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View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 37 20.67%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 26.26%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 41 22.91%
7 out of 10 : Good 27 15.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 18 10.06%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 1.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.12%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 1.12%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.12%
Voters: 179. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-16, 17:16   Link #361
Sugetsu
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Ok... After watching the first 11 episodes and never played the game before I can't understand why so many people like this anime. I admit the gore, the violence and the fan-service are fun. However the plot is very weak. Here is why:

The witch is the equivalent of a God, everyone including Batter is just a toy, she and the other witches are so bored that they invented the twisted game of recreating the a world over and over in which people die time and time again with the sole objective to make the ever stubborn Batter acknowledge that magic exists. I could accept that, but the plot becomes utterly illogical and none sense when Batter himself witnesses all the magic that the witch does in front of him, to the point of being able to see that she is the one allowing him to live and that she could squash him like a bug on a whim, yet he tries to act cool in front her and he keeps insisting that the earth is flat. The only thing that is keeping Batter alive is the fact that the witch has a HUGE ego and she won't give up until this incredibly stupid guy realizes that she and her magic are real.

Can an anime be any more retarded than this? Or am I not seeing something REALLY important in the storyline that makes this anime utterly brilliant?

I would apreaciate it if someone could explain to me what makes this anime so fascinating to the point where it is almost as popular as bleach and naruto with the animesuki community.

Thank you.
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Old 2009-09-16, 17:26   Link #362
MarthX
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I could say a lot of things but instead I'll quote something chronotrig said.

Quote:
If you think that those scenes are proof that magic exists, then I'm afraid to say it's not that easy. This is Ryuukishi we're talking about here. If you watch Higurashi, you'll see that he never makes the final answer to a puzzle obvious. So, turn the chessboard over on Ryuukishi (that's what he wants you to do). Why is he showing us something that seems to be the obvious truth...in what's supposed to be a puzzle-filled series? You can bet there's a good reason.
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Old 2009-09-16, 17:38   Link #363
June 1983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Ok... After watching the first 11 episodes and never played the game before I can't understand why so many people like this anime. I admit the gore, the violence and the fan-service are fun. However the plot is very weak. Here is why:

The witch is the equivalent of a God, everyone including Batter is just a toy, she and the other witches are so bored that they invented the twisted game of recreating the a world over and over in which people die time and time again with the sole objective to make the ever stubborn Batter acknowledge that magic exists. I could accept that, but the plot becomes utterly illogical and none sense when Batter himself witnesses all the magic that the witch does in front of him, to the point of being able to see that she is the one allowing him to live and that she could squash him like a bug on a whim, yet he tries to act cool in front her and he keeps insisting that the earth is flat. The only thing that is keeping Batter alive is the fact that the witch has a HUGE ego and she won't give up until this incredibly stupid guy realizes that she and her magic are real.

Can an anime be any more retarded than this? Or am I not seeing something REALLY important in the storyline that makes this anime utterly brilliant?

I would apreaciate it if someone could explain to me what makes this anime so fascinating to the point where it is almost as popular as bleach and naruto with the animesuki community.

Thank you.
This has been explained to people lots and lots of times in this forum, but I'll give it a go.

1) Not everything we see is necessarily what happened. If the witch isn't the murderer, then the magical scenes we see on the gameboard (in other words, in the Real-World), are illusions. That doesn't mean those scenes are worthless, but rather you should consider them to be only metaphorical. They give you clues about what might really be happening, the real truth which we aren't allowed see.

2) Battler's objective is to prove that a witch didn't commit the murders with magic in the Real-World. Therefore, magic performed in the afterlife/the Meta-World/Purgatorio does not contradict the contention that magic doesn't exist in the Real-World, or that the perpetrator isn't a witch. A person can belief in the afterlife or the supernatural on another plane of existence without believing that it exists in reality. That is where Meta-Battler is situated: he knows he has died. He knows he's on some other plane. He knows that he is observing different realities and that Beatrice (or somebody) is showing him a magical version of events).

3) With each game that concludes in a "bad end", the magical "corruption" can be said to increase. More and more magical things and beings are appearing, because Beatrice is gaining strength. That doesn't necessarily mean that the magical explanation becomes more and more airtight -- in fact, most people would say it becomes more and more sloppy.

4) Magic might exist in Umineko, but whether it's the tool used in the murders or it really works the way Beato claims it does is the main question of the story.

The mystery only becomes an open-and-shut case in favor of magic if, as Battler says, you stop thinking. There are MANY, MANY holes in the anti-mystery argument if you look for them.

To flip the chessboard around, too, think about the story a different way. Instead of framing the story as "Battler is trying to prove that Beatrice isn't a witch and the murderer" think of it as "Beatrice is trying to convince Battler that she is a witch and the murderer." Which leads you to the question of why? The magical explanation is "because she needs everyone to believe in order to open up the door to the Golden Land." But if you are arguing from a mystery standpoint, then everything gets a lot more complicated and interesting. Why on earth might Beatrice want to be framed as the murderer? What is going on?

In the end, Umineko is more about what ISN'T being said and shown than about what is readily apparent.

I also recommend reading Ryukishi's "Anti-Fantasy vs Anti-Mystery" TIP which was posted in one of the anime threads recently I think.
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Old 2009-09-16, 17:45   Link #364
Dlanor .A. Nox
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For me the point is finding a way of denying her magic and flash in-game rather than all that stuff what happens after the main parts of the story. Trying to find the true culprit and not rely on that old "a wizard did it" crap. There are alot of theories and views constructing your own based on evidence provided makes it fun and utterly brain bending.

EDIT: Although June makes a really fantastic point lol.
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Old 2009-09-16, 18:18   Link #365
-Sho-
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Well , Battler have a long way to resolve this mystery . He should call Conan to help him
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Old 2009-09-16, 20:35   Link #366
jeroz
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Originally Posted by -Sho- View Post
Well , Battler have a long way to resolve this mystery . He should call Conan to help him
maybe Conan is already on the island, that would explain all those mysterious deaths. After all, he's notorious for bring death wherever he goes.
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Old 2009-09-17, 08:52   Link #367
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Or am I not seeing something REALLY important in the storyline that makes this anime utterly brilliant?
You wont find any better explanation in anime since its as bad as it seems. VN is most of the time about the same but there is a lot more explanations that makes the plot more understandable and much more enjoyable.
There is lot of places where you will think "What the hell am I reading? Thats nonsense, this is plothole like pacific ocean." Only to read next scene that will explain just enough to make you realise that its not a plothole but plot device. Which is exactyl why i like Umineko so much.
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Old 2009-09-17, 23:16   Link #368
Sugetsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by June 1983 View Post
This has been explained to people lots and lots of times in this forum, but I'll give it a go.

1) Not everything we see is necessarily what happened. If the witch isn't the murderer, then the magical scenes we see on the gameboard (in other words, in the Real-World), are illusions. That doesn't mean those scenes are worthless, but rather you should consider them to be only metaphorical. They give you clues about what might really be happening, the real truth which we aren't allowed see.

2) Battler's objective is to prove that a witch didn't commit the murders with magic in the Real-World. Therefore, magic performed in the afterlife/the Meta-World/Purgatorio does not contradict the contention that magic doesn't exist in the Real-World, or that the perpetrator isn't a witch. A person can belief in the afterlife or the supernatural on another plane of existence without believing that it exists in reality. That is where Meta-Battler is situated: he knows he has died. He knows he's on some other plane. He knows that he is observing different realities and that Beatrice (or somebody) is showing him a magical version of events).

3) With each game that concludes in a "bad end", the magical "corruption" can be said to increase. More and more magical things and beings are appearing, because Beatrice is gaining strength. That doesn't necessarily mean that the magical explanation becomes more and more airtight -- in fact, most people would say it becomes more and more sloppy.

4) Magic might exist in Umineko, but whether it's the tool used in the murders or it really works the way Beato claims it does is the main question of the story.

The mystery only becomes an open-and-shut case in favor of magic if, as Battler says, you stop thinking. There are MANY, MANY holes in the anti-mystery argument if you look for them.

To flip the chessboard around, too, think about the story a different way. Instead of framing the story as "Battler is trying to prove that Beatrice isn't a witch and the murderer" think of it as "Beatrice is trying to convince Battler that she is a witch and the murderer." Which leads you to the question of why? The magical explanation is "because she needs everyone to believe in order to open up the door to the Golden Land." But if you are arguing from a mystery standpoint, then everything gets a lot more complicated and interesting. Why on earth might Beatrice want to be framed as the murderer? What is going on?

In the end, Umineko is more about what ISN'T being said and shown than about what is readily apparent.

I also recommend reading Ryukishi's "Anti-Fantasy vs Anti-Mystery" TIP which was posted in one of the anime threads recently I think.

Thanks for the response. The thing is, it hasn't been implied that Battler knows that he is dead and is already on some other plane of existence, if he was aware of it, it would be the same as acknowledging the supernatural and thus Beatrice's magic, perhaps the subs I watched didn't have an accurate translation.

How exactly is Beatrice supposed to explain to Battler that the murders were all caused by magic acts when Battler is aware the witch can alter the "movie" at a whim? The only way the anime would make sense was if the witch somehow would take Battler to the first 6 episodes where the murders took place and attempted to show Battler what happened from different points of view, but unfortunately none of that is happening. The witch rewrites the story time and time again with the purpose of making Battler believe in her, plain and simple.

At the moment I fail to see all the clues and puzzles being left undisclosed when the anime is blunt in its way of showing shameless acts of magic in front of the viewers. If the anime would resort to never showing magic but just mere hints of hit being performed then I would agree on this anime being a mystery/thriller type.
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Old 2009-09-17, 23:47   Link #369
Ithekro
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I don't know why but I want to laugh at that last paragraph. Laugh like Beatrice I mean. If they didn't resort to the use of magic, there wouldn't be a story at this point. Basically from the look of things, the witch is saying she killed everyone, and Battler says that witches and magic don't exist. Therefore someone killed all those people...especially in the first arc where there was no full magic scenes for the murders.

The anime is meant to make you question what is going on. What is happening? If magic is the answer, then there is no point to the plot...it is just too easy. Therefore there must be something else, and one supposed though use of the red text, one might find out at least what did or did not happen, since the red text is suppose to be the truth.

As for Battler knowing he's dead...he and the other cousins pretty much say they are dead in episode 5, at the tea party. They talk about Shannon and Kanon's deaths in the past-tense, and Battler starts denying the witch even though she "kills" everyone in the room...in front of him, with magic. Since he knows he is dead, he also knows this world he is in is not real, thus, Beatrice killing everyone in front of him there means nothing.

As so far, Battler has not to our knowledged witnessed any magic scenes (such as Kanon's fights or Shannon's fight). If he had seen the fight with Kanon, he wouldn't have needed to ask if Kanon had died in that room (which was confirmed in red) If you mean he's death by goats in this episode....what was he doing before he went to see his grandfather and Beatrice? Drinking. Out of what looks like an Old Fashioned tumbler, typically used for things like whiskey.

With all games there are rules...just Battler doesn't know what they are...yet. What we see and what Battler sees are not always the same thing. Especially things that he doesn't see...such as the magic fights, or conversations in the past where Battler wasn't present. However, the rules will come.
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Old 2009-09-18, 00:25   Link #370
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Thanks for the response. The thing is, it hasn't been implied that Battler knows that he is dead and is already on some other plane of existence, if he was aware of it, it would be the same as acknowledging the supernatural and thus Beatrice's magic, perhaps the subs I watched didn't have an accurate translation.
I think you miss the point here. Battler only denies magic in the real world, not in the world he's in now (meta-world). He's never clearly stated that, but we can see that's what he attempts to do. All of the discussion between Battler and Beatrice is about the murders in the real world, not about what Beatrice can do in the meta-world. Beatrice never said: "See? I can stop time. See? I can make red words appear in the air. Do you believe in magic now?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
How exactly is Beatrice supposed to explain to Battler that the murders were all caused by magic acts when Battler is aware the witch can alter the "movie" at a whim? The only way the anime would make sense was if the witch somehow would take Battler to the first 6 episodes where the murders took place and attempted to show Battler what happened from different points of view, but unfortunately none of that is happening. The witch rewrites the story time and time again with the purpose of making Battler believe in her, plain and simple.
She uses the Red Truth to corner him. She makes it look like it's impossible for human to commit the crime. If Battler accept that human can't do it, it's the same with accept the witch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
At the moment I fail to see all the clues and puzzles being left undisclosed when the anime is blunt in its way of showing shameless acts of magic in front of the viewers. If the anime would resort to never showing magic but just mere hints of hit being performed then I would agree on this anime being a mystery/thriller type.
Because that's their purpose. The magic scenes are there to mesh up everything, to confuse you and make you don't know what to think anymore.
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Old 2009-09-18, 00:55   Link #371
Sugetsu
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post

The anime is meant to make you question what is going on. What is happening? If magic is the answer, then there is no point to the plot...it is just too easy.
That's exactly what I am getting at. There should be no magic scenes at all, at least not bold spells and supernatural things happening so early in the series, the death of Kanon for the second time was what really spoiled the storyline for me; when Battler and the witch show up at the scene and battler tries to beat her with logical arguments I thought to myself "What is the point of this anime? I thought this was going to be a mystery/thriller type but now it just seems as if it is about a guy with a zealot belief in logic that just won't get it".

I do admit that the first 6 episodes of the series were superb. I was really hocked up, there was just hint a magic being used and the plot was thickening by the minute.
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Old 2009-09-18, 01:06   Link #372
Ithekro
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Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to find out what is going on behind the magic. What does it mean? Is it a clue? Is it a red herring? Is it showing you something would wouldn't have seen or known about if this was pure mystery? So far we've had the basic story of October 4th and 5th retold twice. Both times different people died in a different order. The methods sort of changed, but some patterns remained. What was the pattern? Does it give us any clues to who killed these people? Was it Beatrice? If so, where was she during the first arc?

What are the rules to this game between Beatrice and Battler? And what of the other two witches? Do they matter? Or are they to distract you from the mystery? Will there be more magic (OP says yes)?
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Old 2009-09-18, 01:11   Link #373
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Deduction? Mystery novels? And traditional ones? Ahahahahaha! How laughable!! Good kids, if you have bought mystery books then let Mummy read it first, and then ask her, "Are the riddles in this book something I can solve?" If Mummy nods her head, then you can go on and read. You can just eat the baby food Mummy has already chewed up for you. HAHAHAHAHAHA!
This is what you are asking for. That the story will clearly state that magic doesn't exist, and the mystery is solvable by logic. But Ryukishi had another project for this story. Making you doubt that speculating is even worth it in this story was his purpose since the beginning.

Ryukishi really wanted to raise a challenge for Umineko. He wanted to see who has the guts to try and solve this mystery even if it isn't even sure that there is a point ins speculating.

You are right, if there's magic at work, then there is absolutely no point. So are you going to give up? Or are you trying anyway?
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Old 2009-09-18, 01:49   Link #374
MarthX
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is what you are asking for. That the story will clearly state that magic doesn't exist, and the mystery is solvable by logic. But Ryukishi had another project for this story. Making you doubt that speculating is even worth it in this story was his purpose since the beginning.

Ryukishi really wanted to raise a challenge for Umineko. He wanted to see who has the guts to try and solve this mystery even if it isn't even sure that there is a point ins speculating.

You are right, if there's magic at work, then there is absolutely no point. So are you going to give up? Or are you trying anyway?
Umineko truly is different than people what are used to, which has caused a lot of backlash. Other shows try to help the viewer. Umineko does the opposite. It tries to confuse you. As a result, most people will be utterly clueless and might not find the series enjoyable.

I think Umineko isn't for everyone. Especially not the anime. Even if you're confused in the VN, everything is so good that you don't really care. It's still very exciting.
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Old 2009-09-18, 02:24   Link #375
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Above everything, Umineko demands of the detective (you the player/viewer) to be a skeptic, a cynic, but more than that someone with a spirit unwilling to be conrnered by seemngly overwhelming odds to the point of confusion.

This is the presentation premise of the story itself, to try and convince you with seemingly irrefutable proof that magic is the power of the perpetrator and is the only viable option. The detective's task then is to find a hole to explain everything as a result of human action rather than the supernatural.

It is, in other words, a fight against overwhelming odds.
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Old 2009-09-18, 03:47   Link #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
That's exactly what I am getting at. There should be no magic scenes at all, at least not bold spells and supernatural things happening so early in the series, the death of Kanon for the second time was what really spoiled the storyline for me; when Battler and the witch show up at the scene and battler tries to beat her with logical arguments I thought to myself "What is the point of this anime? I thought this was going to be a mystery/thriller type but now it just seems as if it is about a guy with a zealot belief in logic that just won't get it".

I do admit that the first 6 episodes of the series were superb. I was really hocked up, there was just hint a magic being used and the plot was thickening by the minute.
It is not a joke, Beatrice is already laughing at you.

Spoiler for Excerpt from Anti-Mystery vs Anti-Fantasy:
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Old 2009-09-18, 04:31   Link #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
That's exactly what I am getting at. There should be no magic scenes at all
Let me ask you this: why there "shouldn't" be any kind of this?

You are basically trapped by the false premise Umineko would be your cookie cutter mystery plot a la Agatha Christie which is absolutely not the case.
Considering the genre and medium, umineko offers a blend of several genre, graviting around the mystery regarding the culprit(s). That is to say, it doesn't have to follow any convention, and to make things even more interesting: as we mentioned several times ever since this second arc started, if you stop your thought process just because of the flashy magic scenes, you just lost the game, period.

The idea is actually not figuring out "if it is a witch or a human", but simply sticking on your conviction, then elaborating the arguments behind your own premise.
Basically: it isn't because there are witches that Magic exists in the real world of Umineko. Plain and simple.
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Old 2009-09-18, 10:43   Link #378
Sugetsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post

The idea is actually not figuring out "if it is a witch or a human", but simply sticking on your conviction, then elaborating the arguments behind your own premise.
Basically: it isn't because there are witches that Magic exists in the real world of Umineko. Plain and simple.
The way that sounds is as if I should have faith in my beliefs in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Kinda like Christopher Columbus trying to convince the queen of Spain that the earth is round. Don't get my wrong, I believe that everyone should have their own convictions of how the world works but should always remain open to new points of view. There is a clear distinction between convictions and faith, I believe that faith is detrimental to human awareness.

How am I supposed to stick to my own convictions during the second killing of Kanon or Shanon when you can clearly see shameless acts of magic that resemble Sailor Moon? Battler is never present during those acts because he would be completely overwhelmed by the facts and be forced to give up. It is the same with the red letters, Battler explicitly said to Beatrice not to mention magic when she is explaining the murder scenes because they would "appear" as truth.

To me it seems that all this "irrational" story telling would become clear in the following episodes. However, I believe that the author made a huge mistake by not making explicit but rather subtle connections between where the story is heading and the objective of the anime. Subtleties are too vague and will always mislead many in the wrong direction, which in point becomes detrimental to the anime because many people will just turn away from it. I might be an exception because instead of running away I sought help in understanding what is going on by coming to this forum, but many other people won't even bother.

PS. Yes I am trapped in premise that this would be a completely different type of anime, but I don't think it is my fault. The anime was very explicit during the first 6 episodes and it seemed very clear where it was heading. Obviously, the author wanted to try something new so he just turned the world upside down for the sheer joy of watching his views go "WTF".
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Old 2009-09-18, 10:51   Link #379
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And that's exactly why people love this series -- it's unconventional. The greater the risk or the odds, the greater the reward.

It seems like you have a clash of ego with the author.
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Old 2009-09-18, 10:54   Link #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
The way that sounds is as if I should have faith in my beliefs in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
What evidence?
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