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Old 2009-09-15, 00:16   Link #1801
prometheus126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
That is what you wrote... hence the "sweeping generalization" remark. Replace "all" with "some" at each instance and "no" with "few" and you might have a better leg to stand on.

Dawkins can certainly be a jackass... but you misunderstand if you think anyone "worships" him. He commands some respect from the "secular humanists" because of his training, his research, and his command of information to use in discussion. In the end analysis though, he's a rather minor voice against the thundering squadrons of "defenders of the faith(s)".
I said I ALMOST labeled all Atheists as such, yet that would have been ignorance on my part and what I dislike about Richerd Dawkins and his ilk, that they make it seem that all Atheist are the same Militants, the same as I hated Jerry Falwell for making all christians seem the same. Also the remark towards taking out copies of "the god illusion" is exactly what it means. how can you argue about people listening blindly to a book written by men when you do the same? as I said, I follow no pamplet with answer blindly and I hope no man does.

I don't think anyone worships him but he is certainly trying to become the next Constantine it seems. Atheism is a growing beleif since it is easy to believe and you don't really need to invest any time into it (on paper though. my friend Christian Justice has invested alot of time into his veiws on athiesm.). it's easy to prove in a logical sense and it's hip and happening. the only thing is is that it's not collected, not focused and without a leader behind it all. I'm sure Richerd Dawkins knows this and Each and every day I feel a church of Athiesm will be founded under Richerd name.
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Old 2009-09-15, 01:36   Link #1802
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Atheism and theism can eventually be the same thing. I mean, Communism was around the notion of atheism and yet the Chinese worshiped Mao like a God and slaughted thousands of priests in Tibet in His Holy Name. Although it sounds like Man-worship, down to it, it wasn't any different than when some pope was commanding the believers to start a crusade just to prove their love to God.

Believers or non-believers better be seperated into volumes. Like, fanatics, plain believers and weak believers. Each volume reacts different to every case. ESPECIALLY the fanatics. Man, those guys are lunatics. They consider themselved saved and have no qualms to kick the shit out of others, just to save them too, by force, or even kill themselves and go to their creator as soon as they are ordered by His "representative" on Earth.

Still, fanatics are not something attributed only to religion. Budhists have no past of enforcing by violence and death others to convert. And some political party members can be far more dangerous than a hyped priest.
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Old 2009-09-15, 09:16   Link #1803
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There is a difference in self-reached atheism and state enforced atheism, just as there is a difference between religion believers and deists. The clue is to whether you are thinking are arriving to your own conclusions or just yapping and repeating what was taught to you.
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Old 2009-09-15, 10:15   Link #1804
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
yapping and repeating what was taught to you.
^ 99.99% of humanity?

If you need self-realization to accept anything, then WTF do they teach religion in schools and not philosophy?

Becauce it doesn't suit the status quo.

So, we need a sub forum or sumething about "did you chose your beliefs or where they enforced to you and you just follow them without thinking?"
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Old 2009-09-15, 13:22   Link #1805
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
If you need self-realization to accept anything, then WTF do they teach religion in schools and not philosophy?
Actually, at least at my school, you are free to choose between Religion and Ethics, and you can also take Philosophy (well, everyone but the students in my year, since we had a lack of teachers concerning this subject at that time).
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Old 2009-09-15, 14:09   Link #1806
Vexx
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
^ 99.99% of humanity?

If you need self-realization to accept anything, then WTF do they teach religion in schools and not philosophy?

Becauce it doesn't suit the status quo.

So, we need a sub forum or sumething about "did you chose your beliefs or where they enforced to you and you just follow them without thinking?"
That's a bit harsh.. more like "these are the beliefs I was simply raised with" and for some it led to - "later on, I saw enough inconsistencies I went looking elsewhere"

Self-examination of axioms requires a bit of energy... many people simply don't do it whether it be religious, political, or whatever. It apparently requires less energy to attack "the other"
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Old 2009-09-15, 14:34   Link #1807
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I was raised Episcopalian but I around the age of 12 I realized that religion made absolutely no sense whatsoever and became essentially agnostic. I stay away from the title atheist (although I Probably am closer to that) because I find that a lot of the self-proclaimed atheists act like jerks to anyone who has faith and it's not my place to ridicule someone else's beliefs. That being said I have no problem ripping the head off of some extremest trying to convert people or force their own values and beliefs onto other people.
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Old 2009-09-15, 16:53   Link #1808
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I don't see why people (indeed, many atheists themselves) see "militant" atheism as bad. Considering how many more loud-mouthed or violent religious people there are, and the people who believe them simply because they make more noise, "activist" atheism is a good thing.

Why is it called "militant" atheism anyway? How many people have atheists killed throughout history in the name of atheism? No, don't talk about the Communists, because their core belief is an economic system, and not "centered around atheism" as roriconfan stated. The Communists were more interested in setting up Communism itself as a belief system (or a cult in the case of Stalin, Mao, or Kim Jung Il) than actual atheism.

How many atheist openly advocate killing religious people, compared to how many religious people advocate killing "heretics" and "disbelievers," and how many countries actually do so?
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Old 2009-09-15, 17:19   Link #1809
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
How many atheist openly advocate killing religious people, compared to how many religious people advocate killing "heretics" and "disbelievers," and how many countries actually do so?
Basically none.... the whole idea of killing gets more problematic when you believe you're actually eternally extinguishing an existence. Aggressive, insecure "believers" who won't periodically re-examine their model of reality are a problem no matter what the basis.
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Old 2009-09-15, 17:44   Link #1810
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
How many atheist openly advocate killing religious people, compared to how many religious people advocate killing "heretics" and "disbelievers," and how many countries actually do so?
Religion or no religion. People who want to kill are going to kill if they want to. People are waging war just fine without using religion as a justification. People seem to refuse to believe not everyone has the same morals. The great majority of religious people are in no way advocating killing.

It's funny people are looking for things to blame for people dying. Religion seems to be easy thing to blame. It isn't that simple.
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Old 2009-09-15, 18:42   Link #1811
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Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Religion or no religion. People who want to kill are going to kill if they want to. People are waging war just fine without using religion as a justification. People seem to refuse to believe not everyone has the same morals. The great majority of religious people are in no way advocating killing.

It's funny people are looking for things to blame for people dying. Religion seems to be easy thing to blame. It isn't that simple.
My argument over the term "militant" seems to have gone off on a tangent, but I'll respond to one thing here: Jerusalem. Why would conflict over the so-called "Holy Land" have gone on for so long if it wasn't religious in nature? It's a small place in the middle of the desert. Rational people would have pulled out of such a violent, bloody piece of land.

I'll also repeat an argument I've made before: If people did not believe that God condones their actions (or made them a "dominant" race), would they be so willing to kill others? I believe that while religion is not a root cause, it provides an excuse for people to act, and that they would be more hesitant if they had no such justification.
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Old 2009-09-15, 19:15   Link #1812
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
My argument over the term "militant" seems to have gone off on a tangent, but I'll respond to one thing here: Jerusalem. Why would conflict over the so-called "Holy Land" have gone on for so long if it wasn't religious in nature? It's a small place in the middle of the desert. Rational people would have pulled out of such a violent, bloody piece of land.

I'll also repeat an argument I've made before: If people did not believe that God condones their actions (or made them a "dominant" race), would they be so willing to kill others? I believe that while religion is not a root cause, it provides an excuse for people to act, and that they would be more hesitant if they had no such justification.
You do realize if these people didn't have religion there wouldn't even rules they'd follow? Not to mention the only reason these religious people kill, because they follow certain preachers. The only reason these so called preachers can manipulate these people is because they started of in shitty position and they lack the knowledge to study their own religion properly. That religion supposedly kills isn't the fault of the religion, but of people abusing it for power. My point however these people would be manipulated anyhow even if the manipulators didn't make use of religion. Or did we all forget WWII? It's funny how people forgave Germany, but can't understand the situation other countries are in.

It's kinda sad how you look down on small land on a desert. It frightens me you can make that kind of statement. This so called holyland was their country for years till the Western countries came in and pretty much screwed it up for all and then fail to take responsibility for it.

People fail to notice in what kind of situation these people grow in and you think it's weird they'd rather follow the extremist than the peaceful way. When you got your back against the wall, it's hard to take the path of the pacifist. People who lived in peace all their lives have right to judge those who haven't.
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Old 2009-09-15, 19:22   Link #1813
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I'm Christian (C.O.G.I.C) and I don't agree with all of the Christian beliefs. Like for example, homosexuality is a sin and god doesn't like people who are like that (god I get mad when people say that). Homosexuality is a feeling towards people not a sin. That's why my mom and sisters are keeping a secret from my dad that my twin isn't straight. Otherwise, he would probably forget about her.
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Old 2009-09-15, 19:32   Link #1814
justsomeguy
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Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
You do realize if these people didn't have religion there wouldn't even rules they'd follow? Not to mention the only reason these religious people kill, because they follow certain preachers. The only reason these so called preachers can manipulate these people is because they started of in shitty position and they lack the knowledge to study their own religion properly. That religion supposedly kills isn't the fault of the religion, but of people abusing it for power. My point however these people would be manipulated anyhow even if the manipulators didn't make use of religion. Or did we all forget WWII? It's funny how people forgave Germany, but can't understand the situation other countries are in.
If that is the case, then I challenge you to show how preachers can manipulate people without religion. I also challenge your statement that religion provides rules. All social animals, yes even humans, have innate and learned rules of social conduct, with no need for religion. Religions' rules ("Thou shalt not kill") are so disregarded that they might as well not exist. Ironically, religious rules on diet and fasting seem to be taken more seriously by more people than the restriction against killing each other.
Quote:
It's kinda sad how you look down on small land on a desert. It frightens me you can make that kind of statement. This so called holyland was their country for years till the Western countries came in and pretty much screwed it up for all and then fail to take responsibility for it.
It was actually the Palestinians' land (referring to the Arabs who lived in the region), until the Europeans conquered it during the imperialism era. Then after WW2, they gave it to the Jews and put them in charge. If not for religious differences, they would have been able to live peacefully together there. There is also of course the religious discrimination that necessitated the founding of Israel as a "Jewish homeland."

You seem to be having an emotional reaction to my statement, so I think you've either misinterpreted me or have an attachment to Israel.
Quote:
People fail to notice in what kind of situation these people grow in and you think it's weird they'd rather follow the extremist than the peaceful way. When you got your back against the wall, it's hard to take the path of the pacifist. People who lived in peace all their lives have right to judge those who haven't.
Why not? They are acting irrationally, and their behavior is learned as children from the adults around them.
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Old 2009-09-15, 19:39   Link #1815
Vexx
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The Israel discussion is a serious derail to the discussion... all I will say is examine the resources of the land under contention and a lot of mysterious things become clear -- like water supplies and land that supports agriculture. Also view and control points for valley regions. The religious context is just a drum beat and there are nihilistic extremists on both sides.

Leaders (thugs) who want what someone else has will find something to get the peasants riled up - "we're better than others" religions are just rather easy to use. The topic is "what's your religion?" and some latitude for explaining *why* you hold those beliefs is assumed.
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Old 2009-09-15, 19:44   Link #1816
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You do realize if these people didn't have religion there wouldn't even rules they'd follow?
Are you saying they'd be lawless amoral people inclined to violence and conflict if they happened to be mostly secular/atheist/agnostic?

Quote:
Not to mention the only reason these religious people kill, because they follow certain preachers. The only reason these so called preachers can manipulate these people is because they started of in shitty position and they lack the knowledge to study their own religion properly. That religion supposedly kills isn't the fault of the religion, but of people abusing it for power.
Even if we assume this is the case, this would mean god or the people who were "channeling gods words" to the scriptures were obviously extremely shortsighted or completely moronical for allowing the scriptures to be so easy to "manipulate" by others in the first place. If the scriptures are supposed to be taken seriously, they should atleast be written in such a way as to minimize as much as possible the ability to "missread" or "missinterpret" them. If "God" or "Allah" were as great as he's made out to be, you'd think he would have wanted and ensured it would be made out that way.


EDIT: Sorry Vexx if this continued the derail, I didnt see your post untill after I submitted. I will leave it at this.
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Old 2009-09-15, 22:54   Link #1817
Edgewalker
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Look at this interesting vid...

Probably one of the most straightforward explanations I have seen for why you cant use faith to demean others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo&feature=sub
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Old 2009-09-16, 06:02   Link #1818
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
If that is the case, then I challenge you to show how preachers can manipulate people without religion. I also challenge your statement that religion provides rules. All social animals, yes even humans, have innate and learned rules of social conduct, with no need for religion. Religions' rules ("Thou shalt not kill") are so disregarded that they might as well not exist. Ironically, religious rules on diet and fasting seem to be taken more seriously by more people than the restriction against killing each other.
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Originally Posted by Icehawk View Post
Are you saying they'd be lawless amoral people inclined to violence and conflict if they happened to be mostly secular/atheist/agnostic
I mentioned WWII with a reason. Read up on how Hitler did it.
Don’t get me wrong the rules from the religion how they live to it doesn’t make the situation much better. At least it gives women some legal rights and slaves a chance at freedom. Think about it if you grew in the wartorn countries in the middle east. Do you honestly think you would have the same social conduct as you have now?
Is it the religions fault though that people disregard that rule? That’s like Hitler blaming the Jews for everything.
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
It was actually the Palestinians' land (referring to the Arabs who lived in the region), until the Europeans conquered it during the imperialism era. Then after WW2, they gave it to the Jews and put them in charge. If not for religious differences, they would have been able to live peacefully together there. There is also of course the religious discrimination that necessitated the founding of Israel as a "Jewish homeland."
You seem to be having an emotional reaction to my statement, so I think you've either misinterpreted me or have an attachment to Israel.
Right back at ya. Yeah I know. I think you misunderstood me, maybe I didn’t get my point over clear enough.
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Why not? They are acting irrationally, and their behavior is learned as children from the adults around them.
Let’s take Afganistan as an example. They have nothing, but other countries coming over and dicking around. It isn’t really safest nor a fun place to live in. Most of them live below basic living standard. Yet they have no real means to fight back. Do you expect them to just accept the situation? If Europe invaded America and China saved you, but China decided who gets in charge. Would you accept that situation? You however have no weapons to fight back. Then someone comes around with a story that if we attack China directly. The general public might force the Chinese government to mind their own business. In that situation the extreme measures make more sense then the peaceful measures.

People rather have a horrible leader they know, than someone who got power from an outsider. Rational? Hardly, but these are people who grew up under different circumstances. Not everyone has had education, means to study.

Is it weird the adults there teach their kids how they where treated? Yeah it’s easy for you to forgive your forefathers for their sins (like taking over America). You however have no intention in doing the right thing and give the country back. The current Indians however never forgot and still feels it’s and injustice done to them. Just, because it was a done in the past doesn’t make it okay. In the case of the middle-eastern countries it was pretty recent.
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Originally Posted by Icehawk View Post
Even if we assume this is the case, this would mean god or the people who were "channeling gods words" to the scriptures were obviously extremely shortsighted or completely moronical for allowing the scriptures to be so easy to "manipulate" by others in the first place. If the scriptures are supposed to be taken seriously, they should atleast be written in such a way as to minimize as much as possible the ability to "missread" or "missinterpret" them. If "God" or "Allah" were as great as he's made out to be, you'd think he would have wanted and ensured it would be made out that way.
Can’t talk about the bible, since I lack knowledge on the book.
The holy scriptures was given as guidance. It’s to the people if they choose to believe it or abuse it. If Allah(saw) wanted everyone to be a believer he would make it so, but that would take away our free will.
Some so called muslims over here seem to smoke during vesting, when I call them on it. They get mad. Yet in the eyes of others we are the same.
The Quran, is actually pretty straightforward on the important topics, like killing and such. You have to take the Quran as a whole, sadly people just pick and choose what they want. People also have the tendency to mix up culture with religion. The hadith doesn’t help much either it changed so much over time(not that it was accurate to begin with).

As an example. Women aren’t allowed to drive cars, is said to stem from Islamic Law. Honestly you need to be really creative to get that from the Quran.

Let’s get on topic now :P . A non believer believes that the world came into existence by chance, or simply doesn’t know. A believer simply chooses to believe it is done by a higher being. Why the second makes more sense to me is hard to say. It’s just the feeling I get. People are driven by emotions all the time. What I don’t get why I have to justify my religion. That people still 21st century still fail to see the difference between the individual and the group, is pretty sad tbh.
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Old 2009-09-16, 06:48   Link #1819
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Faith should be a personal thing. Trying to convince others is not justified, unless they attack you first.

Which comes to me, having faith as a way of life and not that different than philosophy or atheism. I also consider most theists and atheists to be agnostic, even if they don't accept it.

Also, believing in something better than you is not a bad thing. Theists want to improve by walking towards / along God while atheists base all their willpower on the ideals of a man freed of all propaganda and misconception. Both can be seen like the same goal using different approaches. Abuse comes when you try to enforce self-realization to others. You can't stick your hand in someone's mouth and pull out maturity or wisdom. These things take time and are mostly done on a personal level only. Discussion and dialogue can at best help someone but not force him to accept your ways.
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Old 2009-09-16, 07:01   Link #1820
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Faith should be a personal thing. Trying to convince others is not justified, unless they attack you first.

Which comes to me, having faith as a way of life and not that different than philosophy or atheism. I also consider most theists and atheists to be agnostic, even if they don't accept it.

Also, believing in something better than you is not a bad thing. Theists want to improve by walking towards / along God while atheists base all their willpower on the ideals of a man freed of all propaganda and misconception. Both can be seen like the same goal using different approaches. Abuse comes when you try to enforce self-realization to others. You can't stick your hand in someone's mouth and pull out maturity or wisdom. These things take time and are mostly done on a personal level only. Discussion and dialogue can at best help someone but not force him to accept your ways.
What about the discussion of convincing those with faith towards strong agnosticism? No, IMO, unlike "dreamers", its either because the factual strong agnostics have no need or does not see importance for "imaginations". or just a closed mind.
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