whole. Even when I believe there are moments to feel sympathetic for Haruhi, there's something to counter that thought process. Various examples come from when she's thanked by ENOZ or when she explains why she wants to find supernatural people or the times she feels lonely. She has flaws, but these flaws that she has are mostly in her head which is why it's hard to bond with her.

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Regarding the BLR... she cares about "John Smith" because he was the first person she met with a similar mindset.
She can't recognized Kyon because:
1) it was dark
2) it was three years ago (he shouldn't still be in HS, you forget that she does have some common sense)
3) she was probably more concerned about her doodle more than the guy doing it at the time.

Also, regarding her oblivious/unfocused self... keep in mind that she is only a first/second year high school girl. Yes she can bend reality to her will... but she's only around 16 years old.
I can see the common sense where John Smith would grow up and possibly move, but I'm sure that Haruhi could remember important things like his face or his voice. Especially since she's been hanging out with Kyon for a whole year.

And while you say that oblivious/unfocused thing, just because she's a teenager doesn't really give her all that much of an excuse. I don't mean to sound cliche, but she really doesn't realize what she is capable of because it feels like she belittles herself as a "normal" person. Or she doesn't expect what kind of things the "normal" people can do. The jealousy with Mikuru is a perfect example because while she still pushes Kyon around, she expects him to stay loyal and follow what she wants and not show Mikuru any unnecessary attention.

I wanna say that I agree with most people in the sense that the rest of the SOS Brigade babies over Haruhi since Kyon is always the one who has to deliver advice. She doesn't listen to Mikuru, Yuki doesn't do anything and Koizumi keeps his role as yes-man, so Haruhi doesn't have a chance to learn on her own.

In fact, this makes me wonder what things would be like if Tsuruya were apart of the Brigade, because it feels like she's the closest one on Haruhi's wavelength that she could consider a real friend.
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Old 2009-08-30, 18:41   Link #76
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I can see the common sense where John Smith would grow up and possibly move, but I'm sure that Haruhi could remember important things like his face or his voice. Especially since she's been hanging out with Kyon for a whole year.
He saw the guy for only one day. It was dark enough to hide his face, and is really hard remember, for sure, anything after 3 years. And mor time she spend with Kyon, less likely is to relate he to John, as she get used to his voice/face as his, not someone else. Also, she did reconised Kyon to a degree. "Have we met before?". She did give a good look to him this time probably reconizing his face as similar to John's.
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Old 2009-08-30, 21:08   Link #77
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I can see the common sense where John Smith would grow up and possibly move, but I'm sure that Haruhi could remember important things like his face or his voice. Especially since she's been hanging out with Kyon for a whole year.

And while you say that oblivious/unfocused thing, just because she's a teenager doesn't really give her all that much of an excuse. I don't mean to sound cliche, but she really doesn't realize what she is capable of because it feels like she belittles herself as a "normal" person. Or she doesn't expect what kind of things the "normal" people can do. The jealousy with Mikuru is a perfect example because while she still pushes Kyon around, she expects him to stay loyal and follow what she wants and not show Mikuru any unnecessary attention.
Regarding "John Smith", she actually does carry some memory of his appearance. Have you forgotten the ("Have I met you some where before?") question she shot at Kyon during the Melancholy arc? But she most likely wrote it off as ridiculous because of that common sense... still, deep down, somewhere in the back of her mind... that image is still there.

Moving on... I don't know too many teenagers (around 16) who are that focused. It usually isn't until college that most young adults get some idea of that special something that they want in life... and even then, many still don't find exactly what "that" is and just settle for whatever gets them by in life. Haruhi doesn't need to settle for anything... she has a mountain of things to try (which she'll succeed at mind you...) and no time to worry.
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Old 2009-08-30, 23:09   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post

I really understand where you are coming from, but I think it's hard to feel sympathetic with Haruhi as a whole. Even when I believe there are moments to feel sympathetic for Haruhi, there's something to counter that thought process. Various examples come from when she's thanked by ENOZ or when she explains why she wants to find supernatural people or the times she feels lonely. She has flaws, but these flaws that she has are mostly in her head which is why it's hard to bond with her.
Haruhi's chief flaw is simply lack of empathy for others. No, on second thought, it's a bit deeper than even that... she flat out doesn't understand most other people, period. She doesn't get why people are interested in "normal" or "ordinary" past times at all.

I think I see your point; your point being that if Haruhi simply met other people where they already are and shared time with them at their past times, then she'd be quite popular and have loads of friends. Yes, with her combination of athleticism, attractive appearance, energy, intelligence, personal charisma, and sheer talent, she definitely would.

At some level, I can understand a person looking at Haruhi, with all the strengths to her character that collectively most people would dream to have, and doing a Kyon facepalm over 'Why doesn't she just take advantage of these personal strengths more?'

On the other hand, though, I just find it hard to hold a person's choice of interests against him or her. In a fitting sort of way, simply being an anime fan makes it easier for me to relate to Haruhi. My interests aren't terribly common for people my age who live where I do either, and this can make it harder for me to socialize with other people in the real world too.
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Old 2009-08-31, 01:12   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Haruhi's chief flaw is simply lack of empathy for others. No, on second thought, it's a bit deeper than even that... she flat out doesn't understand most other people, period. She doesn't get why people are interested in "normal" or "ordinary" past times at all.
I think that also Haruhi could be tagged as a "loner" with her attitude and "gifts" that sets her apart from others. The Loners are Freaks trope kinda fits her IMHO.

And with the experiences of the SOS Brigade she shares in, she gradually loses those loner tendencies (we hope!).
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Old 2009-08-31, 04:01   Link #80
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Okay, here's a question or you guys. There's no wrong answer, but your answer will likely show your opinion about Haruhi's character. Here it is:

What do you think would be the first thing Haruhi would do if she found out about her powers?
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