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View Poll Results: Spice and Wolf II - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 8 17.39%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 12 26.09%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 36.96%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 13.04%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 6.52%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-11, 08:50   Link #41
Napseis
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Originally Posted by brain View Post
Also, what Horo wants is not necessarily Lawrence acting the same as he did initially. In their last private inn-room conversation, she pointedly reminds him of the fact that she does not have to be with him on her own journey; she chooses it because being with him makes her happiest. It's not as if she hasn't been explicit about describing her level of affection for Lawrence throughout. From seeing her behavior in the evenings, you can make a pretty good guess that what she is expecting is more for him to progress it than regress it or let it stagnate. I'm surprised that she hasn't had the wherewithal to make the first move when it comes to actual sexual intimacy -- it makes me have doubts that either one of them is actually experienced in that area, despite the unlikelihood of that in general.
I'm quite confused with this episode: why, when Lawrence seems to be OK to escort her to Yoitsu, then why in the earth she said that he should accept this offer and gamble to get the inn ? I mean, Horo is immortal compared to Lawrence, and even if now she's ready to make a sacrifice, what if she get bored and leave Lawrence?
Horo trust Lawrence more than the contrary, so he should have doubts when she say "I'll take care of you when you breathe your last." I think she means it right now, but does Lawrence think so? ANd what if he doesn't make the first move?
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Old 2009-09-11, 09:05   Link #42
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i had the impression that abe didn't have any ill intentions towards lawrence after the "handshake". So I'm guessing she wont rat out on him since she needed help with the deal.

And about using horo as insurance for the loan, I thought that they missed a lot of discussion about what would happen if the deal fell through.
There's the point of what Lawrence should be feeling when selling Horo and about what Horo is thinking when selling herself. Does Lawrence REALLY trust her words? I don't think so. Lawrence's level of confidence after the lecture seem to have been swept under the carpet and Horo's somewhat carefree attitude towards the deal isn't really helping the relationship.

Even if the deal went fubar, Horo could just turn into a wolf, escape, and return to Lawrence. At least for this deal, he should have some peace of mind that she wont dump him for another guy.
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Old 2009-09-11, 09:56   Link #43
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I don't agree with most of the assessments already posted, upon a second watch of this episode. I think the most likely explanation for Horo's behavior is that she wants to prove to Lawrence that she actually does trust him; the theme to watch for should absolutely be trust as evidenced by the Amati arc that just occurred. Horo is, of course, worried about what will happen when they eventually make it (or fail to make it) to Yoitsu. She intimates many times that she has no expectation of his failure in the realms of business.
You probably aren't far off the mark, because she certainly doesn't seem to acting rationally. But that's still no excuse for acting so out of character. If she wants to prove that she trusts him, it seems a little late when:
- she already let herself get caught for his sake in the first plot arc
- she is still with him after all the bonehead things he's done
- she comes home drunk, and lets him undress her without a care in the world

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What I do not understand is why the sale of the inn was not broached in the plotting session between the owner, Lawrence and Abe. It seems like the inn, wagon and horse(s? damned if I can remember) would go a long way toward buying back Horo even if the worst did happen in their dealings, so neither Horo nor Lawrence should be that direly concerned about Horo's freedom. Not to mention the fact that a wolf goddess can probably escape most captors....
Lawrence is clearly not worried about buying her back. The risk here is not proportional to the rewards and even Lawrence seemed to understand that. This is a church town, with a bishop in it. Abe has links with the church. Rigolo has tales about legendary figures like Horo. Horo's been wagging her tail in public like a puppy, with dangerous characters all over the place.

Doesn't she think that when she's "sold", there is a strong possibility that someone will peak under her hat and see some wolf ears? I know she's nigh-invincible in her wolf form, but if they take away her pouch of wheat and muzzle her, what then? She apparently can't transform without a reagent of some sort. If the church finds out this possibility nullifies Lawrence's bargaining position.

If she really is demonstrating her trust in Lawrence it's a very stupid way of doing it. We all know he'll save her somehow, but it's going to cost him dearly because when it's Horo that's threatened he doesn't give a rat's ass about himself.

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Originally Posted by brain View Post
Also, what Horo wants is not necessarily Lawrence acting the same as he did initially. In their last private inn-room conversation, she pointedly reminds him of the fact that she does not have to be with him on her own journey; she chooses it because being with him makes her happiest. It's not as if she hasn't been explicit about describing her level of affection for Lawrence throughout. From seeing her behavior in the evenings, you can make a pretty good guess that what she is expecting is more for him to progress it than regress it or let it stagnate. I'm surprised that she hasn't had the wherewithal to make the first move when it comes to actual sexual intimacy -- it makes me have doubts that either one of them is actually experienced in that area, despite the unlikelihood of that in general.
Experience issues notwithstanding, I can't blame him in the slightest for being afraid of getting more intimate with her. They've artificially prolonged their trip so she can figure out if she wants a longer-term relationship with him, but so far she has completely avoided the issue. It's kind of unfair to both of them to get more intimate in that regard, because saying goodbye will that much harder.

There are "practical" reasons for him to have cold feet, even if they seem selfish on the surface. One is the possibility of having kids. Although he seems much less religious than the people around him, he still does have cause to worry. Having kids out of wedlock, at that time, would have been a very serious thing. He's also not particularly well-established yet, so caring for kids won't be easy. I can go on, but I have other things to attend to atm
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Old 2009-09-11, 11:31   Link #44
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
Lawrence is clearly not worried about buying her back. The risk here is not proportional to the rewards and even Lawrence seemed to understand that. This is a church town, with a bishop in it. Abe has links with the church. Rigolo has tales about legendary figures like Horo. Horo's been wagging her tail in public like a puppy, with dangerous characters all over the place.

Doesn't she think that when she's "sold", there is a strong possibility that someone will peak under her hat and see some wolf ears? I know she's nigh-invincible in her wolf form, but if they take away her pouch of wheat and muzzle her, what then? She apparently can't transform without a reagent of some sort. If the church finds out this possibility nullifies Lawrence's bargaining position.

If she really is demonstrating her trust in Lawrence it's a very stupid way of doing it. We all know he'll save her somehow, but it's going to cost him dearly because when it's Horo that's threatened he doesn't give a rat's ass about himself.
She is intent upon adventure, so I think there will be satisfaction regardless of the outcome for her (and that she has truly considered the outcomes, other than the one where she gets captured and cannot escape). If her actual goal in complying with this scheme is to attempt to further their relationship, consequences and risks be damned, is she making the wrong choice?
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Old 2009-09-11, 12:48   Link #45
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She is intent upon adventure, so I think there will be satisfaction regardless of the outcome for her (and that she has truly considered the outcomes, other than the one where she gets captured and cannot escape). If her actual goal in complying with this scheme is to attempt to further their relationship, consequences and risks be damned, is she making the wrong choice?
Don't you think that's a little too selfish? Lawrence already practically gave up his life for her twice, and that was before he figured out he loved her. I'm pretty sure she knows he'll throw his life away for her (financially or physically), so why put him into any situation where that possibility is anything but remote? Does she love him or is he just a science experiment to her?

She can't be doing this just to help him (unless she's gone nuts). He's given her no reason to think that he's in a rush to open a store, nor in any rush to strike it rich. Every time she gives him such an opportunity, he gets greedy and into serious trouble. So why stop him now when he's finally learned that lesson? There are plenty of other romantic adventures they could undertake, and they've got plenty of time left with which to explore their feelings without rushing into danger.

I doubt she just wants sex, but if she does then her methods are clearly not working. He isn't going to take advantage of her while she's drunk, and he's clearly not buying the sweet little princess "I'm scared" routine. Yet, it seems like he's purposely avoiding her at night so he doesn't jump her bones. So why not do what she did in the second season, and jump into his bed and declare her intent? Is she scared of being that honest, or scared that he'll reject her (at which point why be so cruel to him in the first place?)

Besides, it's unfair for her to expect him to get intimate with her until she's willing to commit. It'll already be hard for them to say goodbye to one another, and if they take their relationship to the next level it'll be that much harder (not to mention a whole host of other complications that could arise). He isn't a man of steel, and she knows it. He's known bitter loneliness as well, so she should know he is trying to avoid as much pain as possible.

Ultimately, she's also sending Lawrence very mixed signals. First she wants him to trust her, and to involve her in things like a partner. So he does (the whole point of the Amati affair). Now she tells him to forget about all of that and just be his old self. She also genuinely asks him not to get involved in dangerous schemes anymore, and now she practically forces him into one. What the heck would you think if you were in Lawrence's shoes?

Finally, if she's trying to make him be the one to take their relationship to the next level, why not just wait? Surely she should see that he's already dangerously close to it. He keeps peeling back his mask, and getting closer and closer to her lately. If that's not going quickly enough, why doesn't she get involved and peel away some of her own mask?

In short, she's no longer acting like a "wise wolf" in my eyes. She's acting like a confused teenager in love that doesn't know what to do, but is pretending everything will be alright. And I can accept that, it's time she felt some desperation as well. She can't shoulder everything on her own. But then why not let Lawrence make the decision for a change? He clearly didn't want to do it.
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Old 2009-09-11, 15:17   Link #46
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She essentially admitted as much as the "wise wolf" facade being precisely that. I think she may actually be gunning for some kind of direct proposal -- especially with her offer of willingness to be there for him for the rest of his life. It seems impetuous, I agree. Maybe she expected to have been further progressed with him by the time they reach Yoitsu. Her behavior overall seems a bit bipolar. Is there ever any discussion in the series about why she usually stays in the Inns when Lawrence goes out?
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Old 2009-09-11, 15:27   Link #47
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Okay, I gave this episode a 6, and I was feeling generous. My desk is imprinted with my forehead.

I'd be saying Lawrence is carrying the Idiot ball, but it's more accurate to say he's replaced his brain with it.

Come on, how ridiculously dump can you get? Lawrence knows Abe has lied to him, he knows she's nervous about something, he knows Abe has a LOT to gain from betraying them, he's had to put himself in danger a few times for his wolfy girlfriend... and he's going to pawn off Horo, a pagan deity, to the friggin' Church.

And just after mentioning that Lawrence has enough money to start his own shop already! *facepalm*

I'm much more forgiving of Horo, she's been feeling awfully guilty for the occasional trouble she's causing her companion, and he's been making detours, both in his travels and his life plans, to accomodate her. It's obvious she wants to pay him back.

Lawrence could and should have shot down that deal.
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Old 2009-09-11, 16:33   Link #48
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I think Horo may just be on the semi-insane mental and emotional level by nowRight along with the 10th Doctor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75PyF...eature=related

Kind hard to blame her, or Lawrence. Any argument he has w/ Horo he cannot win. Logicaly, they have not thought this through very well, as it could be quite compromising if she were to transform during captivity. I also trust Abe more than the old man right now, he seems rather shifty.
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Old 2009-09-11, 16:39   Link #49
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Did anyone noticed on those images the bishop being mad and being held by some men while a carriage was leaving who i can only suppose is the carriage of Abe. If the bishop just fucked her over why was he so mad there.It seems to me like she did something to the bishop and that's why she is hiding her face in the town also. The old man seems like he wants to get away also. And he was hiding him self a little. They are obviously trying to use a stranger like Lawrence for something but we still don't know what exactly.
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Old 2009-09-11, 17:00   Link #50
BashZeStampeedo
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She essentially admitted as much as the "wise wolf" facade being precisely that. I think she may actually be gunning for some kind of direct proposal -- especially with her offer of willingness to be there for him for the rest of his life. It seems impetuous, I agree. Maybe she expected to have been further progressed with him by the time they reach Yoitsu. Her behavior overall seems a bit bipolar. Is there ever any discussion in the series about why she usually stays in the Inns when Lawrence goes out?
Are you referring to this line in the Mazui subs?

"In the end, the reason I advise you like I know the world's secrets is for my own sake"

She does call herself a wise wolf again shortly after that. I don't think she was saying her wisdom was a facade at all. She was telling him in that speech that she's been selfish, and to consider her advice "selfish" as well. She wants him to rely more on his own faculties like he used to, and that it was his turn to be selfish. She also told him she wasn't "sacrificing" herself like she did when the Medioh henchmen were after her.

I still find her behavior in that first scene stunning. She attacked him for falling in love with her and doing things the way she wanted him to do them. That's not a good sign, but I don't think she's bipolar - just afraid of his love and what it could do to him (and their relationship).

I am still not sure what happened in their last conversation. Did Lawrence finally "beat her" in their verbal sparring? She looked pretty.. stunned, I think? I took that part of the conversation to be either about her being stunned that he's come this far, but couldn't make out whether she was worried about it or happy about it.

Her "I'll take care of you line" was touching, yes, but I think it was her gently reminding him one last time to act like he did when they first met. It's quite possible she has something planned and is relying on his to act that way, and she's worried he's no longer capable of it. Which means she has possibly lost her faith in him this time.

The problem is that this isn't an innocent situation like Kumerson where they have an obvious "easy out". Horo isn't in complete control of it this time. Maybe she is overcompensating for what she sees as a lack of confidence on his part? If that's the case, she might have seriously screwed up this time. Lawrence shows no real signs of being less confident, just being more intelligent and strategic. If anything, his confidence as a merchant seems to have gone *up* since they first met.

Well, now I'm starting to ramble and confuse myself.. I think it's time to stop typing
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Old 2009-09-11, 17:49   Link #51
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I belive that line was actually her admitting she has been arrogant.
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Old 2009-09-11, 18:34   Link #52
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The one about her advice? That makes sense. Then her whole speech with him in the beginning sounds to me like she's basically telling him that:

- she's happiest when she's with him
- she admits that she's been arrogant and selfish
- she wishes he'd be more like that so she wouldn't feel so bad
- she's mad because she thinks he's doing this because he thinks she's fragile
- she is scared she's changing him too much, and wants him to be more like he used to be
- she wants him to prove that he's still the mad merchant she fell in love with
- she isn't just forcing him into this to "sacrifice" herself.

That's what I'm understanding. Any other thoughts?
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Old 2009-09-11, 23:02   Link #53
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Originally Posted by QuickSilverD View Post
Did anyone noticed on those images the bishop being mad and being held by some men while a carriage was leaving who i can only suppose is the carriage of Abe. If the bishop just fucked her over why was he so mad there.It seems to me like she did something to the bishop and that's why she is hiding her face in the town also. The old man seems like he wants to get away also. And he was hiding him self a little. They are obviously trying to use a stranger like Lawrence for something but we still don't know what exactly.
Well the bishop might have just been pissed because Abe said some parting words that weren't very flattering . If I had just been screwed over I'd hit the jerk with all the insults I could think of. Considering what Lawrence heard about the danger of the church I'd be walking around hiding my face also.

But you may have a point. At the same time I don't think there is time for a dramatic betrayal of any kind from Abe and that old guy. The most they have time for is some stress and danger from 'selling' Horo. I guess we'll see what happens though.
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Old 2009-09-12, 07:41   Link #54
Anh_Minh
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There is something fundamentally wrong with civilly discussing a business venture that involves pawning your partner off for funds. Doing this with someone who's existence is a deception, with enough risk and external factors to make anyone with an ounce of foresight cringe... what the hell? Even if everything works out beautifully, and Lawrence gets his cut without any snags (yeah, that will happen...) YOU STILL FUCKING SOLD YOUR PARTNER. What are you going to do? Go buy her back and say "man! you sure come in handy when other merchants are in a pinch! I should remember that for next time!" How the hell are you going to look at them again!?

God whats worse than the immediate threat of Horo being carted off to nowhere, is the fact that she just got firmly labeled: CARGO. It's a giant kick in the balls to their previous relationship, and certainly to the first 6 episodes of this season where he was supposed to be learning NOT to do that.

Please tell me someone else is experiencing their entire being screaming in opposition of this...

There is absolutely no reason for Lawrence to be involved in this what so ever. Other than I R MERCHANT SO I MAKE MONEY!, which apparently is the reason they're going with. He already has a large sum of money stored from Amati (mainly thanks to Horo), he has the books he needed so he does not need Abe to get to Rigolo... worst case scenario he can't sell his load of furs in the town. And this is all Abe's god damn problem to start with! Lawrence already has a goal here, it's getting Horo home... read the books, get the info, get moving.

If someone walks up to you and says "There might be some gold under that land mine! Just hit it with this hammer and you can get it!" If you are stupid enough to do it, you are probably stupid enough to be surprised when it blows up in your face. And then you find out there's no gold. Well see Lawrence just took the hammer...
Not to excuse slavery or anything, but you have to remember that people back then had a different outlook. In Rubinhagen, Lawrence risked getting shaved, have his teeth pulled out, and getting worked to death in a mine. They risked themselves in a much realer, more personal way than someone who can just declare bankruptcy and apply for government aid. This time, Horo's the one putting herself on the line. But, well, they're partners. She wouldn't be satisfied if Lawrence always took all the risks.
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Old 2009-09-12, 10:07   Link #55
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This time, Horo's the one putting herself on the line. But, well, they're partners. She wouldn't be satisfied if Lawrence always took all the risks.
Yeah, it's just a shame she doesn't accept or understand just how much Lawrence values her (though I won't fault her for it), nor how far he'll go to protect his "investment". If she partly has the nature of a wolf she should surely understand that his loyalty and subservience to her is going to get him killed. If she's scared of that, then why is she forcing him into a situation even he knows is too dangerous?

Lawrence has to man the f**k up and start asserting himself in front of Horo. He needs to start being more confident when in her presence, no matter how "out of his league" she is. If he doesn't start challenging her alpha status, this downward spiral of crises will continue until one of them is dead (and guess who that's likely to be). He's gone from having too little faith in her to having too much.
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Old 2009-09-12, 10:38   Link #56
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Doesn't she think that when she's "sold", there is a strong possibility that someone will peak under her hat and see some wolf ears?
I'm expecting something like this to happen by Abe, who would rat Horo out on the Bishop (after selling her ofc), who would chase her to the ends of the earth...so that Abe could have Lawrence as her partner or something.
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Old 2009-09-12, 11:12   Link #57
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I'm expecting something like this to happen by Abe, who would rat Horo out on the Bishop (after selling her ofc), who would chase her to the ends of the earth...so that Abe could have Lawrence as her partner or something.
I do get the impression that Abe's possibly "interested" in Lawrence (maybe even beyond business), but it's way too early to tell. All signs point to her simply being desperate, which is a very bad sign. However, Lawrence is clearly having an impact on the ladies now, and isn't letting it get to his head (which is a very good sign). Let's hope the signs balance each other out
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Old 2009-09-12, 11:48   Link #58
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I don't think Abe is stupid enough to think Lawrence will take her, after she rats out Horo.
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Old 2009-09-12, 18:54   Link #59
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I can't believe he's even considering this plan, and that Horo insists on it too.
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Old 2009-09-12, 19:14   Link #60
BashZeStampeedo
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I don't think Abe is stupid enough to think Lawrence will take her, after she rats out Horo.
Neither do I. I didn't mean to imply that, I just meant that she might actually have taken an interest in him (a flight of fancy more than anything). Besides, if she does rat Horo out I doubt she would want to have anything to do with Lawrence period (business or otherwise).

However, there is a chance Abe is being more or less honest. If she does have an "interest" in Lawrence (business or otherwise), she might propose ditching Horo and running off with the money, especially if something unexpected derails their plan.

I'm also having a tough time figuring out why Horo agreed to this, and why Lawrence is so confident. I guess I'm missing/forgetting something? If the loan money "vanishes" (the worst case), how long would this "pawn shop" keep Horo before selling her? It can't be long enough for Lawrence to get his money from Kumerson. At best, he could probably sell off the deed to the inn and everything else he has before someone else buys Horo. It's a puzzle to me, here's hoping it has a satisfying conclusion.
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