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Old 2009-09-16, 04:48   Link #61
MakubeX2
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
It kinda sadden me that more than a year after TDK aired, there has been no plan revealed so far to develop the Joker from a cunning trickster mocking type of villian to a truly psychopathic muderous clown in the animation. Which I believe the mainstream audience is more than ready for after Ledger's now classic performance.

I can understand that there are concern over how it will affect the minds of younger viewers. But there are ways to mask some of the more controvesial elements as shown below from a recent Joker-centric comic with explanation lifted from another forum :-

Quote:
Just to recap: a thug named Jonny Frost drives Harley and the Joker to a bank, because the Joker has no funds. The Joker gets out of the car and heads into the bank. A few minutes later, he walks back, with a duffel bag full of cash and a photo of the bank president's daughter.

My original interpretation of the scene was that the Joker used the picture to threaten the bank president, who handed over the cash, for fear of this mad man killing his child. But that doesn't really jive with the dialogue and seems a bit...random.

So my current theory: The Joker decided to have a little "fun" with the bank president and made him masturbate all over a picture of his own daughter.

It's sick and twisted, but in line with this interpretation of the Joker (doing sick and nasty things that he thinks is funny, but nobody else necessarily would - look at the rape scene later on, for example. A more tame example of his sexual humor would be the "rabbit" joke earlier in the book).

Now let me show you why I think this is what happened. This is the first close-up of the photograph:



As you can see, there's a prominent blood stain. But what I missed (and didn't catch until many months later) are the white droplets on the photograph as well. You can see the largest is on the bottom-left corner. There's another by the girl's knee, and one final smaller one at the bottom of the photograph, by her thigh.

The Joker also holds the photograph in his fingers like it's disgusting or delicate.

Here's the next frame:



As you can see, the big white gob in the bottom left corner has turned red. But the white droplets by the knee and thigh remain, and a new white droplet has appeared by the girl's armpit.

Finally, in the next frame, Jonny Frost holds the picture, shocked. Most interesting is the way he holds it in his fingers - like the Joker (but even more so), he doesn't want to be touching it.

I believe these white droplets are semen, and that the Joker played his own, sick twisted joke - made the bank president masturbate, not only at the whim of a crazy psycho who could very likely kill you, but also all over a picture of his child (I don't know how he could do it under that kind of pressure, but I guess it was that or his life!)

This then explains the way Jonny holds the picture, disgustingly, like it's a jizz rag (is there a better term for it? I apologize if my terminology is a bit gross - I'm not posting this for shock value or anything). If it was just blood on the picture, that'd be kind of gross, but I don't think this kind of physical response would be justified for just blood - these are violent criminals, blood isn't going to be enough to shock them. It takes something even more revolting to really make them feel icky.

This also goes in line with the next couple of lines of dialogue:

"Birds and bees, honey?" (an obvious sexual reference)

"I dig driving people, Jonny" (the Joker "drove" the Bank Manager)



Of course, this begs the question - what's with the blood?

One might assume that the white spots were just missed by the artist, and that they should've been filled in with red. But I don't think the artists would make a mistake like that (especially given the supporting evidence in dialog that this is supposed to be sexual imagery). Additionally, the white droplets are shaded, indicating that the inker consciously made them white, rather than forgetting to fill in with red.

Furthermore, the Joker states that "The alarm wasn't tripped, and nobody died." I get the feeling that the Joker didn't mutilate anyone (at least, not the Bank President - that would "spoil" the joke). Rather, I think the blood is there precisely so that you'd miss the semen spots without a very close reading and analysis.

In other words, I think the blood is a red herring (no pun intended), meant to let the true nature of the scene slip by the editors at DC. This isn't a Vertigo comic, and the cover doesn't indicate that the book is for "mature readers" (though I think it should) - so I think there's no way the editors at DC would let this kind of thing slip by knowingly. But the blood is such a distraction that it's incredibly easy to believe they'd miss the white spots (I know I did, and I'm willing to bet most others did as well).

(To be honest, I'm not even sure a Vertigo comic would've been allowed to include this - this is probably the most disgusting thing I've ever seen in a comic)

Anyway, that's my theory and supporting evidence. I checked the internet to see if anyone else had come up with this (or an alternative theory), but didn't really find anything. I'm curious as to what you think - does the evidence support the theory? Do you believe it?

If not, what really happened?
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Old 2009-09-16, 10:11   Link #62
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjiharima View Post
Question uses more of the detective work like solving a puzzle, while Batman's obsession to hunt down the criminals he'll go to the line and use any means possible the only line he doesn't draw is killing people.
Is good to note also, that while Question is hevely based on Investigating information and connecting dots, Batman Abbility as detective doesn’t stop there, Batman is a Criminologist and is adept to Forensics, as well as been a master of disguise amongst other attributes that make him what he is, this is what makes Bat-Man the world Greatest Detective.


To Be honest I saw JLA just because of Bat-Man and Flash, some memorable Quotes from both of them, Batman Have a Sarcastic Humor while Flash just Funny as hell in the series. There is Chapter in Unlimited where Lex and Flash changes body, this is one of the funniest episodes ever!
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Old 2009-09-16, 11:22   Link #63
kenjiharima
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Is good to note also, that while Question is hevely based on Investigating information and connecting dots, Batman Abbility as detective doesn’t stop there, Batman is a Criminologist and is adept to Forensics, as well as been a master of disguise amongst other attributes that make him what he is, this is what makes Bat-Man the world Greatest Detective.


To Be honest I saw JLA just because of Bat-Man and Flash, some memorable Quotes from both of them, Batman Have a Sarcastic Humor while Flash just Funny as hell in the series. There is Chapter in Unlimited where Lex and Flash changes body, this is one of the funniest episodes ever!
Good to note those points on Batman, that said it sets him above all the rest of the DC heroes in investigations.

lol! I remembered that episode. Lex in Flashes body was eating while dodging fire from the JL guys. Also good thing to note that Lex/Brainiac fused was defeated by flash, seeing naked Lex was a ROTFL on my case. They didn't show a butt crack even in the DVD's when Lex was naked, truly rated G.
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Old 2009-09-16, 12:32   Link #64
Dilla
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I just discovered that Justice League + Unlimited will be released together in their's entirety in a hugh 15-disc boxset for only $90.00(at Best Buy) on November 11.

It's going on top of my 'DVDs to Buy' list.
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Old 2009-09-16, 19:17   Link #65
BanishingBook
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Whoa Makubex that was really long, it could have been a blog post for a nicer, cleaner read though.
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Old 2009-09-17, 02:20   Link #66
Albafica
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About the Joker, well Animation and Movie are a bit differents. I don't think people are ready for that because perhaps people thinks that Cartoon=kids. And there is a lot of censure in USA on cartoon no?
The development about what Joker did to the bank president is a bit... disgusting .

I will finish Justice League soon (need to watch Season 5 ), what I must watch after JL (a show as good as this one)? Fantastic four? Finish Wolverine and the X-men? Spider-man Unlimited? DC/Marvel movie?
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Old 2009-09-17, 02:41   Link #67
Dilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albafica View Post
About the Joker, well Animation and Movie are a bit differents. I don't think people are ready for that because perhaps people thinks that Cartoon=kids. And there is a lot of censure in USA on cartoon no?
The development about what Joker did to the bank president is a bit... disgusting .
It depends on the network, a channel like Cartoon Network wouldn't allow that. The only cable channel that would fit would be Spike TV, or maybe Adult Swim(but AS doesn't really show stuff like that anymore. Like what was stated already, it's not that DC can't do it, it's more that they won't do it.

And actually, there were times where Joker's more sadistic side were hinted.
Spoiler:


That's honestly the farthest they'll go in terms of that content in my opinion.

As for recommendations, there's been a whole lot of movies realeased for DC and Marvel. Have you seen Justice League: A New Frontier? It's not in the same universe that the series take place, it has a classic look. And it takes place in the 50s. It was even nominated for an Emmy Award.



Have you seen the old Batman: TAS movie, Mask of the Phantasm? It's a classic. What about Return of the Joker from the Batman Beyond Universe? Superman: Doomsday also recieved positive reviews(but you said you weren't much of a fan of Superman so. . .).

The Hal Jordan version of Green Lantern also has a movie out called Green Lantern: First Flight that described his origins. To most people, it would just be another retelling, but you, it might be good. I haven't seen it.



I haven't really watched the Fantastic Four, so I can't say about that. There's old 1994-1996 one, which I assume is the one that most people will recommend, and there was one that started 3 years ago that's called Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes. I saw a few episodes and didn't think was bad, though I'm not one to judge since i was never really a fan. The animation is really. . .bright.

Spoiler for Fantastic Four:


I'm going to leave the Ultimate Avengers movie to Kenjiharima.

Last edited by Dilla; 2009-09-17 at 03:02.
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Old 2009-09-17, 08:07   Link #68
kenjiharima
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Uncensored

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Old 2009-09-17, 12:10   Link #69
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albafica View Post
I will finish Justice League soon (need to watch Season 5 ), what I must watch after JL (a show as good as this one)? Fantastic four? Finish Wolverine and the X-men? Spider-man Unlimited? DC/Marvel movie?

The only show that is as good as JL is Batman animated series, after that you will have many superheroe series with great Quality, but they are not going to be as good as Batman and JL.

and Dilla, thats right, the F4 series that you would recomend is the one from the 90's, the most recent one Im not sure about it.
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Old 2009-09-17, 17:09   Link #70
BanishingBook
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^ - same here. Don't go for the anime upgrade.
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Old 2009-09-17, 20:23   Link #71
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Is good to note also, that while Question is hevely based on Investigating information and connecting dots, Batman Abbility as detective doesn’t stop there, Batman is a Criminologist and is adept to Forensics, as well as been a master of disguise amongst other attributes that make him what he is, this is what makes Bat-Man the world Greatest Detective.
I would assume he is proficient in those areas as well. If you think about it, while Batman is the reputed best detective (and I'm not necessarily disputing that), the Question has only that job. He focuses solely on that, whereas Batman has muscle and fighting to deal with. This might be why we see Batman relegating some detective duties to Question in JLU. Don't get me wrong, Batman is my favorite DC hero, I just raise an eyebrow to unabashedly ranking him above a character entirely dedicated to questioning things in solving mysteries.

If you haven't watched the 90's Spider-Man, that is very high quality (JL and 90's Batman level) as well.

That Hulk movie looks awesome, that comic series was exceptional. Hulk and Spider-Man are my favorite Marvel heroes and I would have to agree Marvel is better than DC overall, though DC has had better animated series.
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Old 2009-09-18, 08:47   Link #72
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I would assume he is proficient in those areas as well.
Actually He isn’t.

Quote:
If you think about it, while Batman is the reputed best detective (and I'm not necessarily disputing that), the Question has only that job. He focuses solely on that, whereas Batman has muscle and fighting to deal with. This might be why we see Batman relegating some detective duties to Question in JLU. Don't get me wrong, Batman is my favorite DC hero, I just raise an eyebrow to unabashedly ranking him above a character entirely dedicated to questioning things in solving mysteries.
Well, I understand your concern, but there is nothing more to it, Bat-Man detective skills are better than Question, is just that in this case Bat-Man is a character that comes and goes to the JL (due to his job in Gotham), this is the main reason why he put Question on this particular task. Batman could had very well reached to the same conclusion as question, even better, as Question was paranoid (this is a fatal flaw while been a detective) with Superman over what he saw in the tape.

At the end, the reputation exist because he is the best Detective, as like Question there are many as good detectives as Him, like Oracle, Dick Grayson (Yes he is) and The Riddler.


Quote:
If you haven't watched the 90's Spider-Man, that is very high quality (JL and 90's Batman level) as well.
I disagree, while SpiderMan TAS was a great anime, and one of my favorite, it does not have the same level of Quality as this two series, I do give you that the series had some episodes that did had the same quality as JL or Batman, but not all of them.
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Old 2009-09-18, 09:19   Link #73
Albafica
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Yeah there are some violent moments in Batman, but not as it is in some comics like Killing Joke for exemple. It's not so "dark". Oh and I read that comics had a bad image in USA before, due to a (idiot) psychologist or something like that.

I just finish Justice League Unlimited: awesome serie but Justice League is better in my opinion. So the last episode was... a Darkseid vs Superman again... A bit boring . But Luthor is dead? I would like to know if Shayera would go with Stewart!
"We let you 5 minutes"

I already watched Batman (everything, exept the last season of The Batman), Spider-man (90' serie and Spectacular Spider-man; I don't watch Unlimited yet), Superman (everything except movie), X-men (everything except some episode of the last serie).

I didn't watch JL New frontier yet, I think I will try it. But a simple movie is a bit short... I want an important serie like Justice League, Batman, Superman. Perhaps I will try the old Fantastic Four (if it's out in France ) but it's not a bit too old?

Quote:
That Hulk movie looks awesome, that comic series was exceptional. Hulk and Spider-Man are my favorite Marvel heroes and I would have to agree Marvel is better than DC overall, though DC has had better animated series.
How can you like this green man??!!! I can't understand that!
Well it's because I don't read a comics of Hulk...perhaps.



The hero of Justice League is Batman .
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Old 2009-09-19, 11:36   Link #74
Albafica
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Ok I just watch WonderWoman movie animation, pretty awesome! Fuc*ing epic!
If you haven't watch it, I recommend it! This movie is amazing, from the begining to the end!

The animation is excellent, fights are really good, characters are cool (the man ), the soundtrack is nice, landscapes are beautiful, the story is interesting (well I don't know nothing about WonderWoman at begining) and sometimes it's funny!

Hey this DC Movie Animation is great, I will try others movie like Green Lantern or Doomsday! Oh and I see that there will be a Superman/Batman movie, awesome!

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Old 2009-09-19, 17:36   Link #75
BanishingBook
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Might I remind me about Steve Rogers and the Golden Lasso: "Your daughter has a nice rack."

And he is damn right about it!
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Old 2009-09-20, 11:54   Link #76
kenjiharima
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Quote:
I'm going to leave the Ultimate Avengers movie to Kenjiharima.
Ok then...

DAMN YOU CAPTAIN AMERICA!!!

Movie1


I got this on DVD and yes, the Avengers team is no match for the HULK!!! That's the REAL great scene here. When the Hulk comes after the avengers. It's about Captain America's origin and some aliens.

Movie2


About Black Panter and Ironman finally wearing the War Machine armor.

Young Avengers.



Face Palm....This should have been a Hulk movie instead....Ultron was no match, when the Hulk raged after getting teased. Like the storyline, thought the new heroes are hard to accept...At least The Hulk and Ironman is there.
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Old 2009-09-21, 04:48   Link #77
Albafica
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I watch some DC and Marvel movies:

-Superman Doomsday => Not bad! I don't like Doomsday but the story is not focused on him (only the first part). The Death of Superman was sad .

-Green Lantern: first flight => A very good movie, good animation. Hal Jordan is a cool character but I don't understand why he became all green at the end . There are some epic moments and the soundtrack is great.

Well my best DC movie remains WonderWoman which is incredible in every aspects.

In Marvel movie, i watch Ultimate Avengers and it's not really good. DC movie are far better than this one. We can see Ironman, Hulk (I don't like him ), Captain America, Thor but... the story isn't so interesting, and characters are a bit boring in my opinion.

I took Dr Strange movie too, I will watch it later, I don't know nothing about this character.
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Old 2009-09-21, 05:21   Link #78
kenjiharima
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The only interesting movie character animation that Marvel brings were Ironman, Hulk and Spiderman. Some of the other characters are interesting, but didn't really had that appeal like Black Panther in Avengers movie2. I'd rather have 2 Ironmen Warmachine and Ironman in a movie in the ultimate cartoons, but they're gonna be in Live Action in 2010!!!

DC imho since the 60's and 70's gave the better animation than marvel. Though Marvel has a large array of heroes to promote in there side. Unlike DC which only composed of Superman, Batman and WonderWoman. Green Lantern comes 4th and Flash 5th.
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Old 2009-09-21, 17:38   Link #79
Dilla
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Dude, Justice League: The New Frontier!

Also Batman/Superman: Public Enemies is being released on September 29 and Justice League: Crisis on the Two Earths is to be released somewhere around early 2010.


Last edited by Dilla; 2009-09-21 at 22:27.
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Old 2009-09-21, 21:47   Link #80
kenjiharima
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DAMN!!! Iam so getting the 2 dvd special.
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