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Old 2009-09-02, 22:21   Link #621
Evy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otakufan View Post
I find it interesting that no one's mentioned Nanjo as a possible co-conspirator in the Jessie/Kanon murder. Assuming the murderer didn't possess a master key of his/her own, the killer could have taken Kanon's key from Jessica and used it to lock the door, then passed it off to Nanjo in the time before Battler-tachi discovered the body.

As Nanjo, being a doctor and all, would have been (and was) the only one allowed to touch the body, it would be relatively simple for him to plant Kanon's key back on Jessica's corpse (particularly while everyone was distracted by Rosa and Battler), thus creating the illusion that it had been there the whole time.

Obviously, this theory implicates someone other than those who have a master key (i.e. the servants), since if they did taking Kanon's would be meaningless as the killer could have simply used their own.
If he had planted the key back, he wouldn't have been able to lock the door again.
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Old 2009-09-03, 07:20   Link #622
Jan-Poo
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uh? what otakufan is trying to say is that Nanjo had the key all along, and after everyone went inside the room, after Battler pointed out that maybe Jessica had still the key with her, Nanjo skillfully made it so it seemed that he took the key from jessica's corpse.

There was no need to lock the door at that point.

This kind of theory can work for many different "closed rooms"
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Old 2009-09-04, 09:48   Link #623
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Yeah, basically whoever volunteers to check the corpse for the key had the key originally and was palming it all along.
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Old 2009-09-04, 10:10   Link #624
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But wasn't Nanjo with Rosa, Battler, and the others the whole time, which thus excludes them from murder. The only ones who weren't with that group if I'm correct are Shannon, Genji, and Gohda (and we only have Shannon and Genji's own word that they were writing Kinzo's will - how can we prove that they actually were?)
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Old 2009-09-04, 10:33   Link #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
But wasn't Nanjo with Rosa, Battler, and the others the whole time, which thus excludes them from murder. The only ones who weren't with that group if I'm correct are Shannon, Genji, and Gohda (and we only have Shannon and Genji's own word that they were writing Kinzo's will - how can we prove that they actually were?)
Rosa checked with Kinzo that they were really with the Grandfather, right before she appeared with the gun. Guns are in Kinzo's room.
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:41   Link #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
But wasn't Nanjo with Rosa, Battler, and the others the whole time, which thus excludes them from murder. The only ones who weren't with that group if I'm correct are Shannon, Genji, and Gohda (and we only have Shannon and Genji's own word that they were writing Kinzo's will - how can we prove that they actually were?)
That's why I don't think Nanjo is the killer (at least not for EPII's second twilight), though he may very well be an accomplice. The killer(s) - being one (or more) of those who left the "Battler-tachi" group at some point after the first twilight was discovered (Gohda, Genji, Shannon, and Rosa), joined the group sometime afterward (Kumasawa), or never joined the group to begin with (Kinzo and Suit-Beato) - passed Kanon's key, after locking up Jessie-sama's room with it, to Nanjo sometime before Rosa decided it was time to check on Jessica/Kanon.

Being the doctor, it was only natural that Nanjo check Jessica's life signs (or lack thereof), allowing him plenty of time and access to place the key back on Jessica's corpse, thus ensuring that the servants (if not necessarily Kanon) come across as the prime suspects.

Whether he was "in on it" from the start or bribed by someone (not necessarily the killer) with the promise of a cut of Kinzo's gold, is impossible to know at this point. That's probably also why Nanjo was killed by the faux-Kanon as well, so as to ensure that he couldn't talk and destroy the second twilight's apparent "closed room" scenario.

Curious also that Kumasawa was killed at that point too... I don't think that was accidental. Those two were probably faux-Kanon's targets from the start. She may have also played a significant role in the second twilight, possibly having spiked Jessica's inhaler (I'm really loving that theory). Or she could simply be the missing fourth twilight (seeing as Gohda was the fifth).
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Old 2009-09-06, 02:10   Link #627
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I think that Jessica's inhaler being spiked is very plausible, and didn't Gohda drink some soup right before they saw Kanon? Maybe all the food in in the mansion is poisoned?

Kinda off topic, but has anybody actually been eliminated as a suspect yet?

Umineko is even higher than Higurashi on the headache scale...
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Old 2009-09-06, 03:55   Link #628
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Well Gohda stated that he used ingredients that were sealed so there wasn't any chance of poison, I'm kind of skeptical about that statement though.
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Old 2009-09-06, 04:30   Link #629
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This could mean of course that the ingredients were tampered with pre-sealing, which is highly unlikely, or Gohda lied.
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Old 2009-09-06, 05:00   Link #630
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Hmm... since the Kanon that Gohda and the others saw had a blue blade thingy he's obviously not the Kanon from before, as he had a red blade. So his body is still missing? That's either suspicious or he's being framed... (Not to speak ill of the 'dead' )
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Old 2009-09-06, 06:49   Link #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
This could mean of course that the ingredients were tampered with pre-sealing, which is highly unlikely, or Gohda lied.
OR there's a chance that the utensils used was smeared with poison/hallucination drugs. =]

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Old 2009-09-06, 16:39   Link #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
This could mean of course that the ingredients were tampered with pre-sealing, which is highly unlikely, or Gohda lied.
Or one of the other servants just slipped something into the soup, or drinks everyone was sharing, when everyone's back was turned. Easy peasy.
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Old 2009-09-07, 10:32   Link #633
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I thought about giving some food for thoughts for the first time anime viewers.

This is the character table from the official umineko anime site

http://umineko.tv/web/main/character/index.html

So everything contained there is meant to be available to anime viewers, however most of you probably do not understand japanese, so I'll try to explain what is it written there.

Upper left square: Eldest brother's family:

Ranked 2nd - Eldest son - Krauss Ushiromiya
Ranked 10th - Natsuhi Ushiromiya
Ranked 6th - Jessica Ushiromiya


Upper right square: Eldest sister's family:

Ranked 11th - Hideyoshi Ushiromiya
Ranked 3rd - Eldest daughter - Eva Ushiromiya
Ranked 7th - George Ushiromiya


Center left:

Attending physician - Nanjo


Center:

Ranked 1st - Kinzo Ushiromiya


Lower left square: Second brother's family:

Ranked 4th - Second son - Rudolf Ushiromiya
Asumu (died six years before) <- that's Rudolf's first wife
Ranked 12th - Kyrie Ushiromiya <- second wife
Ranked 8th - Battler Ushiromiya <- the graphic shows that Battler was born from Rudolf and Asumu
Child <- There's no other info on this mysterious "child", but the graphic shows it was born from Rudolf and Kyrie


Lower right square: Second sister's family:

Husband <- I wonder why they used the kanji of "husband", afaik Rosa never married. There is no info about this mysterious man, the only reason to suppose his existence is the fact that Rosa couldn't have procreated alone.
Ranked 5th - Second daughter - Rosa Ushiromiya
Ranked 9th - Maria Ushiromiya


Family servants:

Head servant: Genji
Servant: Shannon
Servant: Kanon
Servant: Gohda
Servant: Kumasawa


On the lower left corner we have the two witches known so far:

Beatrice and Bernkastel

to the right from there

the seven sisters of Purgatory:

Eldest sister - Lucifer <- pride
Second sister - Leviathan <- envy
Third sister - Satan <- wrath
Fourth sister - Belphegor <- sloth
Fifth sister - Mammon <- greed
Sixth sister - Beelzebub <- Gluttony
Seventh sister - Asmodeus <- Lust



As you can see there are a few info here that were never disclosed in the anime.
First off you may wonder what is this rank system. The character table shows every Ushiromiya's rank, but neither the site nor the anime explain why. The novel did at this point, but for that you'll have to read the thing under "spoiler" at the bottom of my post. Anyway you might want to take a closer look at how the family members are seated during lunch and dinner:



Another thing that in the anime wasn't mentioned but it is clearly shown here is the complex Battler's family situation. Asumu was never mentioned in the anime, but she's mentioned here. She was Rudolf's first wife and Battler's mother.
Kyrie is the second wife. You can see here that Kyrie and Rudolf had a child.
I guess you are completely clueless as to what's this child's name and sex and why you don't see this child at the family conference. This was explained in the novel since the beginning, but it appears that Studio Deen thinks it is better for the anime viewers to not know for now.
If you want to know anyway, see below under "spoiler tag".


Another thing that the anime hasn't covered yet is the full list of the seven sister's names. This character table also explains the age order.


Now for those who wants to know more.
What is under the spoiler tag below is only stuff that was uncovered in the first Episode (anime ep1 to ep5), however as per rules established by the mods, I still put it under spoiler tag because that's info not included in the anime. So it is your call whether you want to read this or not.

Spoiler for Rank system:



Spoiler for Battler's family situation:



Spoiler for servant rank?:
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-09-08 at 07:02.
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Old 2009-09-08, 13:38   Link #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Spoiler:
*applauds* Thank you for doing this. I'd give you more positive reputation if I could.
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Old 2009-09-08, 23:07   Link #635
sora1412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evy View Post
If he had planted the key back, he wouldn't have been able to lock the door again.
Let me ask the question," Is that key is the REAL key?"
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Old 2009-09-09, 18:08   Link #636
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This is probably extremely late.
I think the Eva/Hideyoshi locked room from episode 1 (anime arc 1) could've been done with tape or glue, if that's not disputed in red...

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Old 2009-09-09, 18:24   Link #637
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I somewhat doubt it played out like that, both in the VN and in the anime Genji pushes pretty hard on the door.

It would have to be abnormally strong.

It is possible, though.
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Old 2009-09-09, 20:52   Link #638
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@Li Jianleng:

If the killer used a minor adhesive, like duct tape or Elmer's glue, there's no way it would hold against Genji trying to enter. If the killer used an adhesive like Krazy Glue, it could have held against Genji's attempts, but there's no way he could remove it later.

It's not specified how well the lock was inspected later. The best I could find was:

Quote:
"...The chain for this room was set. ...I only just saw how it was set up a second ago, but I'm sure it wasn't something that could be opened by some trick from the outside. ......In other words, this was a perfect closed room."
I don't think the lock would pass that inspection if the killer had used Krazy glue or the like.

Simpler explanation:
Ordinarily, chain type locks are designed so that the chain isn't long enough to go on or come off if the door is open more than a crack. So at some point, the killer or an accomplice replaced the chain with one that was, say, an inch longer. The killer then was able to put the chain back on from the outside. Nobody checked the length of the chain afterwards.

Any regular resident of the island could have adjusted the chain easily; a non-resident could have bribed a servant (perhaps Manon or Renon) to do so. Alternately, a killer could have brought a length of chain and modified the door himself. Any person who knew that the chain had been adjusted could have then locked the door. (But the modification would require a certain premeditation.)

However, Genji is the most suspicious person in this case. He showed Eva & Hideyoshi to the room, and could have picked the room with the long chain. He also sent Kanon away to get wire cutters before Kanon could try reaching through the crack.
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Old 2009-09-10, 07:53   Link #639
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Well if you want to include suspicious people in this theory then the ones who prepared the rooms for the guests were Kumasawa and Shannon.
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Old 2009-09-10, 08:42   Link #640
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Except that, IIRC, Kumasawa & Shannon arranged rooms for E&H in the guesthouse. Eva & Hideyoshi were sleeping in a room in the mansion.
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