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View Poll Results: Spice and Wolf II - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 17 29.82%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 26.32%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 18 31.58%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 10.53%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.75%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-04, 12:30   Link #41
AKnightWhoSaysNi!
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Horo is just too smart for poor Lawrence. Loved how she managed to get him to carry all the books no problem... As for "how many"... she never did give a number!

And, I guess the end was supposed to be cliffhanger-ey but Lawrence should have learned that lesson by now. He's probably just going to wind up ticking Abe off and bring the church down on himself or something.
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:14   Link #42
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
Thanks for the insights, don't worry about stating your opinions (I clearly don't)

Based on your feedback and my own opinions, their "sweet and salty water" dialog seems like he's either:
- warning her that he could get used to treating her like that
- warning her that that he might not be able to resist making a move on her
- letting her know that he's worried his skills are dulling while he's with her
Based on that, you are probably right that she would think he's trying to tell her that she's been "too nice to him". Wish I could read the novels to figure out

I take it you meant that Lawrence knew he wasn't going to get any thanks from Horo, so rather than fighting he just admits it outright? Something like "even though I'm in no position to ask for it, I still get frustrated when I don't get any thanks".
For sweet and salty water, I feel Lawrence is more like setting up his guard against her. In previous episodes, she usually said this in order to tease/scold him (e.g. "I'm so happy.......then you're cute " or "You acted once like a knight.....and you should treat me well". Well maybe more but I don't remember that much.). Being accustomed to this, it's naturally for Lawrence to interpret this as adults' play in teasing each other little. So he said in ways he wouldn't get being fooled. But this time Horo really mean it and say something he didn't expect which left him speechless

About the latter ones, I think he didn't want to get frustrated from getting no thanks but little insult about man getting overexcited when being flattered because it is childish's attitude (which can be foolish for matured man wannabe).

That's what I interpreted from my observation through anime show and novel (volume 3-4 and especially "Wolf and Amber Melancholy" chapter which can give you insight of about Lawrence in Horo's point of view).
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:49   Link #43
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That's what I interpreted from my observation through anime show and novel (volume 3-4 and especially "Wolf and Amber Melancholy" chapter which can give you insight of about Lawrence in Horo's point of view).
Yeah, I read that chapter first (I couldn't help myself). To be honest, if Horo's retained that perspective this long then it can only make life harder for both of them. Lawrence would have a hell of a time figuring out where the games end and the reality begins, and for that reason I think you are right. He seems to finally be figuring out when she's being serious, but it's still obviously not easy for him.

Worse, I doubt that Horo can tell when Lawrence is being serious. From his perspective, it's been mostly games, so that's probably how he thinks she wants him to communicate with her. I do get the impression that he's come to realize that's not true, and in this episode it felt like he wasn't sure when to play and when to be serious (nor when she was playing/being serious). Communications breakdowns can be painful to watch
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:57   Link #44
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The good thing of this show is they can enjoy theirselves without need to realize whether it's game or serious.

P.S. I think this ep could be my fav ones in this season because it shows significant result of their development. My fav in previous season is first hug of loneliness. So touchy
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Old 2009-09-04, 16:49   Link #45
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I view the sweet and salty water as a reference to their relationship. It is so sweet that fear of loosing it grow stronger the sweeter it gets thus making it saltier at the same time.
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Old 2009-09-05, 12:43   Link #46
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I like that they put in that she's not a virgin. Too often Japanese authors are afraid that if their female lead love interest isn't "Pure" the boys watching it will riot, which is bullshit. The banter between them was another knockout too but it's to be expected at this point. I actually expected her to flirt with Abe to get even with Lawrence but that didn't happen.
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Old 2009-09-05, 16:04   Link #47
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Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
I like that they put in that she's not a virgin. Too often Japanese authors are afraid that if their female lead love interest isn't "Pure" the boys watching it will riot, which is bullshit. The banter between them was another knockout too but it's to be expected at this point. I actually expected her to flirt with Abe to get even with Lawrence but that didn't happen.
Well, I never thought Horo was a virgin given her lifespan but I never thought they would mention it that way. So when Lawrence asked how many she had, does that mean how many she had slept with or did I misunderstood something?
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Old 2009-09-05, 16:16   Link #48
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Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
I like that they put in that she's not a virgin.
I wonder where you got any info of her past sexual intercourses to make such statement ;]
She may have been involved in some relationships although it doesn't imply mating, ey?

On the relationship note, it might be Lawrence is actually first one to reach that level of intimacy with Horo.
Horo may have lived for hundreds of years, but her own words imply it was for the most part in the forests of Yoitsu and wheat fields of Pasroe. She did travel south, to find friends as she faintly admits, until she has met the boy she made promise with. She has never mentioned anyone else of greater note - and I find it terribly unlikely that she would keep quiet if she has ever gotten into relationship with someone of even lesser caliber than Lawerence's. She kept the promise with this one boy for hundreds of years and it's supposedly biggest chapter of her life, and promised Lawrence to forever tell tales of his ventures - surely other close companions would get a mention.

While she's terribly playful, she winds up unusualy moved whenever Lawrence is protective, affectionate and caring toward her. Be it kind word, hug or desperate last stand on wobbling legs. Horo herself says Lawrence made her experience some of those for the first time. The counting in 9th episode was a bluff, judging by the surprised and somewhat lost expression she made after Lawrence seriously asked for that poisoned chalice of answer.

Basing on novels, I believe her life with Lawrence is by far most entertaining and warmth-filled. Yet, apart from excessive teasing, we can't see Horo making any serious, sexual moves on Lawrence. Even though she's supposedly dying for some warmth ;]
Also we ought to consider she's tad too prideful and sensitive to offer herself to just anyone - if Lawrence ain't getting it, doubt anyone had! Unless our Sage Wolf made some painful mistakes in the past.. ;]

~D~

EDIT: A small edit to express that I find the animation level in this episode regretfully low :<

Last edited by DreXav; 2009-09-07 at 02:30.
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Old 2009-09-05, 16:44   Link #49
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I'm not desperate to have her a virgin or anything, but I don't think she was counting the people she's slept with either. Lawrence hasn't had sex with her, and yet he's "dyed in her color". So that's not really about intercourse. I think it just means the people dear to her. Right now, she's the single most important person in Lawrence's life, so he's completely dyed. But she's journeying back to find her pack. And then, there was that boy she made a promise with.


That said, I don't think she's a virgin. I don't know the mating habits of wolves, but - her current human appearance notwithstanding - she's old enough to have eaten a lot of people. That means old enough to know a few mating seasons.
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Old 2009-09-05, 16:51   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't know the mating habits of wolves, but - her current human appearance notwithstanding - she's old enough to have eaten a lot of people. That means old enough to know a few mating seasons.
Would be a twist for some offspring of hers to appear.. ;]
Though there's none.
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Old 2009-09-05, 17:02   Link #51
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Apart from excessive teasing, we can't see Horo making any serious, sexual moves on Lawrence. Even though she's supposedly dying for some warmth ;]

Also we ought to consider she's tad too prideful and sensitive to offer herself to just anyone - if Lawrence ain't getting it, doubt anyone had! Unless our Sage Wolf made some painful mistakes in the past.. ;]
I can only recall one instance where she truly put a move on Lawrence without it being a game, or otherwise easily misinterpreted, and that's when they are about to kiss after she sneaks into his bed.. a pretty clear sign and it seemed pretty mutual to me.

She also puts on a pretty clear move on him while they're getting drunk just before the festival (and just before the Amarti episode). But he's preoccupied with trying to tell her about the legend of Yoitsu's destruction, misses her point, and then ends up killing the mood entirely like a total blockhead

Whether Horo's made any mistakes or not, I think she's willing to make them again. Her recent teasing could be read as her trying to figure out why Lawrence is being so abstinent. If he doesn't care about her past sex-life, and he clearly loves her *and* wants to bed her, then I can see why she'd press on to find out why he's holding back.
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Old 2009-09-05, 17:19   Link #52
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
I can only recall one instance where she truly put a move on Lawrence without it being a game, or otherwise easily misinterpreted, and that's when they are about to kiss after she sneaks into his bed.. a pretty clear sign and it seemed pretty mutual to me.
You are talking about her making a preset for their escape, I guess, and sure it was a bit of a tease apart from that, which Lawrence misinterpreted (can't blame him!) - but the kiss was abruptly interrupted by her own hand and down-to-earth tone ;]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
She also puts on a pretty clear move on him while they're getting drunk just before the festival (and just before the Amarti episode). But he's preoccupied with trying to tell her about the legend of Yoitsu's destruction, misses her point, and then ends up killing the mood entirely like a total blockhead
I'd say that was just her being playfully posessive, haha. And he was inquiring about Yoitsu's location, not talking 'bout zee legend.

To think of it, that was one of best episodes and scenes - them showing such variety of emotions..

~D~
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Old 2009-09-05, 20:30   Link #53
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She's wolf. She was born as wild animal. How could you keep this weird idea like animal wouldn't have any sex at all for over 600 years? I don't get it. She could probably had ones with her friends in Yoitsu before the beginning of travel to south. Or she could have one with her past favourite boy in wheat field. I doubt if she could keep up 200 years promise without such strong bond. Or you really want to see author writing sex scene as spin-off to make you believe so? Quit day dreaming and face this reality.
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Old 2009-09-05, 21:33   Link #54
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Originally Posted by DreXav View Post
You are talking about her making a preset for their escape, I guess, and sure it was a bit of a tease apart from that, which Lawrence misinterpreted (can't blame him!) - but the kiss was abruptly interrupted by her own hand and down-to-earth tone ;]
Yeah, that's true, but then she didn't exactly give him any reason to doubt her up until that point. She pulls him in, and doesn't push him away. There was no reason for her to be that intimate about just warning him, and I'm sure even she realizes that some teases are going too far

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I'd say that was just her being playfully posessive, haha. And he was inquiring about Yoitsu's location, not talking 'bout zee legend.
I agree. I just read to that point in the novels, it's more obvious than in the anime that this was nothing more than teasing.

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She's wolf. She was born as wild animal. How could you keep this weird idea like animal wouldn't have any sex at all for over 600 years? I don't get it. She could probably had ones with her friends in Yoitsu before the beginning of travel to south. Or she could have one with her past favourite boy in wheat field. I doubt if she could keep up 200 years promise without such strong bond. Or you really want to see author writing sex scene as spin-off to make you believe so? Quit day dreaming and face this reality.
Wow, everyone's getting tense about this "issue"!

It's partly because she's not just an animal, and we don't know if she ever was just a regular wolf. This story gives you just enough reason to doubt either conclusion

For instance, given the fact that when she was in heat in the second OVA, if she was an animal then Lawrence probably wouldn't have much choice in the matter.

You can assume, of course, that with her casual attitudes towards most things and the time she's lived, that the likelihood of her virginity is pretty low. But there are enough hints either way that we don't have a definite answer.. so why get this worked up over what we cannot know for certain?
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Old 2009-09-05, 21:59   Link #55
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If it's based completely on animal instinct (directed to Windows X), wolves are partners for life so if it were the case I would think she'd be a little more sensative on subject, and since her old friends also had inredibly extended life spans/immortality, it would'nt make sense for her to have a sexual relationship w/ more than one, maybe two other wolves. And If i understand correctly, she has been trapped in wheat for most of her life, possibility of having a mate before she was trapped is high, but not definite, nor is her virginity, or lack there of.

Last edited by Arashi500; 2009-09-05 at 22:02. Reason: ...
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Old 2009-09-05, 22:52   Link #56
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This thread reminds me of the Kannagi issue...
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Old 2009-09-05, 23:00   Link #57
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This thread reminds me of the Kannagi issue...
History is doomed to repeat itself, after all
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Old 2009-09-06, 00:30   Link #58
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I have to say, it never occured to me that Horo would be a virgin at all. I just assumed with 600 years of life, one has to have taken that step a few times before at the very least, in both her forms.

So I don't really see what the fuss is about. I think that if she were a virgin, that would surprise the heck out of me. As well as make me think the author a bit of a coward taking the easier route.

If the issue is never truely revealed in the novels, I think it's just safe to assume she's had plenty of sex in the past and move on. Horo's Horo, regardless of her virginity.
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Old 2009-09-06, 01:32   Link #59
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This doesn't remind me of the Kannagi issue at all.

No one here is upset like those crazy guys. We are just discussing exactly what Horo meant.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable for her to have had partners seeing how she lived hundreds of years. Lawrence didn't seem surprised.
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Old 2009-09-06, 01:46   Link #60
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This doesn't remind me of the Kannagi issue at all.

No one here is upset like those crazy guys. We are just discussing exactly what Horo meant.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable for her to have had partners seeing how she lived hundreds of years. Lawrence didn't seem surprised.
That's not what I meant though. It reminded me of Kannagi because both of them were deity's and both of them lived hundreds of years, regardless of the virginity issue.
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