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View Poll Results: Suzumiya Haruhi (2009) - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 110 53.14%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 57 27.54%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 15 7.25%
7 out of 10 : Good 18 8.70%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.93%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.48%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 0.97%
Voters: 207. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-04, 07:03   Link #121
X10A_Freedom
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If chopping off an arm to save one life is inexpensive (from another series), what about sacrifising one life (Haruhi) to save 6 billion lives? (the world)

Totally disgusting episode imo. It was fairly well-done on the production side but Haruhi had stopped being funny by the third episode of the movie arc, and has become beyond disgusting.

My emotions dictate I should give a 1/10 but I shall abstain.
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Old 2009-09-04, 07:10   Link #122
Jonbob0008
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Definitely the best episode of the new ones, and I doubt next week's episode will top it, considering what we know will happen...

Spoiler for next week:


I'll definitely be watching this episode many times over the course of the week.
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Old 2009-09-04, 07:15   Link #123
ac195
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Originally Posted by X10A_Freedom View Post
If chopping off an arm to save one life is inexpensive (from another series), what about sacrifising one life (Haruhi) to save 6 billion lives? (the world)

Totally disgusting episode imo. It was fairly well-done on the production side but Haruhi had stopped being funny by the third episode of the movie arc, and has become beyond disgusting.

My emotions dictate I should give a 1/10 but I shall abstain.
The difference??? The possibility of the outcome. Kill the possible god of the world or sacrifice a yuri girl's fugly hairy arm... HMMM, I wonder which outcome would be more disastrous...

Yeah, Bakemonogatari is great. But if you think it's gonna do what Haruhi did in 2006 then you're kidding yourself. SEED is terrible by the way... talk about a Sunrise ripping itself off...ROFLZ

Obvious troll is obvious.
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Old 2009-09-04, 07:18   Link #124
Roger Rambo
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Looking at the actual scene in question is a bit...disappointing.

Haruhi isn't really even hitting Mikuru. She's bopping her on the head with a card board speaker. And not even allot. And everyone acts like it's dramatic? And Mikuru isn't really reacting. I mean, this just doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as the novels. If it wasn't for the forcibly dramatic music we'd probably not assume that we'd touched on some moral event horizon.

Also, who the hell try's to punch anyone like that? It looks like he was about to do some kind of hammer strike...but he was to far away for that to work.

Apparently all of Kyon's threats of "I'll kick your ass!" we're pretty much hollow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever View Post
Got a feeling koizumi is actually using his powers to restrain kyon.
Koizumi has no powers in the normal world.

And frankly that scene probably would have worked better if Koizumi had put more visible effort into restraining Kyon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by X10A_Freedom View Post
If chopping off an arm to save one life is inexpensive (from another series), what about sacrifising one life (Haruhi) to save 6 billion lives? (the world)
How do you know this will save the world? Nobody understands anything about how Haruhi powers actually work, including the hyper advanced non corporeal aliens.

I'm gonna call back on my analogy of primitive cavemen dealing with a nuclear reactor with a somewhat faulty safety mechanism causing it to occasionally spew radiation by taking a bunch of large rocks and bashing the safety mechanisms thinking this will make everything better.

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Old 2009-09-04, 07:48   Link #125
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Just watched this episode in sub format. I'm going to reply to Kaioshin first

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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Alright that was halfway decent so it was time well spent. The first half wasn't much to write home admittedly with it's continued behind the scenes style look at the episode 00 content that we've already seen in it's finished status and honestly done much more interestingly since it was done in a clever point of view style in the first season rather than just simply what we have here with the Sighs' adaptation. I mean I have to laugh a little when arguably the most pressing issue being portrayed is whether Mikuru is going to take a dunk in the water or not (heavens!)........yeah this seasons been pretty lighthearted and not as balanced as the first one when it comes to comedy and drama.
I agree with that criticism overall (i.e. as it pertains to this year of new Haruhi episodes overall), but I don't think that's the case with this particular episode. This latest episode really straddles the line between real drama and melodrama for me, but one thing I wouldn't call it is lighthearted. That's some of the least lighthearted background music that I've ever heard.

I'm divided on the water-throwing scene. On the one hand... yeah, it really isn't that big of a deal; unpleasant, sure, but Haruhi's right in that this is the kind of sacrifice that any serious actor should be willing to make... although, in fairness to Mikuru, she never signed up with the SOS Brigade to be an actress.

Also, the way that Mikuru's facial expressions were handled during the tossing-into-water scene, combined with the downright haunting background music... I actually felt very sorry for the girl. This is the first time Haruhi's treatment of Mikuru has truly, honestly made me feel sorry for Mikuru. It's probably because Mikuru wasn't whining, but rather was petrified. Outright petrified. The palpable sense of great fear and dread on Mikuru's part really came through in this scene... and I simply have to pity the girl.

And I have to admit that Mikuru's resolve through out this episode impressed me.

So... at face value, this scene was way too melodramatic. But from Kyon and Mikuru's perspective... I can kind of see the serious drama here. For once, Mikuru didn't strike me as just being a whiner; you really could tell how scared she was of being thrown in the water. Now I'm inclined to think that the poor girl simply has some serious psychological issues with phobias. She needs to see a counselor.


Quote:
Yuki was Yuki (technobabble), Tsuruya was Tsuruya (Ahahahahahahaha *points*), everyone was as they normally are and it's honestly getting a bit old, but what can I say, Haruhi as a franchise has never been big on character and scenario advancement and this season has been like a microcosm of that aspect of it.
While I agree with you on Yuki and Tsuruya, I felt that this episode did a fair bit to change how one sees Haruhi, Kyon, and Mikuru.

And... I also have a new respect for Koizumi with this episode. He's really trying his best to handle a difficult situation here. For once, I got a real sense of heroism from him. I don't know if I agree with his decision to block Kyon's attack on Haruhi... if I was him I'd be very tempted to let Kyon get one punch off and then break it up... but his dialogue really shows a man deeply conflicted and wanting to do what's right.

This episode makes Koizumi seem a fair bit less shady to me. He clearly fancies himself a defender of the Earth, and takes that role seriously. He obviously has real disagreements with Haruhi, but is swallowing some bitter pills to keep her appeased. I get the feeling that Koizumi would like to knock some sense into Haruhi as well, but he's holding back for the greater good, and is surprised that the usually calm Kyon is failing to do the same.


Quote:

That said the second half didn't start terribly great with me getting ready to roll my eyes at what I thought was going to be another lacklustre Kyoani standard attempt to bring on the pathos (Which they did a little at first since Haruhi lightly tapping Mikuru's head and Kyon getting all dramatic had me laughing more than I thought I would given that it sounded more like outright bullying in the novel and hence a lot more serious and dramatic), but when Kyon went to go deck Haruhi I have to appreciate how the scene was handled from then on with Haruhi looking so betrayed and almost like she was going to cry before putting on her strong front again.
Agreed.

Quote:
Makes me think that Kyoani's staff are slowly remembering again how to do decent drama and how to use the subtle expression of a character to convey more than the most overboard of animation sequences and shouting could ever convey.
I strongly agree here too.


Quote:

So decent episode that is a bit above average for what we've seen this season.....now I'm off to play some Gihren's Greed.
Where can you get Gihren's Greed, by the way? I'd love to play the game - the promos I've seen of it are awesome!


A couple more observations I'll make here...

I really liked how Kyon got a taste of his own snark medicine with what Taniguchi was saying to him about the movie. It also helps how Taniguchi's comment was understandable as he was peeved over how Haruhi so cavalierly dismissed him and Kunikida earlier on in the episode. Kyon's realization of how Taniguchi's snark really rubs him the wrong way is a reflection of how Kyon's snark probably rubs Haruhi the wrong way, was brilliant I felt. It was nice to see Kyon be truly self-reflective here, and try to empathize a bit with Haruhi.

I'm glad that Kyon didn't outright apologize - quite frankly, Haruhi didn't deserve one. Haruhi should be apologizing to Mikuru, if anything. Kyon's uplifting statement to Haruhi near the end of the episode was a good way for him to go, I felt; he uplifts Haruhi with out conceding the principle of the thing, and Kyon's right on the principle of the thing. That being said, I'd be really tempted to let Haruhi spend one more day stewing in her depression if I was Kyon. Haruhi really needs to learn some things.

I actually felt that this episode ending wasn't overly abrupt - the mention of getting a cat serves as a nice
cliff-hanger moment, imo.

However, all of the above stated... Haruhi really crossed the line in this episode. Even I, one of her more passionate defenders, can't defend her here. Her treatment of Mikuru in Tsuruya's house is just beyond the pale, and reflects a mind that, frankly, is just out of it.

Totally out of it.

It's not even that Haruhi is being cruel; it's that she doesn't even realize that she's being cruel. She doesn't even seem to view other people as human beings with some basic human rights - no, scratch that, it's deeper than that. Haruhi doesn't even understand why Kyon is getting upset. Even if Haruhi doesn't view other people as human beings with some basic human rights, she should still be cognizant of the fact that most people do... including Kyon.

As a whole, I think that Sigh (the novel) took Haruhi too far. It took her over the edge, I think. While it was nice to see an intense Kyon vs Haruhi bit, the lead-up to it just stretched Haruhi's character beyond the breaking point for me. I don't know - I just would have preferred it if Haruhi's actions were cold (cold enough to legitimately get a rise out of Kyon) but at least understandable. How can Haruhi think the way that she does in this episode? It actually makes her look breathtakingly ignorant and/or stupid, frankly. How Haruhi can be so good at school, and yet be this ignorant of what most people would call "common sense", is beyond me.

For this reason, I can't give this episode a 10. I give it a 9. In fairness, it's not KyoAni's fault - the novel itself is at fault here, imo; there's nothing KyoAni could do about it, short of major alteration. Still, it means that this episode presents Haruhi's character in a way that detracts a great deal from my appreciation of it.

Other than that, an excellent episode.
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Old 2009-09-04, 07:53   Link #126
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I'm gonna call back on my analogy of primitive cavemen dealing with a nuclear reactor with a somewhat faulty safety mechanism causing it to occasionally spew radiation by taking a bunch of large rocks and bashing the safety mechanisms thinking this will make everything better.
Yep, pretty much.

No one knows what would happen if someone as powerful as Haruhi dies. We don't know if the universe could survive the effects.

The novels might go into that.
Spoiler for novel:
But we will see.
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Old 2009-09-04, 08:15   Link #127
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Is only LQ version out, I mean subbed?
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Old 2009-09-04, 09:00   Link #128
X10A_Freedom
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm glad that Kyon didn't outright apologize - quite frankly, Haruhi didn't deserve one. Haruhi should be apologizing to Mikuru, if anything. Kyon's uplifting statement to Haruhi near the end of the episode was a good way for him to go, I felt; he uplifts Haruhi with out conceding the principle of the thing, and Kyon's right on the principle of the thing. That being said, I'd be really tempted to let Haruhi spend one more day stewing in her depression if I was Kyon. Haruhi really needs to learn some things.

I actually felt that this episode ending wasn't overly abrupt - the mention of getting a cat serves as a nice
cliff-hanger moment, imo.

However, all of the above stated... Haruhi really crossed the line in this episode. Even I, one of her more passionate defenders, can't defend her here. Her treatment of Mikuru in Tsuruya's house is just beyond the pale, and reflects a mind that, frankly, is just out of it.

Totally out of it.

It's not even that Haruhi is being cruel; it's that she doesn't even realize that she's being cruel. She doesn't even seem to view other people as human beings with some basic human rights - no, scratch that, it's deeper than that. Haruhi doesn't even understand why Kyon is getting upset. Even if Haruhi doesn't view other people as human beings with some basic human rights, she should still be cognizant of the fact that most people do... including Kyon.

As a whole, I think that Sigh (the novel) took Haruhi too far. It took her over the edge, I think. While it was nice to see an intense Kyon vs Haruhi bit, the lead-up to it just stretched Haruhi's character beyond the breaking point for me. I don't know - I just would have preferred it if Haruhi's actions were cold (cold enough to legitimately get a rise out of Kyon) but at least understandable. How can Haruhi think the way that she does in this episode? It actually makes her look breathtakingly ignorant and/or stupid, frankly. How Haruhi can be so good at school, and yet be this ignorant of what most people would call "common sense", is beyond me.

For this reason, I can't give this episode a 10. I give it a 9. In fairness, it's not KyoAni's fault - the novel itself is at fault here, imo; there's nothing KyoAni could do about it, short of major alteration. Still, it means that this episode presents Haruhi's character in a way that detracts a great deal from my appreciation of it.

Other than that, an excellent episode.
Exactly how I feel.

As for the killing her off comment of mine, if knocking sense into her is prohibited then what else is there? If she is such a dangerous object to be killed, what happens if something ordinary happens, like getting run over by a car? We also see Koizumi theorising that someone gave Haruhi those powers for some reason, meaning Haruhi isn't the source of the power itself - she's just a tool.
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Old 2009-09-04, 09:06   Link #129
phizzy
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Aww, when I saw Haruhi holding her hair in a ponytail it made me smile. :3

This episode was better than Endless Eight.
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Old 2009-09-04, 09:10   Link #130
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this arc is tedious...
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Old 2009-09-04, 09:12   Link #131
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So... at face value, this scene was way too melodramatic. But from Kyon and Mikuru's perspective... I can kind of see the serious drama here. For once, Mikuru didn't strike me as just being a whiner; you really could tell how scared she was of being thrown in the water. Now I'm inclined to think that the poor girl simply has some serious psychological issues with phobias. She needs to see a counselor.
Hu, that's ridiculous. Nearly everybody would refuse flatly (and angrily) at the idea of being thrown in dirty water in autumn just so some spoiled brat would have fun.

We may find many of Haruhi's anthics to be fun because it's an anime and we don't have to deal with her in reality, but when judging the reactions of the characters in the show, we should try to imagine ourselves in their place.
Saying someone who is afraid to be thrown into dirty water has psychological problems... Hu...
It's not the one who doesn't want to be thrown in water who has problem in the head ; it's the one who want to throw others in.
Quote:
I really liked how Kyon got a taste of his own snark medicine with what Taniguchi was saying to him about the movie. It also helps how Taniguchi's comment was understandable as he was peeved over how Haruhi so cavalierly dismissed him and Kunikida earlier on in the episode. Kyon's realization of how Taniguchi's snark really rubs him the wrong way is a reflection of how Kyon's snark probably rubs Haruhi the wrong way, was brilliant I felt. It was nice to see Kyon be truly self-reflective here, and try to empathize a bit with Haruhi.
Hu, actually, it's, again, Haruhi who has trouble with empathy, not Kyon.
Kyon had troubles to understand HIMSELF, not to understand HARUHI. What I understood is that the snark remarks irritated him because he realized that he actually liked Haruhi and was bored without her.
Quote:
That being said, I'd be really tempted to let Haruhi spend one more day stewing in her depression if I was Kyon. Haruhi really needs to learn some things.
Yes, yes, yes, OHHHHH YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES...
She really got it off FAAAAAR too easily. But well, it's a bit the very concept of the serie, so...
Quote:
It's not even that Haruhi is being cruel; it's that she doesn't even realize that she's being cruel. She doesn't even seem to view other people as human beings with some basic human rights - no, scratch that, it's deeper than that. Haruhi doesn't even understand why Kyon is getting upset. Even if Haruhi doesn't view other people as human beings with some basic human rights, she should still be cognizant of the fact that most people do... including Kyon.
That's exactly what have been my point and why I called her a monster in past threads ^^
Quote:
As a whole, I think that Sigh (the novel) took Haruhi too far. It took her over the edge, I think. While it was nice to see an intense Kyon vs Haruhi bit, the lead-up to it just stretched Haruhi's character beyond the breaking point for me.
Actually, Haruhi character hasn't been stretched. It simply has been true to herself. She IS like that - we could see it in the first season - it's just that we are seeing her a bit more in day-to-day life and not only the "fun parts".
Someone as hideously self-centered as she is, and who disregards others as only tools for her amusement, would be exactly like in Sigh.
Quote:
I don't know - I just would have preferred it if Haruhi's actions were cold (cold enough to legitimately get a rise out of Kyon) but at least understandable. How can Haruhi think the way that she does in this episode? It actually makes her look breathtakingly ignorant and/or stupid, frankly. How Haruhi can be so good at school, and yet be this ignorant of what most people would call "common sense", is beyond me.
It's called "sociopathy"
And though it's not quite like how it happens IRL, it's actually a bit this principle.
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Old 2009-09-04, 09:23   Link #132
Takamura Mamoru
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+ Good art
+ Very good voice acting on Kyon's and Haruhi's side
+ Hilarious
+ Kyon's monologue while sitting with Taniguchi was excellent.

- They could have made Haruhi's actions look more jerkassy

She didn't really hit Mikuru hard in the anime. Though it's possible they tried to tone down her cruelty.

Very good episode though. 9/10
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Old 2009-09-04, 09:58   Link #133
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The quarrel between Haruhi and Kyon in this episode is gonna be important in the future. It eventually made haruhi realise the error of her ways and eventually become more open to Kyon's comments and suggestions.

In reality, friends and lovers will inevitably quarrel over something, no matter how trivia it is. Haruhi never made any friends prior to SOS dan and probably no one had stand up to her before, thus when Kyon opposed her, she was shocked and pissed. It wasn't wrong for Kyon to act the way he did, but violence won't solve the issue with Haruhi, which was why Koizumi knew this better and prevented Kyon's strike.
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Old 2009-09-04, 10:02   Link #134
Sackett
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The toning down of the scene was a good move. Novels and anime are different in impact on the audience. They toned it down just enough to keep Haruhi this side of the Moral Event Horizon- while still showing that Haruhi is seriously messed up in the head.

Mikuru is your toy? Well it's pretty obvious she thought it, what with Haruhi treating Mikuru like her personal life size dress up doll- but actually saying it?

It means Kyon's reaction seemed a bit over board, but he has enough built up goodness that the audience can forgive him losing it for once.

One thing I think some people have missed is that Kyon's freak out is first driven by rage over the treatment of Mikuru- but then after thinking about it he still wants to hit Haruhi- but because he's worried about Haruhi!

Everyone spoils her and it's making her a bad person, and Kyon wants Haruhi to be a good person.

I thought it was a very clever way to slip in some clues of how much Kyon cares for Haruhi- even if she does drive him crazy.

My favorite lines though came form the Kyon Kozumi interaction- particularly at the end. I couldn't help but imagine it to myself- only with more HOTBLOODEDness on the part of Kozumi:

Kozumi: "Couldn't you have said it better!!!"

Kyon: "I'm sorry"

Kozumi: "You've made her even more powerful!!!" (Over 9000!!!!)

Kyon: "I'm sorry"

And earlier Kozumi: "We. Are. The Defenders! OF THE WORLD!!!"

It felt like a bit of a role reversal for Kozumi and Kyon

Kozumi: "Forgive me. I was talking out of character."

Yes. Yes you were.
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Old 2009-09-04, 10:03   Link #135
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I liked the part when Kyon opens the door, Haruhi was about to do a ponytail and then she changes her mood when he comes in. Adorable.
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Old 2009-09-04, 10:10   Link #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X10A_Freedom View Post
Exactly how I feel.

As for the killing her off comment of mine, if knocking sense into her is prohibited then what else is there? If she is such a dangerous object to be killed, what happens if something ordinary happens, like getting run over by a car? We also see Koizumi theorising that someone gave Haruhi those powers for some reason, meaning Haruhi isn't the source of the power itself - she's just a tool.
Haruhi's a tricky case. I can see why Koizumi does what he does.

She has done/said some despicable things, yes, but... I don't think that she deserves to die. The problem is, of course, that it's intrinsically wrong to just go along with her worse moments of mistreating others.

... Maybe the best thing to do would be for Itsuki, Kyon, Mikuru, and Yuki to all just walk out on Haruhi, and say "We don't want to be part of the SOS Brigade any more until you clean up your act. Cleaning up your act means agreeing to treat Mikuru better, and stop treating us like subjects to do your bidding with out ever considering what we have to say."

Anybody here play Tales of the Abyss? If so...

Spoiler for Tales of the Abyss:


Well, if the SOS Brigade where to do something like the above towards Haruhi (but maybe a touch less harsh), maybe that would get through to her.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Hu, that's ridiculous. Nearly everybody would refuse flatly (and angrily) at the idea of being thrown in dirty water in autumn just so some spoiled brat would have fun.

We may find many of Haruhi's anthics to be fun because it's an anime and we don't have to deal with her in reality, but when judging the reactions of the characters in the show, we should try to imagine ourselves in their place.
Saying someone who is afraid to be thrown into dirty water has psychological problems... Hu...
It's not the one who doesn't want to be thrown in water who has problem in the head ; it's the one who want to throw others in.

Hu, actually, it's, again, Haruhi who has trouble with empathy, not Kyon.
Kyon had troubles to understand HIMSELF, not to understand HARUHI. What I understood is that the snark remarks irritated him because he realized that he actually liked Haruhi and was bored without her.

Yes, yes, yes, OHHHHH YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES...
She really got it off FAAAAAR too easily. But well, it's a bit the very concept of the serie, so...

That's exactly what have been my point and why I called her a monster in past threads ^^

Actually, Haruhi character hasn't been stretched. It simply has been true to herself. She IS like that - we could see it in the first season - it's just that we are seeing her a bit more in day-to-day life and not only the "fun parts".
Someone as hideously self-centered as she is, and who disregards others as only tools for her amusement, would be exactly like in Sigh.

It's called "sociopathy"
And though it's not quite like how it happens IRL, it's actually a bit this principle.
Maybe you're right, Akka. This episode is really making me reconsider Haruhi.

I want to like her character a lot, since she can be so dynamic and entertaining and fun, and her character design is gorgeous, but... maybe I've gone too easy on her in the past.

... I've always been a sucker for a pretty face.
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Old 2009-09-04, 10:15   Link #137
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For who thinks Haruhi is a bitch(they are probably right, for now). Remember both Live A Live and Day of Sagitarius happens after this episode.

This is why she is not a 'monster'. She lear quit quickly to be a better person just after that.
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Old 2009-09-04, 10:21   Link #138
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Quote:
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For who thinks Haruhi is a bitch(they are probably right, for now). Remember both Live A Live and Day of Sagitarius happens after this episode.

This is why she is not a 'monster'. She lear quit quickly to be a better person just after that.
... In Day of Sagittarius, she throws a double-footed jump kick right into the temple (i.e. most sensitive part of the head) of the Computer Club President.

Then she goes on to put the poor sap and his club through yet another humiliation, all while shouting "Unleash the fires of hell on them!".

You could be right about Live a Live (I'd have to rewatch it, as I've forgotten a lot from it), but in Day of Sagittarius, Haruhi is downright villainous.
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Old 2009-09-04, 10:26   Link #139
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
... In Day of Sagittarius, she throws a double-footed jump kick right into the temple (i.e. most sensitive part of the head) of the Computer Club President.

Then she goes on to put the poor sap and his club through yet another humiliation, all while shouting "Unleash the fires of hell on them!".

You could be right about Live a Live (I'd have to rewatch it, as I've forgotten a lot from it), but in Day of Sagittarius, Haruhi is downright villainous.
But she did thought about Yuki's feelings in the end of this episode. She did allow Yuki goes to the computer club just after Yuki say she wants to. Quite better then smashing people head without thinking what the feel...

(I knew I would have to explain this episode...)

PP:
Also, the only villainous thing she did that episode was the kick. The humiliation of the computer club was their faut, not her (and they did cheat). They were right by wanting a ravange, but they really shouldn't need to cheat to won against some amateours(they did create the game, come on)
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Old 2009-09-04, 10:28   Link #140
Akka
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
It means Kyon's reaction seemed a bit over board, but he has enough built up goodness that the audience can forgive him losing it for once.
I fail to see where Kyon has been overboard. A punch is quite tame compared to bullying and abusing people like Haruhi has done.
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