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Old 2009-09-03, 12:06   Link #221
TJR
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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
Isn't "#3 for the studio" actually...really good? I mean, it's outselling Evangelion DVD's and lots of other stuff with big mainstream appeal.
It doesn't mean much of anything. If the overall success of the company is very low, #3 just indicates that Clannad is doing better than the rest. Evangelion is a very old title, and the last reprint (still very expensive) occurred almost a year ago, so you can't really expect it top charts.

Another inconclusive indicator is sell-through. If a product sells out both online and at retail, we can conclude that demand met or exceeded supply. However, supply is based on retail expectations/pre-orders in the first place.

I'll use hypothetical numbers here, but let's say that at the time of licensing, a publisher hoped to ship 2000 units of "Series A" to retailers. However, because the economy is weak, customer pre-orders are low, and competing titles have been failing, retailers order a mere 500 at launch. Subsequently, 500 eager customers snatch up all available copies, with another 100 waiting for another shipment.

By anecdotal evidence, fans might perceive that "Series A" is a smash hit. However, without real numbers, as well as a gauge of what the company originally expected to sell, it's impossible to draw a real conclusion. We know that the title is performing better than what retailers expected, but we don't know if it's truly a success (and in this example, 600 units represent only 30% of what was originally expected. It might be enough to break even, and it might be doing better than the rest of the company's lineup, but it's hardly a noteworthy hit).
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Old 2009-09-03, 13:48   Link #222
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Actually, quite a lot of people buy collections of American series on DVD they've "seen for free on tv". My wife has the entire collection of MASH, Firefly, Northern Exposure, plus many others. It lets her watch her favorites when there's crap on tv. So the meme "fansubs equal lost sales" incorrectly describes a more complicated situation. Example: I spend at least a thousand dollars a year on DVDs, figures, and CDs because of fansubs. Before fansubs, my expenditures were Zero. Streaming is lessening that need -- but I still can't guarantee a favorite series will be licensed for DVD. (e.g. petopetosan?, toradora?, mahoraba?). Until that day, fansubs serve a purpose because apparently some (like MFI) don't want my money My ability to preview a series via broadcast directly impacts the probability I'll spend money on it. Broadcast does not equal DVD anyway given the amount of cleanup, re-edit, and other improvements that go on (e.g. Tsukuyomi Moon Phase - broadcast vs DVD).

Part of the difficulty in figuring out if animation distributors are in trouble because of sales (or just suffer from abysmal management and poor decisions) is that almost none of them are traded publicly and we aren't given any insight into their actual figures in profit/sales/losses/operational costs. Their bipolar performance in customer relations don't offer any aid to their credibility either nor do their unsupported assertions. Watching a profitable company get toasted because it wasn't profitable enough just fizzles my serenity.

I'd love to give them money for the product I want and good customer service... ... ... but ADV spent several years absolutely pissing me off with its terrible customer relations. Not going to miss them and I hope the little spawn companies took notes on what not to do.

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-09-03 at 14:04.
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Old 2009-09-03, 14:56   Link #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
I'd love to give them money for the product I want and good customer service... ... ... but ADV spent several years absolutely pissing me off with its terrible customer relations. Not going to miss them and I hope the little spawn companies took notes on what not to do.
........what do you mean by "terrible customer relations" exactly?
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Old 2009-09-03, 18:09   Link #224
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
........what do you mean by "terrible customer relations" exactly?
Threats, bullying, and just being pricks in general about stuff they "might" own in the future.
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Old 2009-09-03, 19:08   Link #225
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Actually, quite a lot of people buy collections of American series on DVD they've "seen for free on tv". My wife has the entire collection of MASH, Firefly, Northern Exposure, plus many others. It lets her watch her favorites when there's crap on tv. So the meme "fansubs equal lost sales" incorrectly describes a more complicated situation. Example: I spend at least a thousand dollars a year on DVDs, figures, and CDs because of fansubs. Before fansubs, my expenditures were Zero. Streaming is lessening that need -- but I still can't guarantee a favorite series will be licensed for DVD. (e.g. petopetosan?, toradora?, mahoraba?). Until that day, fansubs serve a purpose because apparently some (like MFI) don't want my money My ability to preview a series via broadcast directly impacts the probability I'll spend money on it. Broadcast does not equal DVD anyway given the amount of cleanup, re-edit, and other improvements that go on (e.g. Tsukuyomi Moon Phase - broadcast vs DVD).
.
Oh I'm sure some people do but what I meant was that if it were not available on TV with no way to watch the show for free, and they relied on DVDs for their income--which means pricing them pricing them higher as current US TV show box sets are a steal, like 1/3 to 1/4 the price per time of anime--if they can convert those would-be viewers into buyers.

The same viewers who would watch those TV shows if they were available for free, legally or not, then decide later on whether or not to purchase it for their collection, like we do Not disagreeing with you, just addressing the point of "don't watch fansubs; buy the DVDs instead"
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Old 2009-09-04, 00:44   Link #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
........what do you mean by "terrible customer relations" exactly?
Actually, I was referring to:
1) Having a broken website that was years out of date in some cases. Did not reflect what they were selling. Failed to even keep their news releases up-to-date.
2) Failing to even auto-respond to email queries but certainly added you to a mail list for "newsletters" that touted stuff that did not actually happen or were severely lacking in actual information.
3) Failed to answer phone... how basic is this?
4) Failed to keep fans posted on release schedules.

and, yeah, what Wervy said. This behavior goes back several years at least, maybe more if my memory serves.
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Old 2009-09-04, 09:05   Link #227
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Actually, I was referring to:
1) Having a broken website that was years out of date in some cases. Did not reflect what they were selling. Failed to even keep their news releases up-to-date.
2) Failing to even auto-respond to email queries but certainly added you to a mail list for "newsletters" that touted stuff that did not actually happen or were severely lacking in actual information.
3) Failed to answer phone... how basic is this?
4) Failed to keep fans posted on release schedules.

and, yeah, what Wervy said. This behavior goes back several years at least, maybe more if my memory serves.
Actually a lot of businesses have phone triage. Try calling Media Blasters and see if you get a response.

Bandai Ent is better to use email imo.

Really the only ones that are good with phones are Animeigo, FUNi (when a live person picks up), Nozomi, Urban Vison and VIZ. Synchpoint, when it was around, was also good with phones. It's all staff related. If you have the staff, then you can answer the phone.
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Old 2009-09-04, 22:30   Link #228
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A bit OT but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Example: I spend at least a thousand dollars a year on DVDs, figures, and CDs because of fansubs. Before fansubs, my expenditures were Zero.
This does not reflect the vast majority of people who consume fansubs. I think it's a little naive to believe that companies actually gain much from fansubs.

Quote:
Until that day, fansubs serve a purpose because apparently some (like MFI) don't want my money
MFI didn't want permanent high quality copies of their products floating around the internet, available for free with the click of a button. I don't blame them.
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Last edited by Theowne; 2009-09-04 at 22:48.
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Old 2009-09-04, 23:56   Link #229
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Yeah, what matters is whether the availability of fansubs results in a net gain or net loss. I'm betting on the latter.
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Old 2009-09-05, 00:05   Link #230
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
A bit OT but:
This does not reflect the vast majority of people who consume fansubs. I think it's a little naive to believe that companies actually gain much from fansubs.
It reflects people who buy collections of their favorite series. The "vast majority of people" don't buy anything at all, anime or otherwise. The target audience for product are those who enjoy owning collections. This is true for any series, anime or otherwise.


Quote:
MFI didn't want permanent high quality copies of their products floating around the internet, available for free with the click of a button. I don't blame them.
You miss my point .... if they want to enforce copyright, fine, but sell me the product please or my sympathy for their plight diminishes. Since they never? intend on selling anything overseas they've not lost anything.
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Old 2009-09-05, 00:35   Link #231
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Quote:
they've not lost anything.
They've lost control over their product. They aren't responsible for ensuring every human being can buy their entertainment products, and choosing not to doesn't mean their products rightfully become up-for-grabs for open distribution on the internet.
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Old 2009-09-05, 01:18   Link #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Since they never? intend on selling anything overseas they've not lost anything.
I've always thought this argument to be a bit flawed, since it's not like studios straight up don't *want* to distribute their shows overseas...they shop it around and offer it up for licensing. It's just that it's not economically feasible to license, or the R1 licensing companies only have enough income/market strength to license a few titles, or R1 companies don't think it's possible to pay the price the studio thinks their show is worth. All problems which can be, indirectly, traced back to illegal distribution and poor DVD sales.

Although, really, this thread is about ADV specifically, not a general Fansubs vs Legitimate Releases or whatever debate. So let's not try to get too off-topic.
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Old 2009-09-05, 03:16   Link #233
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
They've lost control over their product. They aren't responsible for ensuring every human being can buy their entertainment products, and choosing not to doesn't mean their products rightfully become up-for-grabs for open distribution on the internet.
But if you at it from a black-box perspective, where you only measure the effects, then like Vexx said they have logically lost nothing tangible.

Those trying trying to control every aspect of access with an iron fist, especially when it does not negatively affect their bottom line, end up hurting their own reputation and business. Just look at the Warner Music Group (WMG) fallout with Youtube that led to all videos featuring songs whose rights are held WMG either being removed or audio being muted, and even their own music videos removed. Previously, most people were not aware of what WMG controls. Now, people who could have cared less about the industry are now keenly aware of WMG in a negative way with several videos and pages on youtube detailing all of the corporate WMG -> label -> sub-label -> artist chain.

In contrast, you have Kadokawa who in the past year+ decided to take things in stride. They struck a deal with youtube where they simply got a cut in ad revenue (a tiny amount per view/click) for material identified as owned by Kadokawa. Music videos and episode clips and full episodes are still uploaded. So they've lost control but it actually benefited them quite a bit.

Likewise if people who watched the series but don't have it available to them in any way to purchase, like how most of their shows start off, can still purchase figures, remix cds, books, and other merchandise that in turn still benefits Kadokawa, perhpas more so.

Even more recently, can you imagine how it would've affected Aniplex if they decided to clamp down on Kannagi from day one? Fansubs, youtube uploads, etc. Imagine the difference in reception they would've gotten at their panels in Otakon or their release announcement on the same day. Heck I think there probably would not be as many Kannagi cosplayers. Instead they took advantage of its popularity--popularity that grew outside of their control--starting with that mysterious US http://www.nagisamafanclub.com page launched months before the licensing announcement/DVD release.

And they did the same with Kara no Kyoukai, showing KnK for the first time in the US with the movie #5, the latest at the time, at the Boston con rather than starting with #1, along with hosting Yuki Kajiura and Kalafina. It's impossible that they are not aware of its popularity via fansubs.

Finally it's the same with Viz/TV Tokyo for Naruto. It was like the perfect transition. Had they clamped down hard long before simulcast, I doubt they would have as many viewers through CR, Hulu, etc.

edit: to get back on topic...
Quote:
Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
I've always thought this argument to be a bit flawed, since it's not like studios straight up don't *want* to distribute their shows overseas...they shop it around and offer it up for licensing. It's just that it's not economically feasible to license, or the R1 licensing companies only have enough income/market strength to license a few titles, or R1 companies don't think it's possible to pay the price the studio thinks their show is worth. All problems which can be, indirectly, traced back to illegal distribution and poor DVD sales.

Although, really, this thread is about ADV specifically, not a general Fansubs vs Legitimate Releases or whatever debate. So let's not try to get too off-topic.
Actually in an interview, Funi's CEO said that most licensors nowadays do not ask for much, if any at all, of an advance payment in licensing (ignoring big, hugely popular shows) instead opting for a cut per unit. Years ago R1 companies would pay a huge sum then recoup the costs and keep most of the profit later. It's probably the reason why Sentai/ADV/Section23/whatever are able to release the new titles to retailers with such a low street price. So I don't think there that many financial barriers for licensing old or niche shows now.

(BTW you might be thinking "licensor", but it's really not the "studios" who determine the price, nor are they the recipient of such fees They are usually out of the picture once a show is done.)

WRT regional licensing in general.. IMHO, it's ultimately unnecessary

Last edited by npcomplete; 2009-09-05 at 03:39.
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Old 2009-09-08, 12:15   Link #234
Forbin
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Originally Posted by solomon View Post
Did bandai make a big effort to push Haruhi?

I ask cause scince ads cost so much money, I assumed that often R1 companies assumed that if something got buzz on the net, then it would sell really well.
You mean the whole bit where they released videos featuring Patricia Ja Lee and sent her a cameraman and 2 Japanese girls to Toyko?

That must've cost some money.
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Old 2009-09-09, 00:16   Link #235
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one less company for american anime lovers , adv dubs are actually among the good ones out there.
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Old 2009-09-09, 05:19   Link #236
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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
I've always thought this argument to be a bit flawed, since it's not like studios straight up don't *want* to distribute their shows overseas
There wouldn't be region blocks if that was the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
It's just that it's not economically feasible to license, or the R1 licensing companies only have enough income/market strength to license a few titles, or R1 companies don't think it's possible to pay the price the studio thinks their show is worth. All problems which can be, indirectly, traced back to illegal distribution and poor DVD sales.
Removing the doubtful part, what's left is a truism.
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