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View Poll Results: Spice and Wolf II - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 17 29.82%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 26.32%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 18 31.58%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 10.53%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.75%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-07, 14:12   Link #81
Arashi500
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Yeah, the faces in this episode did'nt look "normal" to me either. And the overall animation in the facial area was pretty bad.
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Old 2009-09-07, 14:22   Link #82
Intranetusa
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$5 says Lawrence is a virgin. XD
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Old 2009-09-07, 15:34   Link #83
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As for whole wolf-human form and differences of virginities...

Well I would like to ask what most of you consider virginity to be - is it strictly physical (hymen) or is it the state of mind?

Lets say, compare two cases: if the girl was raped as a child once, would you say she is not a virgin?

Or better yet does a girl who still has her hymen in tact but was making out naked with more men you could count and did some oral sex, is counted as a bigger virgin than the one in the first case?

Like in Gekkoh - the heroine still has her hymen (which belongs to the main hero I guess) but have been french kissing with majority of guys in the maga, allowing them to grope her naked body and some even lick her vagina (all that did not happen was putting it in and breaking the hymen, though in some cases it almost happened and she was more than willing, just some accidents got in the way).

So is the second (Gekkoh) type of girl is more innocent and a real virgin while compared to the first case?
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Old 2009-09-07, 15:39   Link #84
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What do innocence and virginity have to do with each other? Is a girl who's lied, stolen and killed, but happens to never have had sex, more innocent than a girl who's slept with her husband?
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Old 2009-09-07, 15:51   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
As for whole wolf-human form and differences of virginities...

Well I would like to ask what most of you consider virginity to be - is it strictly physical (hymen) or is it the state of mind?

Lets say, compare two cases: if the girl was raped as a child once, would you say she is not a virgin?

Or better yet does a girl who still has her hymen in tact but was making out naked with more men you could count and did some oral sex, is counted as a bigger virgin than the one in the first case?

Like in Gekkoh - the heroine still has her hymen (which belongs to the main hero I guess) but have been french kissing with majority of guys in the maga, allowing them to grope her naked body and some even lick her vagina (all that did not happen was putting it in and breaking the hymen, though in some cases it almost happened and she was more than willing, just some accidents got in the way).

So is the second (Gekkoh) type of girl is more innocent and a real virgin while compared to the first case?
That girl in Gekkoh pisses me off. I would have felt better if she actually slept with somebody.
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Old 2009-09-07, 15:59   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Well I would like to ask what most of you consider virginity to be - is it strictly physical (hymen) or is it the state of mind?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What do innocence and virginity have to do with each other? Is a girl who's lied, stolen and killed, but happens to never have had sex, more innocent than a girl who's slept with her husband?
The hymen has nothing to do with it anymore, because it is now possible to have a type of plastic surgery to replace it.

The innocence myth is perhaps the most laughable. Saying someone is sexually pure or innocent because they are virgin is so naive/delusional it is almost painful to witness.

As a result, virginity is, to me, an emotional state of being. Not a physical one. I do not value it, because it means a lack of experience, but I do not feel it is such a negative that I cannot be intimate with someone I really care about. That being said, I'm not exactly the most "experienced" person out there, so I'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself.
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Old 2009-09-07, 17:09   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What do innocence and virginity have to do with each other? Is a girl who's lied, stolen and killed, but happens to never have had sex, more innocent than a girl who's slept with her husband?
I had in mind innocence as in sexual one.
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Old 2009-09-07, 18:59   Link #88
Arashi500
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I had in mind innocence as in sexual one.
I'm not even sure how you mis-interpreted his definition of innocent, ahn-minh.
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Old 2009-09-08, 01:21   Link #89
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This show's best asset is subtlety. It doesn't break it down to hand-feed it's audience. We either get it, or we don't. When we get it, the satisfaction and the appreciation that follows is so tangible. Loved every minute of this episode.

I'm also grateful to SFW for doing such a good job with the translation and the effort they are putting in with the editing. Every innovative series throws fansubbers different kind of challenges. This show is all about balancing translation and editing. SFW has been stellar so far in those categories to say the least. Thank you guys!
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Old 2009-09-08, 06:17   Link #90
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So can we cosnider your question answered, fish eric?

It all depends on what you imagine virginity to be, thus if you think it is the state of mind then her having a mate in wolf form would make her a non-virgin in human form even if she had a hymen.

If you think virginity as just physical (thus admitting that Gekkoh kind of heroine who had been in a arms of too many men to count without loosing her hymen is a virgin), then her having a hymen in human form would make her a virgin, no matter how many experiences she had in wolf form.
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Old 2009-09-08, 16:01   Link #91
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Really all based on opinoin i guess.
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Old 2009-09-08, 23:42   Link #92
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The question is not what virginity is, but is there anyone, human or wolf, that Horo was intimiate to enough to willingly give her body away, matter not in wolf form or in human form.

IMO, virginity is a state of mind, in which the girl herself considers still having a physical and mentally complete "one and only" thing to give away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
As Anh_Minh stated the two leader male and female are the ones that are giving birth and mate while others take the role of hunters and nanny's. Since Horo never seemed to be a leading female and have had her own pack it is strongly implied that as a wolf she may be a virgin.
She might have offspring, but they may simply died off, or she just wasn't intelligent by then and does not remember.

Or she might have a wolf partner after becoming immortal and (may be) losing her reproductive capability at some point, yet still not capable of transforming into her human form by then.
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Old 2009-09-09, 00:29   Link #93
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It's funny that people suddenly jumped from virginity to offspring. It's like I'm suddenly reading an american comic book.
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Old 2009-09-09, 00:56   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
She might have offspring, but they may simply died off, or she just wasn't intelligent by then and does not remember.

Or she might have a wolf partner after becoming immortal and (may be) losing her reproductive capability at some point, yet still not capable of transforming into her human form by then.
She was intelligent to remember the other pack but not her own? If she was mature to form her own pack she would have left the first pack to mate, yet it is not like that. Remember that we see some points of story from her point of view and never does she mention her offspring which, if you know wolves, are the most important for them after personal lives. So the only way she could have offspring was before being cautious thus before being a god.

You are saying that simple wolves become gods, right? But if a wolf becomes a god and does not have any ties with a previous life (nor memory, nor the body (as you can see god wolf bod in different from a normal wolf, not to mention the fact that she has had to be old enough to mate but after becoming a god her age turned into younger or else she could not co-exist in the pack lead by others)) you can just as successfully say she was created out of nothing.

Its like I would be saying that you before you became a human lived your life as herring and you have a true family swimming somewhere in a sea.

It is pointless because it is just illogical claim about the fact that can never be denied or confirmed because no possible ties to the current situation exist.

I mean neither her mind, nor her body is the same and her offspring are already dead (even if they are alive and turned into gods, their connection with Horo would be gone for the same reason - their mind and body changed).

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-09-09 at 01:06.
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Old 2009-09-09, 01:00   Link #95
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My adult body is pretty different from my toddler one, and I have no memory of that time either. It doesn't mean I was never a toddler.

I suppose it's possible she could have been born a normal wolf pup, become a normal wolf alpha, evolved into an infant god - leaving her normal wolf pack at the same time - and only then started acquiring memories as we think of them.
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Old 2009-09-09, 01:02   Link #96
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I have to say this discussion for the last couple pages was something to read. We've definitely gone into a philosophical place with this virginity issue. It is impressive how everyone can get into this in a calm way.

Anyways I can't wait for the next episode. I'm really uncertain if it was a bluff by Abe or not. It has been a while since the church was a direct threat to Horo so I guess you could say we're due . Besides have to figure out how the cities situation plays into the whole affair. It's not Spice and Wolf if Lawrence isn't in some kind of trouble. Would assume Lawrence and Horo would have to make some money from the situation while under some kind of pressure. Right now Abe seems to be a possible source of that pressure.
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Old 2009-09-09, 01:19   Link #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
My adult body is pretty different from my toddler one, and I have no memory of that time either. It doesn't mean I was never a toddler.

I suppose it's possible she could have been born a normal wolf pup, become a normal wolf alpha, evolved into an infant god - leaving her normal wolf pack at the same time - and only then started acquiring memories as we think of them.
Yes, but then she does have no relation to them - just like you do not consider toads or cicadas to be part of or family.

Heck if we follow Buddhism we can say that neither of us are virgins, simply because we lived our previous lives as animal or something else and most likely mated and now all we do are rolling in this eternal samsara's cycle.

But offspring do not exist simply because we are essentially different beings. Just like god-wolf is different from wolf, thus talking about offspring in previous life is pointless as you changed your level of existence completely.

So in this sense you are a virgin in both mind state (no memories) and physical (no experience in this form) sense... And talks about offspring in previous life become senseless.
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Old 2009-09-09, 01:28   Link #98
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I'm not talking about previous lives. I'm talking about previous stages of one life. I used the toddler/adult example, but I guess a more telling one would be the tadpole/frog. Or caterpillar/butterfly.
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Old 2009-09-09, 01:53   Link #99
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I'm not talking about previous lives. I'm talking about previous stages of one life. I used the toddler/adult example, but I guess a more telling one would be the tadpole/frog. Or caterpillar/butterfly.
Then talk about your previous sage of life as a monkey. Oh wait, humans did not evolve from gorillas and chimpanzees, they just had the same ancestor. So how about talking about your stage as Australopithecus ancestor?

It was log ago? But wolf becoming a wolf-god happened also very, very long time ago. And the form differences between wolf and wolf-god is just as different (or similar, depends on your view) as ours with our australopithecus ancestors.

So how about you talk about that ancient family?

Wait you are saying that wolf and wolf-god is still the same being while you or me and our ancestors are not? But again I am arguing that they are not the same being since both their mind and body changed. Or are you saying that there is somethig else that defines being, apart mind and body? What, pray tell me? Spirit? But then we share the same spirit as our ancestors as well...
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Old 2009-09-09, 02:00   Link #100
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As for whole wolf-human form and differences of virginities...

Well I would like to ask what most of you consider virginity to be -
Virginity - I don't care? The term is a cartload of near-misogynist crap? An archaic description used to objectify women?

I'm laughing but I'm also quite serious.
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