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Old 2009-09-07, 23:05   Link #121
Apache Thunder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze View Post
Yuki looks and acts like an android, but is she really mechanical on the inside, kind of like a terminator? or fully organic?
Judging from the fight scene between Yuki and Ryoko in the Anime, the amount of blood she emits would lead me to believe that most or all of her is organic. (and the blood is red. Not some weird color like maybe hydrolic fluid color or anything. So it's normal blood that you see)

Her actual consciousness is probably not in the 4 dimensions as we know it, so the body is a normal human girl for intensive purposes. She simply manipulates her body in the same way she does the environment. If she needs to move fast she changes her body to move faster. If she wanted to fly, she could modify her body mass or directly change the gravity around her. But when she isn't doing anything special, her body is just that of a normal girl.


To further expand this, if you managed to "clone" Yuki's body through normal genetic science like nicking a piece of hair from her (that is, if she let you sample her DNA, would be hard to do this if she resisted ), that Yuki clone would grow up to be a normal human because it doesn't have a trans-dimensional consciousness controlling it.


If her consciousness was anything near that of a normal humen, she would have died from the first blow from Ryoko. But as you can see she doesn't really need her body to "exist".

How Ryoko was killed was not physical in nature. Her body literally dematerialized and what actually happened to her consciousness isn't known. Unless someone remembers the novels better then me and say for sure that she was actually "dead" for all intensive purposes. Also note that while her body was dematerializing she was able to still speak. In fact, she showed no (outward) signs of cognitive depletion as thus her speech was not slurred or distorted from the process. Which might show that she never actually "died". Just removed from the planet/galaxy/dimension. Who's to say she can't come back? Ya never know!

That's my theory anyway.
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Last edited by Apache Thunder; 2009-09-08 at 13:13.
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Old 2009-09-07, 23:39   Link #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apache Thunder View Post
Judging from the fight scene between Yuki and Ryoko in the Anime, the amount of blood she emits would lead me to believe that most or all of her is organic. (and the blood is red. Not some weird color like maybe hydrolic fluid color or anything. So it's normal blood that you see)

Her actual consciousness is probably not in the 4 dimensions as we know it, so the body is a normal human girl for intensive purposes. She simply manipulates her body in the same way she does the environment. If she needs to move fast she changes her body to move faster. If she wanted to fly, she could modify her body mass or directly change the gravity around her. But when she isn't doing anything special, her body is just that of a normal girl.


To further expand this, if you managed to "clone" Yuki's body through normal genetic science like nicking a piece of hair from her (that is, if she let you sample her DNA, would be hard to do this if she resisted ), that Yuki clone would grow up to be a normal human because it doesn't have a trans-dimensional consciousness controlling it.


If her consciousness was anything near that of a normal humen, she would have died from the first blow from Ryoko. But as you can see she doesn't really need her body to "exist".

How Ryoko was killed was not physical in nature. Her body literally dematerialized and what actually happened to her consciousness isn't known. Unless someone remembers the novels better then me and say for sure that she was actually "dead" for all intensive purposes. Also note that while her body was dematerializing she was able to still speak. In fact she showed no (outward) signs of cognitive depletion as thus her speech was not slurred or distorted from the process. Which might show that she never actually "died". Just removed from the planet/galaxy/dimension. Who's to say she can't come back? Ya never know!

That's my theory anyway.
Very nice thoughts!

I really like your approach to Yuki and Ryoko. It explains their often inexplicable nature quite nicely, I think.
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Old 2009-09-08, 07:21   Link #123
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Wow, nice analysis Apache-san

This gives me an idea. We know that Yuki's body was created 3 years ago, when the explosion of data happened and Haruhi came to DITE's attention. But, it is possible that Yuki's consciousness already exists before her body was created? Or is it more likely that her consciousness was created along with the body like a customized OS to go with a new computer?

Searching the novels, the only clue I've found is the short story that Yuki wrote that might be or might not be an autobiography... But, if we assume that it is autobiographical then Yuki already existed and might be older than the Earth itself. We can also assume that perhaps this is the first time that Yuki-san took on a physical form and it might explain her lack of knowledge in areas such as emotions since she was always a passive observer in her entire existence.

Though the first part have me confused, it seemed that Yuki have a temporary amnesia of what she is doing on Earth. And the conversation also seemed to imply that it was Yuki's own will that she was on this place and not her superiors...

"Weren't you thinking of going to xxxx?"

The dark eyed girl could easily have said weren't you suppose to be in xxxx or ordered to go to xxxx? But, instead to my eternal puzzlement it used the verb "thinking" which implied that Yuki's consciousness have previously existed to think of going to this place and further implies that Yuki may actually want to be in this place? Maybe Yuki-san volunteered for the mission? If this is Yuki's first physical body as heavily implied by the second part, then what motivation would Yuki have to want to go to xxx? This might explain how Yuki could be independent from DITE and explain how the interface is different from one another since the consciousness controlling them is unique.

Of course it is entirely possible that latter is also true that Yuki is truly created 3 years ago by DITE - body and all. And the first part is when Yuki landed on Earth and loading her programs so she is confused and needed reminding on where to go.

Grrr....I'm just on the first few lines and this is giving me a headache.....
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Old 2009-09-08, 09:10   Link #124
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Well as I see it, the DITE exists outside of time and space. So therefor the creation of Yuki is only 3 years when counted in our current plane of existance.

That is, 3 years ago she was created, but this could be very different in time span for her in her own plane of existence which was outside of time it self prior to her coming to earth. As you know, the DITE was unaffected by the E8 scandal. So 500+ years must not mean much to the DITE. (though Yuki would beg to differ. )

She didn't go into any detail into how she got created and such and it's possible that "data loss during transmission" might have occurred when she was trying to describe herself and the DITE to Kyon. So in fact what actually may have happened before she existed on earth might have been a bit complex for poor ol Kyon to understand. So she probably simplified a lot of what she said to her best ability. Which means she might have omitted certain details.

Also don't forget that she can "synchronize" with data of her future self. So the story she wrote may in fact be something she got from her future self. This assumes she collected this data prior to the Disappearance arc as I recall from then on she no longer allowed her past self to synchronize with her.

But then again that short story she wrote may be something she cooked up during the 500+ years she spent in the time loop. I don't remember what she wrote to well. It's been at least 2 or more years since I finished reading the novels.
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Last edited by Apache Thunder; 2009-09-08 at 11:42.
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Old 2009-09-08, 11:40   Link #125
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Thx... for the insight ... I forgot that DITE has a non-linear concept of time and Yuki-san can also synchronize with her future and past selves whenever she wants to.This makes our linear concept of time nearly useless sigh and anyway Yuki is already the oldest by virtue of endless eight by 500 years and some more...

But, I'm really interested if the consciousness of Yuki and any other interface existing prior their bodies... I think this will give as an idea of what is the DITE. If Yuki-san does not have an existing consciousness and is created specifically for the mission, then most likely the DITE is a collective hive mind. This is supported by that she began to gain individuality by being for once separated from the collective and the second part of the short story wherein she stated that she is part of a set, a single molecule of water vapor.

But, if Yuki as a consciousness existed prior even the conception of the mission or the event. Then DITE must be more of like the internet which allows the separate computer like Yuki to connect to each other. This would explain why there are factions within DITE since it is made up of differing individuals and not one big consciousness. The individuals would also have differing abilities from one another like a different types of computer - pcs, mainframes and supercomputers. This would then further explain why the interfaces are different to each other and might possibly have different agendas concerning Haruhi and even differing powers and abilities from each other. This also explains Yuki's independent action to DITE allowing her even to subvert its order and delete it from existence kinda like a lone computer crashing the net.
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Old 2009-09-08, 11:46   Link #126
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... Sorry to go off subject, but... adding the "-san" honorific to a given name looks weird.
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Old 2009-09-08, 11:52   Link #127
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The DITE is sorta similer to a ant colony. Though without a queen and much more intelligent. The DITE might have a queen typish leader of sorts, but we don't know enough about the DITE's organization of power to really know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
... Sorry to go off subject, but... adding the "-san" honorific to a given name looks weird.
lol. Yes. I think it sounds weird with non Japanese names in general. Though I'm not sure if the Chinese and other Asian cultures other then the Japanese use that naming system. I don't know know enough about the culture to really say for sure.
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Old 2009-09-08, 14:33   Link #128
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Hmmm. The idea that the DITE is like the internet with seperate computers interfaces on one huge network would explain in some ways the use of SQL as the language of choice and that Ryoko had her link terminated/deleted. Also would this make the Canopy Domain a seperate network that sometimes gets into the main DITE Internet, or just a network that uses a different language, making it difficult for the two to understand each other at all, and the best thing they have is babblefish to translate?
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Old 2009-09-08, 15:22   Link #129
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The Canopy Domain is essentially a different species from that of the DITE and is separate. Perhaps a sub-species but that's the closes they are in relation.

And remember the DITE and other data entities don't use language. They only use language for the interfaces on earth...As Yuki explained, the DITE (and supposedly others) couldn't communicate with humans directly, because humans have no way of communicating information without language. So I don't think the entities would rely on language to communicate with each other because only humans use language.
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Old 2009-09-08, 20:14   Link #130
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On language, I remember how Yuki explained to Kyon that before, the DITE didn't even have NAMES for things, and is something they recently adopted.
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Old 2009-09-09, 11:35   Link #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze View Post
Yuki looks and acts like an android, but is she really mechanical on the inside, kind of like a terminator? or fully organic?
That line rolled around in my brain for a while and eventually congealed into this:
Spoiler for length and off-topicness:

Back on topic, I see Yuki and the various other humanoid interfaces as approximations of human personality housed mostly in the wherever that the Data Overmind exists in, but connected to the bodies that have been created for that purpose. If the Data Overmind is seen as one big computer program, with various subroutines each handling their own processes, the humanoid interfaces are nested subroutines within those subroutines, with the express purpose of interfacing with the organic inhabitants of Earth and Haruhi in particular. When Ryoko was cut off from her interface, it was like a firewall cuttting off access of her subroutine from the larger data manipulation powers of the Data Overmind, making it easy for Yuki to then remove Ryoko's interface itself, and effectively toss her "subroutine" in the Recycle Bin.

As for when Yuki was created, I believe that she has existed in some form or fashion since the Data Overmind first gained sentience. Same with all the other interfaces, Ryoko included. But data entity consciousness and human consciousness are two completely different things, and that human portion of her existence has only been around for the three years (now four—or 598, however you want to count it) since her interface was created. And she's spent most of that time sitting in her empty apartment or reading books. Ryoko, on the other hand, interacted readily with other human beings, and (likely due to prodigious use of synchonization with her future—and thus more experienced—selves) developed a more human-like personality. I kind of get the feeling she was around on Earth before Yuki was, maybe as a kind of scout, observing humanity for clues to the Data Overmind's desired evolution (something it likely does on a number of sentient-occupied worlds), but having to take a backup position to the more competent (but less experienced in human existence) Yuki when she was created.
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Old 2009-09-09, 13:27   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Apache Thunder View Post
Judging from the fight scene between Yuki and Ryoko in the Anime, the amount of blood she emits would lead me to believe that most or all of her is organic. (and the blood is red. Not some weird color like maybe hydrolic fluid color or anything. So it's normal blood that you see)
Automatic transmission fluid (a kind of hydraulic fluid, incidentally) is also red. As is cranberry juice. Just because Yuki is full of red fluid does not mean that it is blood. Given that she can manufacture nanomachines to inject into a delicious Mikuru on-demand would suggest that she's a human-shaped swarm of sufficiently-advanced nanotechnology. She may have red internal fluid for the simple fact that skin is not completely opaque, and that if she had, say green fluids, her skin would take on an unmistakably bizarre greenish tint.

Quote:
Her actual consciousness is probably not in the 4 dimensions as we know it, so the body is a normal human girl for intensive purposes. She simply manipulates her body in the same way she does the environment. If she needs to move fast she changes her body to move faster. If she wanted to fly, she could modify her body mass or directly change the gravity around her. But when she isn't doing anything special, her body is just that of a normal girl.
Are you saying that Yuki is a sort of zombie? The wounds she sustains in the fight with Ryoko are all of the sort that give you a few seconds of conscious action before the blood pressure in your brain goes to zero on the account that the shredded remains of your heart aren't pumping anymore, and your lungs and chest cavity have filled with blood.

Quote:
How Ryoko was killed was not physical in nature. Her body literally dematerialized and what actually happened to her consciousness isn't known. Unless someone remembers the novels better then me and say for sure that she was actually "dead" for all intensive purposes. Also note that while her body was dematerializing she was able to still speak. In fact, she showed no (outward) signs of cognitive depletion as thus her speech was not slurred or distorted from the process. Which might show that she never actually "died". Just removed from the planet/galaxy/dimension. Who's to say she can't come back? Ya never know!

That's my theory anyway.
A minor nitpick, but it's "intents and purposes." Kyon speculates on the fate of Ryoko
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-09-09, 14:10   Link #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMT View Post
Automatic transmission fluid (a kind of hydraulic fluid, incidentally) is also red. As is cranberry juice. Just because Yuki is full of red fluid does not mean that it is blood. Given that she can manufacture nanomachines to inject into a delicious Mikuru on-demand would suggest that she's a human-shaped swarm of sufficiently-advanced nanotechnology. She may have red internal fluid for the simple fact that skin is not completely opaque, and that if she had, say green fluids, her skin would take on an unmistakably bizarre greenish tint.
Nanomachines is something she probably created on the spot. As to my theory, she could have easily modified her teeth to include some form of nanomachine factory type gland or device. As I said, she could possibly modify her body to certain specs depending on the situation.

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Are you saying that Yuki is a sort of zombie? The wounds she sustains in the fight with Ryoko are all of the sort that give you a few seconds of conscious action before the blood pressure in your brain goes to zero on the account that the shredded remains of your heart aren't pumping anymore, and your lungs and chest cavity have filled with blood.
Well I'm not saying she's a zombie. Zombies are usually depicted as walking corpses of sorts. Yuki is far from that. Her body might not be full organic, if this is the case, it wouldn't take the form of any android or machanical structure and most likely be that her body could be comprised entirely of nanomachines if she wasn't organic. Any physical injury she sustains wouldn't effect her ability to exist, because most likely her "brain" isn't organic.

But I believe their bodies are organic because it blends in better with normal humans. They don't want to stick out by setting off metal detectors at Airports every time they need to use a airplane or enter a government building.

But this is beside the point. If their consciousness exists in a dimension beyond that of what we can perceive, then their interfaces are merely their way to interact with the environment in way that humans could perceive and understand. They could come to earth without a interface at all, but they wouldn't be able to communicate with humans and humans probably wouldn't even tell they were here at all if that was the case.

Yuki was able to remember all the E8 recursions. So it's clear her "brain" isn't anywhere close to that of a normal human one. This also adds to the theory that her actual consciousness exists out side of time and the 4 dimensions we know of. Because otherwise she would not have been able to remember it. It can be inferred by the way she shows boredem that she personally remembers the recursions and not simply the DITE sending the data of the recursions to her. Because if that was the case, she wouldn't show as much boredom in the E8 scandal.

This sorta can be compared to the Matrix movies. Think of the physical universe/Earth as the Matrix and the plane that the DITE exists in as the "real world". So that means their interfaces are merely avatars of their personality. This could also mean that their bodies are made of nothing but data. So what her "body" is actually made of is beyond human perception itself. It analogy fits pretty well actually. Because the DITE and other entities can change the environment in very similer ways that the Agents from the Matrix can. Only unlike the matrix, the DITE and others can't create things from from nothing. As Yuki said, they can't create data, only change existing data.

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A minor nitpick, but it's "intents and purposes." Kyon speculates on the fate of Ryoko
Well my memory is a bit fuzzy on novel details and it has been awhile since I've seen the original 2006 episodes.
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Old 2009-09-09, 17:06   Link #134
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Spoiler for length and off-topicness:
That's awesome. I'd love to see a 4-koma of that or something, the only that would be more hilarious is the same scene with Mikuru stammering all the way.
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Old 2009-09-16, 18:09   Link #135
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Yuki: Kyon...
Kyon: Yes, Nagato?
Yuki: Could you put a nightlight in my room?
Kyon: Why?
Yuki: I do not know how to set one up myself... and... I am scared of the dark.
Kyon: ... sure thing, Nagato. Let's go.
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Old 2009-09-16, 18:15   Link #136
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It would be cute...but Yuki never calls Kyon "Kyon". All know instances have referred to him in the second person..."you".

Now I know she must call him something if she speaks of him to someone else. And considering that she calls everyone else by there full given name...she logically would do the same with Kyon.

Has she ever referred to anyone that doesn't have a full given name?
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Old 2009-09-16, 20:46   Link #137
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Has she ever referred to anyone that doesn't have a full given name?
I beleive not. Exactly because they don't have a first name and she can only speak of then by their full names.

Also, Yuki don't tal about unimportant people. What would she say about, dunno, Taniguchi?
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Old 2009-09-16, 20:54   Link #138
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"Such an interesting person"?
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Old 2009-09-16, 22:36   Link #139
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It would be cute...but Yuki never calls Kyon "Kyon". All know instances have referred to him in the second person..."you".
Yep, Yuki always uses the word "anata" when talking to Kyon, while Haruhi just calls him "Kyon" and uses the word "anta" (which is more informal).
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Old 2009-09-16, 22:41   Link #140
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"Such an interesting person"?
I searched high and low on Baka-Tsuki for that quote, but have yet to find it.

Volume and chapter #'s, plz.

Not that I'm saying you're lying. Oh, no. Not at all.

I've actually been looking for that quote for quite some time now in a very Captian Ahab-like fashion.

Yarr.
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