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Old 2009-09-07, 07:05   Link #2061
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
and about the rest of Ep 5
Spoiler for Ep 5:
Spoiler for ep5:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maho Momo View Post
That would break on of Knox's rules, which the game seems to follow. Only one or more of the characters shown at the beginning can be the culprit, I believe.
And that's one of the 17. (as Kinzo is dead and Erika is confirmed not to be the culprit)
That's correct, however, I wonder if a "mentioned" character could still work.
Because in that case you'd also have Ange, Maria's father, Asumu and Kinzo's wife in the equation.
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Old 2009-09-07, 10:05   Link #2062
theacefrehley
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So that idea that the cousins Rosa and Genji didn't actually die at that moment and died much later it isn't necessarily true. Well it "might" be true, but it might be true as it might be true that Battler killed everyone.
Wait a minute:

Since the stakes declared in red:

「*譲治は死後、遺体は一切、移動されていない!*」
;<アスモ

「*朱志香は死後、遺体は一切、移動されていない!*」
;<ベルゼ

「*真里亞は死後、遺体は一切、移動されていない!*」
;<マモン

「*楼座は死後、遺体は一切、移動されていない!*」
;<ベルフェ

「*源次は死後、遺体は一切、移動されていない!*」
;<サタン

「*蔵臼は死後、遺体は一切、移動されていない!*」
;<レヴィア

「*よって、遺体発見後に遺体が消失することはありえないッ!!
貴様の推理、遺体は金蔵が運び出したは、破綻する!*」
;<ルシファ


Automatically, you can conclude they were not dead.
And it was already stated there was not 'dolls' or fake corpses.
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Old 2009-09-07, 10:45   Link #2063
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Ah I forgot about that part XD

But if you can question what we have seen about the state of the corpses, nanjo's "autopsy" and all, then you could also question that the bodies didn't disappear at all. So how do you know which one is the fake scene?
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Old 2009-09-14, 08:24   Link #2064
sword5880
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Well I want to know something.. Is Bernkastel actually Rika? because in higurashi naku koro ni Rei Rika said in ep04 that "it is a time for me to give up being a witch... I must Return to being Furude Rika, rather then the witch Bernkastel" and if this is real then is Bernkastel who is in umineko no naku koro ni are past of Furude Rika or is she after the incident of Higurashi no naku koro ni? iam thinking that Bernkastel in umineko no naku koro ni is the past of Rika Furude in Higurashi no naku koro ni
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Old 2009-09-14, 09:49   Link #2065
Ssol
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Originally Posted by sword5880 View Post
Well I want to know something.. Is Bernkastel actually Rika? because in higurashi naku koro ni Rei Rika said in ep04 that "it is a time for me to give up being a witch... I must Return to being Furude Rika, rather then the witch Bernkastel" and if this is real then is Bernkastel who is in umineko no naku koro ni are past of Furude Rika or is she after the incident of Higurashi no naku koro ni? iam thinking that Bernkastel in umineko no naku koro ni is the past of Rika Furude in Higurashi no naku koro ni
Quick answer:
Higurashi's Rika and Umineko's Bernkastel are different.

For a detailed answer there are many theories, but read section 4 of the following page for the best theory so far:
http://animehistory.wordpress.com/20...ndom-comments/
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Old 2009-09-15, 00:12   Link #2066
Archer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Quick answer:
Higurashi's Rika and Umineko's Bernkastel are different.

For a detailed answer there are many theories, but read section 4 of the following page for the best theory so far:
http://animehistory.wordpress.com/20...ndom-comments/
That can't be considered the "best" theory if it's only taking in account Episode 1, regardless of your actual opinion on it.
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Old 2009-09-15, 00:21   Link #2067
Jan-Poo
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OMG! I never knew this famous character of a mystery TV series had a middle name!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Fletcher

This settles it! Jessica = Beatrice!!!!!!!
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Old 2009-09-15, 07:53   Link #2068
Kitsu
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She was my favorite detective when I was a child!!! (and yay she is currently airing in germany again) but OMG! Her middle name is Beatrice?!? So shocking!!!
Jessica=Beatrice it was meant from the beginning xDD

Being a tad more serious
In Ep 1 VN does Kumasawa see how Kanon pulls out the stake himself? I'm not sure but I think she doesn't, but in the manga she does. Could that be the hint Ryukishi meant? (if she didn't saw it in the VN) Cause seeing him pulling it out means that he in any case was wounded. (it was often theorizied that he just faked)
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Old 2009-09-15, 12:46   Link #2069
Ithekro
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Wait...doesn't that make Beatrice the detective? And thus by the rules not the culprit?
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Old 2009-09-15, 12:53   Link #2070
Jan-Poo
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Who said in red that Beatrice is the culprit?

@Kitsu : In the novel Kumasawa arrives just a second later after Kanon pulled the stake off his chest
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Old 2009-09-15, 18:10   Link #2071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
OMG! I never knew this famous character of a mystery TV series had a middle name!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Fletcher

This settles it! Jessica = Beatrice!!!!!!!
While I can understand somebody not knowing that her middle name is Beatrice, anybody who's at least a casual watcher should know that she has a middle name. Whenever mentioned as an author, she's "J. B. Fletcher".
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Old 2009-09-15, 21:04   Link #2072
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I guess I am less than a casual watcher, I have never seen one episode from start to end...
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Old 2009-09-16, 13:53   Link #2073
mizou
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from knox rules, the culpirit is one of the 18 characters at the begining
it's like this ?
another trap ? or that's mean that the culpirit is one of the family or the servants
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Old 2009-09-16, 13:59   Link #2074
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In theory yes, but what if people "mentioned" at the start are still viable culprits?

This would include

Asumu
Ange (yeah ok just for the sake of completeness XD)
Manon
Runon
Kawabata (although he wasn't named back then)
Beatrice (as a real person)
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Old 2009-09-16, 16:01   Link #2075
Renall
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I would be willing to be generous and say anyone introduced in the first four episodes is a viable culprit, although of course there are degrees to which they'd be acceptable choices (one of the 18 = very good, someone only mentioned in ep1 = so-so, someone from ep4-1998 or only mentioned in ep2-4 = kinda bad). My interpretation of the rule is something more along the lines of "Oh by the way, here's the killer." A person who is just quickly introduced and outed as the criminal.

Obviously, the killer can be staggered in introduction as the entire cast isn't revealed immediately (if it were, the first person we see would be the killer or something); the initial 18 people don't all get introduced until a third or so of the way through ep1, but obviously any one of them would be a perfectly acceptable selection.

I can't see one or more of the 18 (well, 17) not being ultimately the mastermind(s)/killer(s). It simply wouldn't be a very good revelation any other way. There's no way ryukishi would sacrifice the dramatic impact of revealing someone important as a villain by picking someone like Asumu or Kinzo's wife or Kawabata or another servant, people whose existence is somewhat important but who have had no presence in the story whatsoever (except in Kawabata's case, but his presence is incredibly minor).

We have to actually care about the killers' identities and motivations when they come to light. So even more than just not violating Knox, the story is bound to select an important character just so that the whole thing makes any sense as a story.
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Old 2009-09-16, 16:32   Link #2076
Jan-Poo
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I agree that right now one of the 17 is a lot more probable than anyone else.

But frankly, Battler was the detective on the first 4 episodes so he's also ruled out by the knox rules. And if you removed Maria who isn't realistically capable of performing a crime, you get to 15.

12 if you think genji kumasawa and nanjo aren't the culprits in any game. Anyway even if it's just for one game you still have one of the remaining 12 as a necessary serial murderer.

Unless there was never a killer at all...
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Old 2009-09-16, 16:38   Link #2077
Kamar
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Unless there was never a killer at all...
I can't remember. Have there ever been any red-confirmed deaths that couldn't be worked around with crap like "Kanon died as Kanon, but didn't die as a person" or whatever?
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Old 2009-09-16, 17:01   Link #2078
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the definitions of "died" and "killed" were never questioned. Although in ep5 the times of death have been questioned. Which means "even if you said they died, you didn't say when".
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Old 2009-09-16, 17:19   Link #2079
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
the definitions of "died" and "killed" were never questioned. Although in ep5 the times of death have been questioned. Which means "even if you said they died, you didn't say when".
When they were solving the epitaph they figured out that instead of literally "killing" the sacrifices chosen by the key it meant to eliminate certain characters.
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Old 2009-09-16, 17:36   Link #2080
Dlanor .A. Nox
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I was thinking about the epitaph as well maybe when it says separate the two who are close....I'm thinking it's a door or seal of some sort. And when they say At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key, maybe they mean certain locks or toggles? and At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close, hence the door thing. Just a train of thought I was having while looking at the epitaph....
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