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Old 2009-09-08, 08:31   Link #41
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
I know Keitaro can be a courageous person, and is said to be much better in the manga. And while I would normally NOT analyze Love Hina's plot, I'm trying to figure out if the childhood promise really made significance with his choice. Because if it did...and he stuck with that girl, then the story would just be tease.
Actually, Keitaro is from the beginning somebody somewhat courageous even if no one can really guess it at first (including the girls in this story).

He's courageous enough to take the exams to Todai again and again. But he lacks some things, and is shy.

I think LH (the manga. I didn't watch the anime), is a good story. Not mean to be realistic (I guess no RL man is immortal like keitaro is), but in which you can see people evolving, and somewhat modify their pov about him. Not only Keitaro, but also the other people around him.

For example, Motoko sees him as a weak and stupid person (somewhat), but also learns to appreciate his kindness and his "hidden" courage throughout the story.

Quote:
I'm not saying that's my opinion on women, it's just a situation THAT CAN happen. It's possible for a woman to want spineless man just so they can domineer over them and vice-versa. I didn't say that was love at all.
You reply to somebody who clearly generalize (in a wrong way), by saying:

Quote:
Some women DO want spineless, weak boys but that's so they can domineer over them mentally and sexually. It's a really bad kind of relationship, but its very possible.
And I hope you realize that it can also sounds like a generalization which can be resumed as "if some women date spineless weak boys, that's to dominate them" (which is not true about all women who date weak boys. That was my point).

Now if I was wrong, I apologize. But please, watch your words, especially when you reply to a generalization. Thanks in advance.
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Old 2009-09-08, 08:36   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Actually, Keitaro is from the beginning somebody somewhat courageous even if no one can really guess it at first (including the girls in this story).

He's courageous enough to take the exams to Todai again and again. But he lacks some things, and is shy.

I think LH (the manga. I didn't watch the anime), is a good story. Not mean to be realistic (I guess no RL man is immortal like keitaro is), but in which you can see people evolving, and somewhat modify their pov about him. Not only Keitaro, but also the other people around him.

For example, Motoko sees him as a weak and stupid person (somewhat), but also learns to appreciate his kindness and his "hidden" courage throughout the story.
That is a good point there. And I'm not sure if this thread is just to focus on harem males IN ANIME ONLY as compared to those same ones in manga or light novels. From the romantic point of view, I'm just try to figure out the significance of the childhood promise and if it's standing made a real impact on Keitaro's romantic future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
And I hope you realize that it can also sounds like a generalization which can be resumed as "if some women date spineless weak boys, that's to dominate them" (which is not true about all women who date weak boys. That was my point).

Now if I was wrong, I apologize. But please, watch your words, especially when you reply to a generalization. Thanks in advance.
I will, I think it was just word confusion. I used the word "They" to refer to those women who would domineer over the weak men, not all women in general.
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Old 2009-09-08, 08:54   Link #43
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
That is a good point there. And I'm not sure if this thread is just to focus on harem males IN ANIME ONLY as compared to those same ones in manga or light novels. From the romantic point of view, I'm just try to figure out the significance of the childhood promise and if it's standing made a real impact on Keitaro's romantic future.
Well, I can't talk about the LH anime since I haven't watched it, but at least, I have the feeling that if LH (the manga) has had a big success, it's also because it is not a harem series without any evolution characters wise.

Now Keitaro "might" be put in the jerks bag by some people if you consider that during a good part of the story, he doesn't say clearly to the other girls that he aims for Narusegawa. The problem is that he is oblivious about other girls feelings, even if I think he has some doubts, but maybe because he fears to look like an idiot if he asks it, he prefer to stay quiet.

(
Being oblivious about other people' feelings, is something that can happen IRL too. In this case, the person is not a jerk who acts like that on purpose to hurt other people feelings.

Now, as i said, i didn't watch/read a lot of harem series, and so I don't talk about the characters (girls and boys) who are aware that many people love them, and don't clearly reject them if not interested.
)

About the promise, I think it affected him in some way. Because it gave him a goal. If he tries so hard to enter Todai, it's because that girl is important to him even after all those years, and because he made a promise. It sounds silly because it's a promise made between little kids, but he actually needs some kind of courage to actually stay true to it.

I don't believe every people actually choose things "just like that". Like "i will enter a law school", pouf. A lot of people have reasons, goals, dreams behind their decisions. And I believe it can help them to make some step in their life.

So the promise, in my opinion, was the trigger that helped him to build his future in a nice way. I think Akamatsu might have tried to tell his readers that you can have a goal, and work hard during a veeeeeeeery long time before achieving it. But he also tells us that you need a bit of luck, and also that having people around you to cheer you up can help.

Quote:
I will, I think it was just word confusion. I used the word "They" to refer to those women who would domineer over the weak men, not all women in general.
I edited my other reply, I apologize again
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Old 2009-09-08, 09:07   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
I'm trying to figure out if the childhood promise really made significance with his choice.
That's an interesting difference between the anime and manga.

In the anime
Spoiler:


In the manga
Spoiler:


By the way I don't think retaking Toudai exams over and over again is courageous. The way he's portrayed is more of a loser who has no aims or goals except this one hazy memory that he pursues with little hope, and even then he doesn't exactly give it his all.
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Old 2009-09-08, 09:47   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinoto View Post
Think of it this way, if a Harem lead wasn't an irritable brat, indecisive twat, or just plain slow. It would be a Hentai.
My thoughts exactly.
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Old 2009-09-08, 09:55   Link #46
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Well Keitaro is basically the prototypical male lead so his archetype is used in many other harems as well. A lot of harems end up being similar to Love Hina in one way or another with the same trope about girls eventually coming around to like the male lead.

I think the gist of the some of the argument here is that kindness and generosity shown by the male lead "misleads the girls" around him. But I don't think that's the case at all. The story is written such that the girls like him because of that attribute, and not that he's using that attribute to lure girls in.

Conversely it's like saying a girl being nice and friendly towards you implies that she likes you, which is of course not true. Actually this scenario parodied a lot in anime where we see the guy--usually the sidekick--ending up disappointed because he mislead himself into thinking that.

On meekness, I'm reminded of when Burt Reynolds, Trans-am driving mustached celebrity 'badass', often joked about (and a funny person himself), but still viewed as a manly man, said this about Willie Nelson on an interview with Jay Leno regarding the 2005 remake of the Dukes of Hazzard: (unfortunately there's no video clip online)
Quote:
"When I worked with Willie Nelson, who is just about the nicest man I've ever worked with in my life, the sweetest, kindest man, I thought, 'If I'd have been gay, it would have saved me millions,'

he told Jay Leno in the show broadcast Thursday night. Reynolds said that if he'd have hooked up with Nelson, they'd still be "happily together."
The "saving millions" by being gay is a joke about his divorces but he was serious in his sentiments about Willie
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Old 2009-09-08, 11:38   Link #47
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Another thing to adress in harems is the impossible way the lead ends up with a harem in the first place. It is always some magical or too ideal way where he is alone all his life and then 5 bishoujos end up in his life at the same time.

Is it his charms, darn luck, fate, plot elements that lead to this? From what I see, the leads never wanted girls around them in the first place. It's the girls coming in their lives uninvited and demend attension, marriage, sex, whatever.

The reasons are more or less far fetched as well. Childhood friend, binded by destiny, best genes for offsprings.

So, who are the real jerks here?
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Old 2009-09-08, 12:09   Link #48
Nukerjsr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
By the way I don't think retaking Toudai exams over and over again is courageous. The way he's portrayed is more of a loser who has no aims or goals except this one hazy memory that he pursues with little hope, and even then he doesn't exactly give it his all.
I agree. And actually if it not for him failing the exams twice, he never would of met any of those girls he knew in the first place. Maybe Naru and Mutsumi out of dumb luck, but he wouldn't know them enough or get in that many zany situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npcomplete View Post
Well Keitaro is basically the prototypical male lead so his archetype is used in many other harems as well. A lot of harems end up being similar to Love Hina in one way or another with the same trope about girls eventually coming around to like the male lead.

I think the gist of the some of the argument here is that kindness and generosity shown by the male lead "misleads the girls" around him. But I don't think that's the case at all. The story is written such that the girls like him because of that attribute, and not that he's using that attribute to lure girls in.
That's another interesting call actually because most of these men do have extreme kindness and tolerance around the various girls. I think it all goes into that mystical bond sort of thing, because that way they are drawn into them naturally. Because they are "The Chosen One", they "Can See Demons", or "Childhood Memory," it gives them the initiative to get to know the boys.

Here's another realistic harem scenario thing: The "leads" in question have no male friends. Sure, they may have one best friend who you will see occasionally, but these boys have really low social skills. All they do is hang around with the girls and usually do not hang around with other people or try to get to know other people. And there's usually no explanation for why they are anti-social, they just...are. I also wonder why this happens.
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