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View Poll Results: Spice and Wolf II - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 8 17.39%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 12 26.09%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 36.96%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 13.04%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 6.52%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-10, 16:17   Link #21
Deathkillz
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I don't trust Abe...she looks like the double crossing backstabber type to me AKA bitch!

But oh come on Lawrence...gamble anything but Horo you fool. You would think he had learnt his lesson by now...nope still a complete nincompoop...
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Old 2009-09-10, 18:05   Link #22
Zek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Why are you defensive now, Horo asks. The answer is obvious at this point: Lawrence, after seeing what has happened in the previous debacle with Amati, knows that there are things you cann afford to gamble and thinks you will try to protect at all costs. However as Horo continues to say, there's obviously still that gap of trust between them. Horo was willing enough to risk herself for him during the worst of times but he still can't trust her enough. During the Amati problem he was so gung-ho that he didn't trust Horo enough. Now he's so cautious to take the fur trade deal to again trust Horo enough. At least with Horo's words at the end of that discussion he gathered enough balls to go along with the plan.
I don't think so, Lawrence got defensive because he recognized the risk of losing Horo and he knew that was much more serious than a simple financial investment. It's weird that Horo didn't seem to realize that. Sure he might have been worried that Horo would be offended at the idea of doing this but that's a natural concern for anybody, it would be worse if he just assumed she would be okay with it given that they're talking about selling her if things go south.

Quote:
"I'll take care of you when you breathe your last."

So... uh... am I the only one who thought there was a bad omen about what she said that moment?
I think she's once again revealing her anxiety over the fact that she'll keep living while Lawrence grows old and dies. As usual he didn't catch on though.
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Old 2009-09-10, 18:57   Link #23
Mr. Anime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKnightWhoSaysNi! View Post
Lawrence sure is a top notch merchant though! Abandoning all human decency to make some profit... YOU DO NOT SELL YOUR TRAVELING COMPANION FOR CAPITAL. EVER. NO IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT SHE SAID ITS OKAY.
ur love for horo blinds u^^. this time its clearly horo who is responsible for the trouble that will most likely follow, poor lawrence.
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Old 2009-09-10, 19:32   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zek View Post
I think she's once again revealing her anxiety over the fact that she'll keep living while Lawrence grows old and dies. As usual he didn't catch on though.
I think it's not only that that he missed, although truth be told she's left so much up to him that probably wouldn't be able to catch any double-meanings this episode. He has a lot to plan and think about, not to mention some very real worries.

If my girlfriend was talking and acting like Horo did throughout this episode I'd be crapping my pants in terror, thinking that she was planning to ditch me. Hopefully it's just the subs and animation giving me the wrong impression, coupled with my usual tendency to read too much into things
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Old 2009-09-10, 19:50   Link #25
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Old 2009-09-10, 20:24   Link #26
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God I don't like this. Besides am I missing the obvious problem with this plan? They are in a major religious city here with Horo. Now they intend to sell her in this city. So what are they just hoping that no one removes Horo's hood? I mean she has a tail and wolf ears, this could turn into an epic disaster.

Anyways I just don't like this idea. Lawrence doesn't need to take this kind of gamble. There is nothing wrong with playing defensive if you don't want to lose Horo. This just feels needlessly dangerous.

Yeah the bar girl really has it figured out. No one would care about Lawrence when single (besides Chloe I guess) but now that he's taken he's suddenly someone to take notice of. Nice that the analogy was literal in Horo's case .
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Old 2009-09-10, 20:56   Link #27
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Post

Hopefully this thread won't derail into prolonged discussion about virginity or such alike, I've felt it was overblown because few peeps misunderstood Horo's tease and.. character ;]

The much awaited episode arrived, which hands us some major clues to figure out where both the plot and relationship of our couple is going in this arc.. alas, the clues feel tad too spoon-fed this time, the "figure it out on your own OR die trying" subtlety depth of the SnW is one of major sale-points for me.

To start off the discussion, I must disagree with those that are complaining about the plot progressing "too slowly". While the plot is about L&H's journey, it is not just the physical Pasroe-to-Yoitsu part alone, but more importantly, the journey of their characters and hearts.
The first season served as a general introduction of our beloved merchant-wolf couple, portraying their general traits, talents, desires and fears - drawing us a picture.
The second season seems to move on onto more complex level of this essence, with post-Amati arcs taking huge leaps on that journey. I very much enjoy how their characters and relationship flesh out, details and stains being added to the previous picture.

I am well aware some will just blitz through it with a sense of dissatisfaction, but on that note I daresay they are to blame themselves. One ought to ponder deeper over this story, with the experience of both novel and anime.
Nowhere close the caliber of, let's say, Neon Genesis Evangelion's depth, but it is a show that deserves some more thought, some meta-thinking.
With the foreword off my chest, I can finally move with the episode and story discussion..! ;]


Since the beginning of this arc things been going surprisingly well between Lawrence and Horo, with Lawrence finally making some good moves on Horo and her falling back a couple times, showing softer side.
Perhaps it is all too well for Horo, as some of her behaviour and words could imply.

The "sweet and salty" water is most likely reference to Horo's contemplations in Wolf and Amber Melancholy (adapted in SnW II, episode 0), where she concludes that providing too much of the same (emotion, treatment, food et cetera) would probably greatly reduce the effects, "an excessively repeated experience would lead to frustration and boredom." Ergo "if one gets sick of eating sweet foods, one should eat something salty" to preserve the joy. "Water" is something we have to take in everyday, therefore for the common day not to lose it's taste or turn into something tiresome, it must be well balanced.

In this arc the couple displays signs of getting used to each other presence and pleasant interactions; without a doubt, everyone have noticed how much focus Horo had on that topic. She seems partialy bitter, displeased with that state of things. "I want it to be like when we first met".. true enough the emotions back then were strongest and small things yielded exceptional emotional feedback, while some relatively outrageously bold actions like the recent princess-treatment is being carried out as something natural (by Lawrence).. and shuddered off so, too (by Horo).

With the clues from this episode as well as in conjunction with her blurbs in Volume 4 (the one that has been skipped in anime), Hero's particular act in episode 9, her finding something unknown scary, is much clearer.
I came to believe she is afraid of those positive emotions - joy, fun, fondness - fadding out too much, but at the same time she's unable to stay alone and preserve the balance, which leads to getting hold of Lawrence as he's about to walk off. On first time it was feeble attempt, on second it was small confession, on third time it was an event with a tone of.. spite, perhaps? Though Lawrence is to blame - "Rather than giving you a bait, I should be charging a boarding fee!" represents major twist in the thought's pattern - at first he was terribly grateful for Horo to be on his cart, to such extend that he felt the need at times to bait her into staying despite her being already there (Amati-case is major example). That remark of his says he takes her presence for granted. It just reassures Horo in her fears that things may be dying down.

I sense a bit of distance from her side in episode 10, on contrary to Lawrence, who's being very mindful of not only involving her but himself as well just not to trouble her as side effect. As a result of fear-spikes she may attempt to throw in some salt into their everyday water and with Lawrence finally getting out of his shell, it could lead to a clash where Lawrence engages emotionally too much and ends up with feeling of being rejected.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The plot with Abe doesn't seem as amusing to me, probably because I find it too straightforward. A handful of assorted thoughts and observations of mine:

- Abe's comment in episode 8 about "nervous fool sweating in their palms"; she was very nervous with that handshake in ep10, both the rapid movement and strained voice - the exaggerated, "deeper" sound that the joining hands made is that of sweated hand;

- Abe is obviously familiar with the city, area and trading routes well enough to know the local trends - her connections and knowledge of current situation are proof enough;

- about Abe's salt: she's seen on ship in the opening which could imply that's how she transports her statues and stones, which would be logical assumption as Abe herself admits the profit margin is low, but the quantity makes up for it. Cart seems too limited a capacity for that. Some noteworthy fact is salt being major factor in preparing, "curing", hides and fur. Since Renose is famous for those, it'd be natural for sea merchant to load on cheap salt back in the south (I assume she picks up the statues in southern regions,where the church influence is much greater, church-faith cities more common, thus making the statues cheaper);

- Abe's been interested in the 50man meeting outcome since the beginning. It is most likely she helped Lawrence to meet the chronicler in hopes he'd get scent of the meeting's outcome - thus gaining more time to prepare the funds, what not. All in all, she must have been aiming for the fur business for some time already. I think the inn-owner used to run a tannery before, which could hint toward them being business partners or accomplices ;]

- The whole deal Abe is offering is much more dangerous than it is being said: recalling literally armies of merchants and suppliers in the city and outside, you can easily imagine the scale of fur industry going on, as well as extreme weight of the 50man meeting's decision. Abe already exposed the fact some wealthy, powerful figures are trying to take advantage of the decision with no-credit-rule (which apparently is known to those with right connections before it makes to the public). The impact will be huge if those monopolistic plots go through, as legion of people will end up suckered up.

The profits will be great and normally the deal would be sweet if it wasn't for Lawrence needing to indirectly trust Abe with Horo's fate, not to mention the money. Horo will be pawned for funds. Granted they manage to get hold of some good amount, those will need to be shipped down the river and sold.

That takes a while, God knows what will happen to Horo meanwhile? The opening sequence with Abe sailing away is big hint to me - she seems to be fleeing Renose, which is in background, set ablaze in night, probably during inevitable riot caused by the fur market crash. The old landowner seems to be acquaintanced with Abe and apparently taking the occasion to ride along her on his pilgrimage. That implies he's well aware of Abe's plan and his offer of the inn is smoke for Lawrence to stay rather than to oversee the deal.
It strongly supports the idea that Lawrence will be doublecrossed. With Horo's fierce consensus, she will almost certainly be pawned for the investment in fur. Lawrence will be ditched by Abe and the landowner (what was his bloody name?), forcing him to buy out Horo and.. I do not know, pursue them? Seeing Abe got connections, experience, she'd be half way across sea/river by the time Lawerence would manage to buy out Horo and get a ship.


Dumped most of my thoughts on this topic in one go as it may turn out I won't be able to come around for five days.. again >.<
Apologies for hasted manner of this blurb, gotta disembark the train in ~5-10mins ;]

Cheers,
~D~

Last edited by DreXav; 2009-09-10 at 21:13.
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Old 2009-09-10, 21:03   Link #28
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There is some risk somewhere. I don't think Abe is all that trustworthy or the deal falls through somehow. Her being nervous sort of irks me.

What is the deal with the salt anyways?
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Old 2009-09-10, 22:42   Link #29
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Ah, come now guys, karma ensures that since the last time something like this happened Lawrence got screwed, it will turn out in his favor this time.


I haven't read the Novels myself, but it would be a pleasant surprise for me if Abe's deal genuinely benefited Lawrence, instead of screw him over like everyone is predicting.
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Old 2009-09-10, 22:44   Link #30
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What does "to train a horse to move without restraints, it's best to have a driver at the reins" mean in this context?
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Old 2009-09-10, 22:53   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Anime View Post
ur love for horo blinds u^^. this time its clearly horo who is responsible for the trouble that will most likely follow, poor lawrence.
There is something fundamentally wrong with civilly discussing a business venture that involves pawning your partner off for funds. Doing this with someone who's existence is a deception, with enough risk and external factors to make anyone with an ounce of foresight cringe... what the hell? Even if everything works out beautifully, and Lawrence gets his cut without any snags (yeah, that will happen...) YOU STILL FUCKING SOLD YOUR PARTNER. What are you going to do? Go buy her back and say "man! you sure come in handy when other merchants are in a pinch! I should remember that for next time!" How the hell are you going to look at them again!?

God whats worse than the immediate threat of Horo being carted off to nowhere, is the fact that she just got firmly labeled: CARGO. It's a giant kick in the balls to their previous relationship, and certainly to the first 6 episodes of this season where he was supposed to be learning NOT to do that.

Please tell me someone else is experiencing their entire being screaming in opposition of this...

There is absolutely no reason for Lawrence to be involved in this what so ever. Other than I R MERCHANT SO I MAKE MONEY!, which apparently is the reason they're going with. He already has a large sum of money stored from Amati (mainly thanks to Horo), he has the books he needed so he does not need Abe to get to Rigolo... worst case scenario he can't sell his load of furs in the town. And this is all Abe's god damn problem to start with! Lawrence already has a goal here, it's getting Horo home... read the books, get the info, get moving.

If someone walks up to you and says "There might be some gold under that land mine! Just hit it with this hammer and you can get it!" If you are stupid enough to do it, you are probably stupid enough to be surprised when it blows up in your face. And then you find out there's no gold. Well see Lawrence just took the hammer...

Last edited by AKnightWhoSaysNi!; 2009-09-10 at 22:58. Reason: more rage formed into words...
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Old 2009-09-10, 23:18   Link #32
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Quote:
Please tell me someone else is experiencing their entire being screaming in opposition of this...
Well, maybe not my entire being lol, but ya I'm definitely against Lawrence's decision for sure. If I was in his shoes I'd just say to Horo "I know you don't want to be with a coward but I can find other exciting business ventures elsewhere in order to fulfill my dream. Preferably ones that don't involve me selling someone I seem to be falling in love will "

If I believe slave trading to be wrong in general I raise that sentiment ten fold when it has to do with cute wolf goddesses that are my better half. I mean wtf Lawrence.
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Old 2009-09-10, 23:20   Link #33
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
God I don't like this. Besides am I missing the obvious problem with this plan? They are in a major religious city here with Horo. Now they intend to sell her in this city. So what are they just hoping that no one removes Horo's hood? I mean she has a tail and wolf ears, this could turn into an epic disaster.

Anyways I just don't like this idea. Lawrence doesn't need to take this kind of gamble. There is nothing wrong with playing defensive if you don't want to lose Horo. This just feels needlessly dangerous.

Yeah the bar girl really has it figured out. No one would care about Lawrence when single (besides Chloe I guess) but now that he's taken he's suddenly someone to take notice of. Nice that the analogy was literal in Horo's case .
Never was a problem for Liru. (Although it was highly questionable, why it was never a problem)

Spoiler for character:
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Old 2009-09-10, 23:33   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKnightWhoSaysNi! View Post
There is something fundamentally wrong with civilly discussing a business venture that involves pawning your partner off for funds. Doing this with someone who's existence is a deception, with enough risk and external factors to make anyone with an ounce of foresight cringe... what the hell? Even if everything works out beautifully, and Lawrence gets his cut without any snags (yeah, that will happen...) YOU STILL FUCKING SOLD YOUR PARTNER. What are you going to do? Go buy her back and say "man! you sure come in handy when other merchants are in a pinch! I should remember that for next time!" How the hell are you going to look at them again!?

Please tell me someone else is experiencing their entire being screaming in opposition of this...
If it makes you feel better, I certainly am "screaming in opposition" about this. But I'm screaming at Horo, not Lawrence. She sold herself, and she knows it.

If Lawrence had just said "Sure! I'll sell Horo!" then he'd be a total rat bastard and we'd all want to hang, draw and quarter him. But he *knows* it's fundamentally wrong, and doesn't want to do it, even when she gets upset at him for pointing that fact out repeatedly. In fact, he's looking for every excuse to not do it, until Horo lays into him.

In fact for once Lawrence does everything right. He involves her like a proper partner from the start. He does all the leg-work skillfully. He tells her the plain truth (even that the barmaid flirted with him). And so on.

Horo really is the one to blame here. She pushes his buttons to get him to do it. She ignores his requests for advice and involvement, essentially forcing him to everything on his own. She even plays the "I trust you completely" card. There is something unsettling about her behavior, not Lawrence's. Is she trying to get him into trouble? I suppose he could have continued to say "no, I won't do it", but he knows once her mind is set on something he'll inevitably lose.

If you want to be mad at Lawrence for letting Horo get into this mess, fine. But in the final conclusion, his only real fault was finally listening to her and trusting her against his better judgment. You know, that thing he was bitten on the hand for not doing earlier in the season?

If things go ill, he's most certainly going to have to buy her back. But he will be the one with the right to get angry with her, not the other way around. But you know he won't, because this is Lawrence. The guy can't get her angry at her even if she nearly ruins his life.
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Old 2009-09-10, 23:54   Link #35
Intranetusa
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
"I'll take care of you when you breathe your last."

So... uh... am I the only one who thought there was a bad omen about what she said that moment?
Old and dying Lawerence + forever young Horo...that bit just made me sad. ='(
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Old 2009-09-11, 01:08   Link #36
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Spoiler for My thoughts about ep 10:
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Old 2009-09-11, 01:59   Link #37
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I guess Abe is not a fox god.
and talking about hiding ears or tails, we already seen Diane without wings ^^ (or maybe she have other bird parts hidden beneath her clothes).
so there s possibility pagan god can hide their animal parts ( and Horo still young as a pagan so maybe she cant hide it?)
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Old 2009-09-11, 05:44   Link #38
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
If it makes you feel better, I certainly am "screaming in opposition" about this. But I'm screaming at Horo, not Lawrence. She sold herself, and she knows it.

If Lawrence had just said "Sure! I'll sell Horo!" then he'd be a total rat bastard and we'd all want to hang, draw and quarter him. But he *knows* it's fundamentally wrong, and doesn't want to do it, even when she gets upset at him for pointing that fact out repeatedly. In fact, he's looking for every excuse to not do it, until Horo lays into him.

In fact for once Lawrence does everything right. He involves her like a proper partner from the start. He does all the leg-work skillfully. He tells her the plain truth (even that the barmaid flirted with him). And so on.

Horo really is the one to blame here. She pushes his buttons to get him to do it. She ignores his requests for advice and involvement, essentially forcing him to everything on his own. She even plays the "I trust you completely" card. There is something unsettling about her behavior, not Lawrence's. Is she trying to get him into trouble? I suppose he could have continued to say "no, I won't do it", but he knows once her mind is set on something he'll inevitably lose.

If you want to be mad at Lawrence for letting Horo get into this mess, fine. But in the final conclusion, his only real fault was finally listening to her and trusting her against his better judgment. You know, that thing he was bitten on the hand for not doing earlier in the season?

If things go ill, he's most certainly going to have to buy her back. But he will be the one with the right to get angry with her, not the other way around. But you know he won't, because this is Lawrence. The guy can't get her angry at her even if she nearly ruins his life.
thx Bash, u just presented me with 10-30minutes of my life because in every aspect i think u hit the nail on the head so i wont have to write it again^^
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Old 2009-09-11, 05:50   Link #39
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I'm assuming that if shit does hit said fan, Lawrence might gladly sell his soul to the devil to get Horo back.

The question becomes how many people are equally willing to sell their souls to the devil to be Horo's partner.
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Old 2009-09-11, 08:08   Link #40
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I don't agree with most of the assessments already posted, upon a second watch of this episode. I think the most likely explanation for Horo's behavior is that she wants to prove to Lawrence that she actually does trust him; the theme to watch for should absolutely be trust as evidenced by the Amati arc that just occurred. Horo is, of course, worried about what will happen when they eventually make it (or fail to make it) to Yoitsu. She intimates many times that she has no expectation of his failure in the realms of business.

What I do not understand is why the sale of the inn was not broached in the plotting session between the owner, Lawrence and Abe. It seems like the inn, wagon and horse(s? damned if I can remember) would go a long way toward buying back Horo even if the worst did happen in their dealings, so neither Horo nor Lawrence should be that direly concerned about Horo's freedom. Not to mention the fact that a wolf goddess can probably escape most captors....

Also, what Horo wants is not necessarily Lawrence acting the same as he did initially. In their last private inn-room conversation, she pointedly reminds him of the fact that she does not have to be with him on her own journey; she chooses it because being with him makes her happiest. It's not as if she hasn't been explicit about describing her level of affection for Lawrence throughout. From seeing her behavior in the evenings, you can make a pretty good guess that what she is expecting is more for him to progress it than regress it or let it stagnate. I'm surprised that she hasn't had the wherewithal to make the first move when it comes to actual sexual intimacy -- it makes me have doubts that either one of them is actually experienced in that area, despite the unlikelihood of that in general.
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