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Old 2009-09-09, 12:18   Link #3861
LynnieS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
So, really, when we say city-state, which are we looking at?
If Israel doesn't already have a rather strong military, you might be able to do something along this line; however and unless it is willing to surrender (even a portion) control of its armed forces, that's not going to happen. And Israel will not - unless things changed drastically with lots of guarantees of protection and so on - do that. Guarantees that have very little chance of being kept, IMHO.

And it's not just Israel that I see standing in the way either. Christians and Muslims may have problems giving access also - at least the more hardened zealots anyway. Jerusalem is important to all three, and it just takes 1 guy - if he's important enough - to cause problems for everyone.

Topic change... I'm now trying to find the latest U.S. Social Security report that says the current net deficit is US$5.8 billion for August 2009. That's not a big deal - considering that a deficit has been ran for awhile now - but the future value as of 2037 on 4% RR for this extra borrowing is US$17 billion. That, current analysis is saying, will likely move the "drop dead" date of Social Security up from 2037.
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Old 2009-09-09, 12:31   Link #3862
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post
If Israel doesn't already have a rather strong military, you might be able to do something along this line; however and unless it is willing to surrender (even a portion) control of its armed forces, that's not going to happen. And Israel will not - unless things changed drastically with lots of guarantees of protection and so on - do that. Guarantees that have very little chance of being kept, IMHO.

And it's not just Israel that I see standing in the way either. Christians and Muslims may have problems giving access also - at least the more hardened zealots anyway. Jerusalem is important to all three, and it just takes 1 guy - if he's important enough - to cause problems for everyone.

Topic change... I'm now trying to find the latest U.S. Social Security report that says the current net deficit is US$5.8 billion for August 2009. That's not a big deal - considering that a deficit has been ran for awhile now - but the future value as of 2037 on 4% RR for this extra borrowing is US$17 billion. That, current analysis is saying, will likely move the "drop dead" date of Social Security up from 2037.
Here you go.
http://www.istockanalyst.com/article...icleid/3464994
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Old 2009-09-09, 12:59   Link #3863
Shadow Kira01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
Problem here.
You're bound to have a lot of trouble here.
There are ONLY 3 city-states in existence (Vatican, Monaco and Singapore) , with 2 other pseudo-city-states. (HK, Macau) And only 4 models.

1. Vatican City model.
Who's going to be the parent state (i.e. Italy for the Vatican)? The UN? Israel? Palestian National Authority? A third nation?

2. Monaco model.
Ok, that's possible. I give that to you. But, who's going to provide defenses? The UN? If not, who?

3. The HK model.
This just compounds the two problems above together.

4. Singapore model
Now that's WORSE. No LKY. No David Marshall. How now? (Even though the geo-political situations are almost the same)

So, really, when we say city-state, which are we looking at?
You forgot about the sixth one.

Its called: "None of the Above".

----

Simply, I have no clue as to why anybody would use some random city to be the template for Jerusalem. In fact, I don't have the slightest clue as to whether the five listed places can even be examples in the first place as that I know very little of the five location's politics and religion. And as you can see, the issue of Jerusalem is a religious and political one.
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Old 2009-09-09, 13:16   Link #3864
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Kira01 View Post
You forgot about the sixth one.

Its called: "None of the Above".

----

Simply, I have no clue as to why anybody would use some random city to be the template for Jerusalem. In fact, I don't have the slightest clue as to whether the five listed places can even be examples in the first place as that I know very little of the five location's politics and religion. And as you can see, the issue of Jerusalem is a religious and political one.
I know, for one, that Singapore comes close - it was like carving out a Chinese-majority territory from Muslim land (Malaysia, and Indonesia's waters.)
Ask any Singaporean on the forums for a clearer picture.
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Old 2009-09-09, 13:18   Link #3865
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Kira01 View Post
The best option available but will Israel agree to it? After all, Jerusalem is an ancient city of Israel in which it has ancient ruins and also a beautiful landscape. However, by making the city open to everyone, I am sure the Islamic community would be happy as that Jerusalem is the birthplace of multiple religions.
or...
leave it as an open city under israeli control
you know, like it is now

under arab rule, the city was closed off to jews
when Israel took it over, it became an open city

under israeli rule, the city is open to people of all religions
each of the three religions has a specific administraion that deals with its own holy sites, and anyone is free to visit them
and the city's administraiton is elected by popular vote (the arabs living in jerusalem can vote obviusly)

hence, leave it under israeli control, and give east Jerusalem to the Palestinians
best solution. (provided you're not a religious nut job)

letting the UN take control of it isnt a practical option (Israelis hate the UN, with good reason, so they wont hand it over to them)
and nuking it (while a nice idea) is too expensive since you have to relocated too many people (some of them, forcefully)
so until destroying it completely becomes a practical option, leave it in Israeli hands and hand east Jerusalem to the Palestinians
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Old 2009-09-09, 13:25   Link #3866
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
or...
leave it as an open city under israeli control
you know, like it is now

under arab rule, the city was closed off to jews
when Israel took it over, it became an open city

under israeli rule, the city is open to people of all religions
each of the three religions has a specific administraion that deals with its own holy sites, and anyone is free to visit them
and the city's administraiton is elected by popular vote (the arabs living in jerusalem can vote obviusly)

hence, leave it under israeli control, and give east Jerusalem to the Palestinians
best solution. (provided you're not a religious nut job)

letting the UN take control of it isnt a practical option (Israelis hate the UN, with good reason)
and nuking it (while a nice idea) is too expensive since you have to relocated too many people (some of them, forcefully)
Actually, you're perfectly right. To be honest, what Jerusalem needs now is just greater autonomy. On East Jerusalem... Well with greater autonomy, the City should be able to do something about it. Or maybe just give THAT its autonomy too.
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Old 2009-09-09, 13:29   Link #3867
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
Actually, you're perfectly right. To be honest, what Jerusalem needs now is just greater autonomy. On East Jerusalem... Well with greater autonomy, the City should be able to do something about it. Or maybe just give THAT its autonomy too.
both sides want "all" of jerusalem
giving east Jerusalem to the Palestinians while leaving the rest in isreali hands allows both sides to have SOME part of it
neither side gets everything, and neither side loses everything
its not perfect, but its practical
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Old 2009-09-09, 13:35   Link #3868
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
both sides want "all" of jerusalem
giving east Jerusalem to the Palestinians while leaving the rest in isreali hands allows both sides to have SOME part of it
neither side gets everything, and neither side loses everything
its not perfect, but its practical
For a start, let the East Jerusalem people form a neutral Special Administrative Region and elect its own legislature. Soon, it will decide on its own terms, its future, rather than a piecemeal option that would cause conflict in the area.
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Old 2009-09-09, 13:43   Link #3869
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
For a start, let the East Jerusalem people form a neutral Special Administrative Region and elect its own legislature. Soon, it will decide on its own terms, its future, rather than a piecemeal option that would cause conflict in the area.
here is the problem with this theory
currently, east Jerusalem falls under Israeli authority
but its population is mostly composed of Arabs
you'd THINK that if given a choice, they would rather fall under the control of the PA in any future settlement
you'd be wrong to think so

ironically, by living under Israeli authority, the Arabs living in east Jerusalem enjoy a considerably higher standard of living then the Arabs living under the PA
and hence, would actually want to AVOID having east Jerusalem becoming part of the future Palestinian state
they arent stupid, they know that the PA is corrupt and mostly incompetent even at the best of times
so long as they are under Israeli authority, they don't have a "choice" in the matter of who's authority they fall under
if you give then this choice by making them an autonomy, you end up putting them on the spot
they would have to make an official choice on whether or not to become part of the PA
and neither choice is good for them
if they choose no, they become traitors
if they choose yes, they become part of the system they want no part in

besides
you already have two diffetent authorities representing the Palestinian people (hamas in gaza, PA in the west bank)
do you really think creating a third one would be a good idea ?
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Old 2009-09-09, 14:44   Link #3870
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
here is the problem with this theory
currently, east Jerusalem falls under Israeli authority
but its population is mostly composed of Arabs
you'd THINK that if given a choice, they would rather fall under the control of the PA in any future settlement
you'd be wrong to think so

ironically, by living under Israeli authority, the Arabs living in east Jerusalem enjoy a considerably higher standard of living then the Arabs living under the PA
and hence, would actually want to AVOID having east Jerusalem becoming part of the future Palestinian state
they arent stupid, they know that the PA is corrupt and mostly incompetent even at the best of times
so long as they are under Israeli authority, they don't have a "choice" in the matter of who's authority they fall under
if you give then this choice by making them an autonomy, you end up putting them on the spot
they would have to make an official choice on whether or not to become part of the PA
and neither choice is good for them
if they choose no, they become traitors
if they choose yes, they become part of the system they want no part in

besides
you already have two diffetent authorities representing the Palestinian people (hamas in gaza, PA in the west bank)
do you really think creating a third one would be a good idea ?
i think there is a few arab families that might dispute your statement. of course since they don't live in jerusalem anymore they might not count.

Quote:
Britain has accused Israel of allowing extremist Jewish settlers to disrupt attempts at relaunching the peace process after police evicted more than 50 Palestinians from their homes in Jerusalem.
As Jewish settlers moved into the Palestinian homes, the British consulate said it was appalled by the evictions, which took place a few hundred yards from the diplomatic mission, after an Israeli court decided in favour of the settlers.
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Old 2009-09-09, 14:50   Link #3871
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i think there is a few arab families that might dispute your statement. of course since they don't live in jerusalem anymore they might not count.
interesting piece of news you got there
i wonder where you got it from...
wouldnt happen to be from "palestian news network" now would it ?
http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?opti...k=view&id=6352
the pallywood industry is hardly a proper place to get news from
considering that its main purpose is to demonize Israel in world public view
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Old 2009-09-09, 15:09   Link #3872
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
interesting piece of news you got there
i wonder where you got it from...
wouldnt happen to be from "palestian news network" now would it ?
http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?opti...k=view&id=6352
the pallywood industry is hardly a proper place to get news from
considering that its main purpose is to demonize Israel in world public view
How about the NY Times? It's not like it's the first time something like that's happened either.
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Old 2009-09-09, 15:15   Link #3873
Shadow Kira01
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The Jewish settlement seems to be quite a controversial issue. There is no doubt that the Jewish authorities had forced Palestinians to leave their homes for the sake of some Jewish settlers who came to the location for the purpose of wrecking havoc and causing trouble. The 50 families who were forced out from their homes were definitely not illegal immigrants of any sort but they were Muslims. Supposedly, the authorities of Israel should be protecting the poor and the weak, whether they are Muslims or not as that they are civilians yet they went and supported some right-wingers amidst international protests. Nonetheless, Israel claims that this entire issue is misinterpreted as that there are still quite a lot of anti-Semistism in the air, as well as the fact that lots of people are trying to demonize Israel and the Jews. Thus, I believe this is quite a complicated issue as opposed to something being simple.

Quote:
Britain has accused Israel of allowing extremist Jewish settlers to disrupt attempts at relaunching the peace process after police evicted more than 50 Palestinians from their homes in Jerusalem.
As Jewish settlers moved into the Palestinian homes, the British consulate said it was appalled by the evictions, which took place a few hundred yards from the diplomatic mission, after an Israeli court decided in favour of the settlers.
Not sure where Xellos got it from but I found it here:

Google

And don't click on the first link because of this and this.
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Last edited by Shadow Kira01; 2009-09-09 at 15:17. Reason: added photo from NY Times.
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Old 2009-09-09, 15:17   Link #3874
bladeofdarkness
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you make it sound like this was an arbitrary extra judicial move
the report itself clearly states that this is following a very long legal discussion
any trial that deals with ownership battles will have a loser in the end
the fact that this time around it was a Palestinian family is not indicative of anything

the authorities followed what the court order tells them to do
its that simple

@Shadow Kira01

the original report is by the "palestian news network"
the other site is copy-paste of it

and its 50 PEOPLE
not families
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Old 2009-09-09, 15:24   Link #3875
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
you make it sound like this was an arbitrary extra judicial move
the report itself clearly states that this is following a very long legal discussion
any trial that deals with ownership battles will have a loser in the end
the fact that this time around it was a Palestinian family is not indicative of anything

the authorities followed what the court order tells them to do
its that simple

@Shadow Kira01

the original report is by the "palestian news network"
the other site is copy-paste of it

and its 50 PEOPLE
not families
i forgot to in the link

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6736473.ece

it is form the UK times.
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Old 2009-09-09, 15:28   Link #3876
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i forgot to in the link

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6736473.ece

it is form the UK times.
interesting report
you know what i find especially interesting
the utter lack of any israeli representetive comments on what happened
or any explenations on the reason for the court order to evict
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Old 2009-09-09, 15:31   Link #3877
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
interesting report
you know what i find especially interesting
the utter lack of any israeli representetive comments on what happened
since you consider this article to 1 side, care to post a rebutal? fill in any info that is not in the article.
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Old 2009-09-09, 15:34   Link #3878
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
interesting report
you know what i find especially interesting
the utter lack of any israeli representetive comments on what happened
or any explenations on the reason for the court order to evict
There is that NY Times Article on the subject I just posted which gives a run down of the history behind the case...
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Old 2009-09-09, 15:43   Link #3879
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
How about the NY Times? It's not like it's the first time something like that's happened either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
There is that NY Times Article on the subject I just posted which gives a run down of the history behind the case...

interesting quote by Israel PM

Quote:
Countering criticism of another Jewish building project planned for Sheikh Jarrah, Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, said recently that Jerusalem residents had the right to live anywhere in the city



does all resident including people of arab descent can anywhere in Jerusalem or only those of Jewish descent can live anywhere they want.

Quote:
and that Israel’s sovereignty over the capital “cannot be challenged.
not much room for compromise here.
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Old 2009-09-09, 15:46   Link #3880
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
There is that NY Times Article on the subject I just posted which gives a run down of the history behind the case...
Quote:
The houses were built in the 1950s by a United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees when the area was under Jordanian control. Jordan gave the families ownership of the houses but had not formally registered the buildings in their names by the time the 1967 war broke out, according to the families’ lawyer, Hosni Abu Hussein.
yes
the detailed history is presented by the lawyer representing the families being evicted
its still one sided
the one detail about this case that is not subjected to debate (since even the lawyer admits it)
is that they got eviceted because they refused to payed rent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
interesting quote by Israel PM

does all resident including people of arab descent can anywhere in Jerusalem or only those of Jewish descent can live anywhere they want.
interesing quote
specificlly interesting in that its given in response to international demands for a limit of ONLY jews residents in jerusalem
arabs can and DO live wherever they want without any criticism
so yes
arabs can live wherever they want, the PM demands equal treatment for jews

Quote:
not much room for compromise here.
so long as the other side shows no signs of compremise in its negotiations positions about jerusalem (and it hasn't)
the israeli PM cant make any either
its a negotiations bluff
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