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Old 2004-07-15, 19:23   Link #41
Nubixkube
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I seriously doubt the 4th was reincarnated as Naruto for a few reasons. First off I believe that Orochimaru attempted to summon the 4th's soul/spirit but Sarutobi stopped him, not because that would have released the Kyuubi, but because the 4th was much stronger than the 1st, 2nd and Sarutobi himself.

Spoiler:


I don't think it is possible for Kyuubi to really die so maybe its impossible to kill it? Which is why he temporarily sealed it away in Naruto, instead of himself and then dieing and it escaping immediately after.

Also I believe Jiraiya would have said or thought something along the lines of this "Hey, you look alot like the 4th. Oh wait, you are the 4th. Silly me." or maybe "Its uncanny that Naruto and the 4th look EXACTLY the same." I think he'd have said something like that to someone or thought it to himself.

I assume that the 4th was a genius at creating jutsu's. And I think by altering one of his techniques to sacrifice his own life in order to seal a demon inside of another vessel was something he could manage. Why he choose to do this or seal it in Naruto, I have no idea. But I do have some ideas, which I've mentioned in other threads.

But here are some ideas that I've quoted from another thread I've posted in before.


Spoiler:
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Old 2004-07-15, 22:35   Link #42
Dauthi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sairon
If jiraya is telling the truth and isn't using sarcasm (which he doesn't seem to be) in episode 90, Naruto and the 4th have VERY diffrent traits.

I don't know how the 4th managed to stay on Gamabuntas head, but as far as we know Gamabunta could have allowed it, there's nothing which I recall that suggests that the 4th had to go through the same proccess as Naruto.

Also if you look at the picture of the 4th ( doesn't remember which episode that was ) it doesn't look like a young Naruto, sure there are similarities, but the face doesn't resemble Narutos very much at all.

You should watch that episode again, it IS stated that the 4th is the only one besides Naruto now to stay on his head while he tried to get them off.

Im not gonna bother arguing how much they look alike, because i feel they are very similiar physically.


Perhaps i should make my theory more clear. I never said anyone seen the 4th seal the kyuubi, in fact maybe thats why there are no cut scenes of it, because nobody was there to witness it.

Therefor if the jutsu backfired or didnt work right because it was a demon soul not a human, nobody would know that it was the 4th laying there when they found him. The 3rd would obviously assume he sealed it within a child.

Anyays another theory that i like is that the 4th and the kyuubi are sealed within Naruto. From what we heard from the 3rd is that after the jutsu is perfored both the performer and opponent are locked in battle inside the belly of death or something like that. So maybe the 4th is in him too, and just like how he has fox whiskers, some of the 4ths looks are implied on him as well.
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Old 2004-07-16, 09:17   Link #43
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Simple Enough

Ok, The Fourth Intended To Seal The Kyuubi Inside Naruto To Create The Next Generation Hokage, Which Would Be Even More Powerful Than The Fourth. And, Assuming The Fourth Was Able To Fight The Kyuubi On An Almost Equal Level, He Expected Naruto To Learn To Become Strong Enough To Master The Kyuubi And Harness Its Power.

Another Thing To Think About Is That It Said That Naruto Was A Baby That Just Had Its Umbilical Cord Cut Off, Now Some Of You Say, "His Parents Died Fighting The Kyuubi", Well Not The Mother Seing As She Just Had A Baby! However, The Father Might Have Died Fighting The Kyuubi, And Might Well Have (I Know Lots Of People Say This) Been The 4th. But The Mother Must Have Died Giving Birth To Naruto.
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Old 2004-07-16, 10:55   Link #44
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You Made Some Excellent Points, There. I Look Foreward To Seeing How This Debate Will End Up.

I think these are some rather compelling arguments. So far, I'm more convinced that the 4th was not reincarnated.

However, I don't think that the 4th intended for Naruto to be the next generation Hokage... just the village's "Trump Card." After all, Naruto himself mentioned that if he hadn't befriended Iruka, Sasuke, Sakura, and Kakashi, he would have turned out like Gaara... and I don't think that anyone would want a Gaara to be one of the Five Shadows.

I'm sure that Itachi was not the first ninja to betray Konoha and go rogue, so while the 4th wanted Naruto to be a trump card, I don't think he intended Naruto to be Hokage... unless he proved himself first against others.
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Old 2004-07-16, 12:09   Link #45
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the kyuubi only increases power and chakra, but it doesnt make you a genius for jutsu's and stuf. and naruto "is" a genius, not everyone can pull of a rasengan, let alone learn kage bunshin in a hour or three. well, all of the "could" be coincidence, but then there are naruto's looks, well.. it "could" be the coincidence again, but hey, would you give something as powerfull as the kyuubi to some newborn baby you don't know? i sure as hell wouldn't. then there is that brother or something from tsunade, he looks the same as naruto. ( although his hair color has been done strange in the anime mind you )

so my theory is, naruto "is" the son of the fourth. if not, it could be his big brother. cuz i remember jiraiya saying he looks like the fourth, and naruto was also the only one being tied to the pole just like yondaime. so that concludes my theory..

as for the thing that the fourth is also in naruto's belly, why didnt naruto see him? another point, i think the jutsu backfired, and that the god of death had something like.. omfg i cant take that kyuubi thingie, yondaime, think of something else will ya? and that is why he took someone else i think

of course this all is just speculation
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Originally Posted by Dalavita
And the genius term really sucks in Naruto. The only true genius in the series should be Shikamaru for now since they call talented people geniuses. (And they call Naruto the dead-last even when he beats all the so called geniuses up.)
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Old 2004-07-16, 12:41   Link #46
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Well, we're never told Yondaime was tied to the pole, just that Jiraiya and and Naruto were. By all accounts, Yondaime was the genius of his trio, like Orochimaru before him; that's the main difference I can think of between the 4th and Naruto growing up, whereas Naruto was a dropout, Jiraiya says Yondaime's genius was unrivled in history. Tsunade also makes remarks about the differences between the two. Now, this dosen't necessarily discredit the theory, as even for clones, twins, etc if raised in two different environments they can turn out completely different. Just trying to point out some differences.
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Old 2004-07-16, 13:10   Link #47
Dauthi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Shadow
Ok, The Fourth Intended To Seal The Kyuubi Inside Naruto To Create The Next Generation Hokage, Which Would Be Even More Powerful Than The Fourth. And, Assuming The Fourth Was Able To Fight The Kyuubi On An Almost Equal Level, He Expected Naruto To Learn To Become Strong Enough To Master The Kyuubi And Harness Its Power.

Another Thing To Think About Is That It Said That Naruto Was A Baby That Just Had Its Umbilical Cord Cut Off, Now Some Of You Say, "His Parents Died Fighting The Kyuubi", Well Not The Mother Seing As She Just Had A Baby! However, The Father Might Have Died Fighting The Kyuubi, And Might Well Have (I Know Lots Of People Say This) Been The 4th. But The Mother Must Have Died Giving Birth To Naruto.
Actually your point about the umbillical cord really good, it is almost impossible now for him to be the 4ths child. Did he bring his pregnant spouse to fight the fox as well? If so Naruto was conveniently born on the same day? I dont think so.

It also does more credit to the fact he could be reincarnated. If you were put back to the point where you were born you would have an umbillical cord untill it eventually fell off. Well in theory, since nobody can actually do that.

Naruto himself i still think is a genius, and if he had the right mentor, and he was more focused on training rather than trying to be noticed as a child, he could have been as good as the 4th at his age. Also remember, right from the start Jiraiya taught the 4th as well.


Your first assumption is a bit odd though. So your assuming that the 4th could tell the baby would be strong, or even have ambitions to be a hokage? What if he didnt give a crap? What if he became the guy that sells ramen next to Ayame?

Like i said before i dont think the 4th is the type to try to abuse the power of the demon fox, he would then be no better than the kazekage, and Itachi/his group. That would be very dissapointing...
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Old 2004-07-16, 13:16   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Shadow
Ok, The Fourth Intended To Seal The Kyuubi Inside Naruto To Create The Next Generation Hokage, Which Would Be Even More Powerful Than The Fourth. And, Assuming The Fourth Was Able To Fight The Kyuubi On An Almost Equal Level, He Expected Naruto To Learn To Become Strong Enough To Master The Kyuubi And Harness Its Power.

Another Thing To Think About Is That It Said That Naruto Was A Baby That Just Had Its Umbilical Cord Cut Off, Now Some Of You Say, "His Parents Died Fighting The Kyuubi", Well Not The Mother Seing As She Just Had A Baby! However, The Father Might Have Died Fighting The Kyuubi, And Might Well Have (I Know Lots Of People Say This) Been The 4th. But The Mother Must Have Died Giving Birth To Naruto.

Whoa there buddy! Don't tell me you capitalize the first letter of every single word everywhere else you post! That's simply wrong and very weird. I think it's worst than the ones who post in all CAPS! Do you do that when writing letters?
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Old 2004-07-16, 13:17   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbrother
Well, we're never told Yondaime was tied to the pole, just that Jiraiya and and Naruto were. By all accounts, Yondaime was the genius of his trio, like Orochimaru before him; that's the main difference I can think of between the 4th and Naruto growing up, whereas Naruto was a dropout, Jiraiya says Yondaime's genius was unrivled in history. Tsunade also makes remarks about the differences between the two. Now, this dosen't necessarily discredit the theory, as even for clones, twins, etc if raised in two different environments they can turn out completely different. Just trying to point out some differences.
oops, i meant jiraiya

and what i meant with, he took naruto blablabla, own family comes before others, and come on, would you rather give it to itachi? :P
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Originally Posted by Dalavita
And the genius term really sucks in Naruto. The only true genius in the series should be Shikamaru for now since they call talented people geniuses. (And they call Naruto the dead-last even when he beats all the so called geniuses up.)
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Old 2004-07-16, 15:33   Link #50
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When we were shown the attack of the fox, the 4th was shown on Gamabunta. In the later parts of the story, we can expect Gamabunta to reveal the secret behind Naruto's birth, now that the 3rd is dead.
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Old 2004-07-16, 22:36   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerniciousJuJu
ahaha... MAYBE...

[/spoiler]

I think that naruto is his son or something like that, that's why he sealed it in naruto. There has to be a reason why he chose Naruto right? I mean he wouldn't just chose some random kid. I also think that the reason why he sealed it in Naruto is because he wanted the village to think of Naruto as a hero but instead they thought of him as the demon itself. The 4th also left Naruto in Kakashi's care, who is one of three of the 4th's students. I believe the 4th was hoping kakashi would teach naruto how to use the kyuubi's power so he can protect the village just like how the 4th did.
Well,i just saw a few loopholes here.(*'loopholes' used for a temporary lack of vocabulary*)
Spoiler for (*Im' not sure if this is a spoiler,but no harm in excess-use of spoiler tags i always say*):
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Old 2004-07-16, 22:44   Link #52
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Hey don't you think it's weird that Naruto was left to grow up alone and pretyt much fend for himself?
For one thing he has kyuubi locked up inside of him, that should be very well guarded if you ask me.
And for another thing I just can't see the third as the kind of person who would leave a kid to live alone when what he needs is people to care for him.

That's another thing. How do you think Naruto ended up by himself? Some one must have taken care of him until a certain age ( I have my money on the third), and then something must have happened for Naruto to live alone.
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Old 2004-07-16, 23:23   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Dauthi
Actually your point about the umbillical cord really good, it is almost impossible now for him to be the 4ths child. Did he bring his pregnant spouse to fight the fox as well? If so Naruto was conveniently born on the same day? I dont think so.

It also does more credit to the fact he could be reincarnated. If you were put back to the point where you were born you would have an umbillical cord untill it eventually fell off. Well in theory, since nobody can actually do that.

Like i said before i dont think the 4th is the type to try to abuse the power of the demon fox, he would then be no better than the kazekage, and Itachi/his group. That would be very dissapointing...
Your theory about the umbilical cord and its credited validity that Naruto is the 4th reincarnated needs to be expanded so I can actually understand what you're saying. In all honesty, reincarnation is a rather subjective word don't you think? While there are many theories about reincarnation that I have heard of...this one is the most bizzare yet. Seriously, to die and then...reincarnated in the span of what? 2 minutes? 1 minute? 30 seconds?

If I recalled correctly, upon the sealing of Naruto in the manga, we were shown a picture of a baby surrounded by candles and blankets; umbilical cord cut. I'm beginning to think that the 4th has planned this all along. From the birth of a child to the sealing of Kyuubi.

I agree that the 4th is not the type to abuse power but he's intelligent and he realized that sealing Kyuubi inside of him is a waste of excellent resource. No matter what, it still stands that the 4th has planned this ahead and that he thought that the Kyuubi is something that could be proved useful if controlled. I really do think that Naruto is someone that's close to the 4th and I'm guessing as much that it's his son. While it's true that there are many holes in my theory, I think that it's the most plausible theory. To seal Kyuubi inside of Naruto does suggest that he's being protected or that the 4th thought that by sealing Kyuubi inside Naruto means that he will protected. So what does that mean? That means that Naruto is most definitely close to him.

Besides...clone or reincarnation. Does the 4th have the power to manipulate that beyond his control? Reincarnation is a rather large entity that I fail to understand how it could be controlled. The ability to manipulate the sealing jutsu on the other hand, so that it'll be sealed inside Naruto but not sealed enough so that Naruto can learn to harness it makes sense. I mean, despite the fact that this is something of a fantasy world, there has to be some sort of grounds, limits and laws to how much you can exactly control. Chakra, no matter how large can only control so much. The 4th was no god, he was still a human no matter how talented and powerful he is. He has limits and the ability to control things that seemed beyond hand is...just stupid.
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Old 2004-07-17, 01:34   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMLM3
Hey don't you think it's weird that Naruto was left to grow up alone and pretyt much fend for himself?
For one thing he has kyuubi locked up inside of him, that should be very well guarded if you ask me.
And for another thing I just can't see the third as the kind of person who would leave a kid to live alone when what he needs is people to care for him.

That's another thing. How do you think Naruto ended up by himself? Some one must have taken care of him until a certain age ( I have my money on the third), and then something must have happened for Naruto to live alone.
yeah, I've often wondered that myself.

I'd love to see a six month old change its own diapers...
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Q: When he went, had you gone and had she, if she wanted to and were able, for the time being excluding all the restraints on her not to go, gone also, would he have brought you, meaning you and she, with him to the station?

MR. BROOKS: Objection. That question should be taken out and shot.
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Old 2004-07-17, 02:27   Link #55
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Without reading all 3 pages...

I don't remember them ever saying that they used the same jutsu on Oro that was used to seal the demon fox. Get me if I'm wrong but it seems like there are probably more than a few different sealing techniques, so who is to say that they didn't just use a different one or a variation of that one? Guess it doesn't matter though, just another possible plot hole in another anime
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Old 2004-07-18, 15:47   Link #56
Dauthi
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Originally Posted by Bronwen Stx
Your theory about the umbilical cord and its credited validity that Naruto is the 4th reincarnated needs to be expanded so I can actually understand what you're saying. In all honesty, reincarnation is a rather subjective word don't you think? While there are many theories about reincarnation that I have heard of...this one is the most bizzare yet. Seriously, to die and then...reincarnated in the span of what? 2 minutes? 1 minute? 30 seconds?

If I recalled correctly, upon the sealing of Naruto in the manga, we were shown a picture of a baby surrounded by candles and blankets; umbilical cord cut. I'm beginning to think that the 4th has planned this all along. From the birth of a child to the sealing of Kyuubi.

I agree that the 4th is not the type to abuse power but he's intelligent and he realized that sealing Kyuubi inside of him is a waste of excellent resource. No matter what, it still stands that the 4th has planned this ahead and that he thought that the Kyuubi is something that could be proved useful if controlled. I really do think that Naruto is someone that's close to the 4th and I'm guessing as much that it's his son. While it's true that there are many holes in my theory, I think that it's the most plausible theory. To seal Kyuubi inside of Naruto does suggest that he's being protected or that the 4th thought that by sealing Kyuubi inside Naruto means that he will protected. So what does that mean? That means that Naruto is most definitely close to him.

Besides...clone or reincarnation. Does the 4th have the power to manipulate that beyond his control? Reincarnation is a rather large entity that I fail to understand how it could be controlled. The ability to manipulate the sealing jutsu on the other hand, so that it'll be sealed inside Naruto but not sealed enough so that Naruto can learn to harness it makes sense. I mean, despite the fact that this is something of a fantasy world, there has to be some sort of grounds, limits and laws to how much you can exactly control. Chakra, no matter how large can only control so much. The 4th was no god, he was still a human no matter how talented and powerful he is. He has limits and the ability to control things that seemed beyond hand is...just stupid.

I didnt say that the 4th used a jutsu to purposely make himself a child. And i use the word reincarnation for lack of a better word.

What i said was that he was reverted back to that age due to either the Kyuubi being unable to die, therefore it stays sealed in him, and instead of him dying (since if he dies the kyuubi goes as well) he becomes a child. Or maybe something happened because of the healing powers, or maybe the kyuubi interefered somehow in order to save his life. But thats that theory in a nutshell.

However your comments have inspired another thought, what if he did have some kind of jutsu that could revert him to a child? Now i know your thinking WTF hes not god! Well it wouldnt be that great of a technique, it would be like a very crappy version of Oro's technique, except a lot crappier. You lose all your memories and start from scratch. Anyways, if he knew that the fox had to be sealed, he could have done that jutsu after performing the sealing jutsu, somehowe negating the having to die part? It does solve the fact that he had everything prepared though, as well as the umbillical cord.

However it is true that with the candles etc. it does look like it was prepared before hand. Im still not buying that it was his son etc however, or that he purposely sealed the kyuubi within him. I dont think he would do that WILLINGLY, but if it was the only way for some reason, i would agree with that. Also the fact that the baby was JUST born makes the coincidence of it being related to him pretty far off, it just seems more likely it could have been some random baby.

Also the 4th could be sealed inside of him, perhaps in another door or something, or behind that Kyuubi .

Last edited by Dauthi; 2004-07-18 at 16:06.
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Old 2004-07-18, 18:00   Link #57
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I always wondered about one thing. The 3rds seal was not supposed to seal Orochimaru himself inside his body, but his soul. If the 4th used the same seal on Kyuubi, why was there never mentioned where the actual body (corpse) of Kyuubi is lying? What did he do? Did he sealed Kyuubi itself or just his Soul? It just makes no sense to me to compare the both Sealing teqniques.
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Old 2004-07-18, 22:26   Link #58
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Very interesting thread - i read all 3 pages and have taken in what you have all said.

I'm of the high persuasion that the Naruto and the 4th are directly related via an re-incarnation.

Think back to the battle with Kyuubi vs the 4th, the village was under attack and the last hope was the 4th. Kyuubi is a demon that comes age after age - the 4th's solution to defeat Kyuubi therefore, must involve someway to stop Kyuubi ever attacking again (otherwise, he'll just come again). Now, how do you do that?

What did Sarutobi say about the jutsu? He said something like, when the technique is used, the two would be locked together in eternity, together with one another. The 4th's solution was to seal himself and kyuubi together - but the trick to it, was that the 4th re-incarnated himself as a child and sealed the immortal 'Kyuubi' inside of him. How else do you deal with a demon that will not die. Only a handful, if any, like Sarutobi or Jiraiya would have known.

If everyone knew that the 4th (with Kyuubi) were Naruto, then every village would be out to get Naruto, knowing how good the 4th was. People like Orochimaru would not have known, as he has always been blinded with envy for Itachi, hence, his total overlooking of Naruto.

If you rewatch the series, there are some hints as to who Naruto is; in Ep 82, when Kakashi has a flashback with his talk with Jiraiya - Jiraiya says:

"Afterall, it's the role of the Third Generation to look after Naruto."

Now, who was Jiraiya's student? I'll leave that to you.
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Old 2004-07-19, 07:58   Link #59
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I read all 3 pages I think there are a lot of good points, but also some bad ones. Someone said Naruto was an orphan because his parents died during the fight against kyuubi, so they could use the baby. It wasn't like: "Hey, we need a baby, who would like to give his?" (when I remebmer correctly it was the voice of Sandaime). I think this is true. So all theories with Naruto being Yondaimes son or is Yondaime himself are untrue or not well-reasoned. Since Yondaime is the king (we heard it many times from everybody in the village) I'm sure his sealing jutsu had a higher level than Sandaimes. Also Jiraya's comment about the chakra flowing should give a hint that Yondaime could do a lot with this jutsu than just seal forever. The user of the jutsu dies (even if he only seals two arms). I'm sure Yondaime died and there is no revive system in the jutsu and some recarnation is also unlikely in my opinion. "So why does Naruto and the 4th are that much alike?" you will ask. Since the jutsu binds both souls (and chakra) for all eternity (well probably not the Kyuubi's) where is the 4th's soul? I think this brings us to the many similarities between Naruto and the 4th BUT also to the things that don't match. Naruto is not the Fourth and Yondaime is not Naruto's father, uncle, brother, grandpa or mother (lol to this idea).
There are some other questions: Why does the 4th bind kyuubi in Naruto and not in himself? All given answers are okay, I think. He didn't want OR could destroy such a big recource of chakra so he put it into a baby for later use or to be able to even bind the kyuubi to anything (if not bind away for all eternity just put it in a less secure cage).
Why didn't the villagers just killed Naruto to get rid of Kyuubi-chan ( )? Well, Noone knows what happens if Naruto dies. Will kyuubi be released or will he die? Even Kyuubi doesn't know for sure, why should he protect Naruto if he would?

If you found some holes in this theory or something else that proves I'm wrong, I'm happy to show the contrary
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Old 2004-07-19, 08:32   Link #60
VMLM3
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If naruto isn't related to the fourth in some way, then how come they look so much alike? And about the fourth's soul, didn't anyone think the soul hung on the death god's cross looked a little like the fourth? Check it out, they've obviously made the soul look like what they've shown us the fourth looks like.
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