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View Poll Results: Bakemonogatari - Episode 8 Rating
Perfect 10 58 42.96%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 34.81%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 16.30%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.70%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.22%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-03, 16:51   Link #221
Zetsubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
I really liked the idea of "two sides of a wish".

One thing I'm slightly puzzled about: was there another significance to Senjougahara promising in front of the devil to kill Kanbaru (if Kanbaru killed Araragi) apart from both sides of the wish being unable to coexist? There seemed to be the implication that the devil was also backed down out of self-preservation, though I wouldn't have thought that killing Kanbaru would kill the devil...

1.
Senjougahara does not want Araragi to take stupid risks with his life. Thusly she is subtly forcing him to think things through in the future. She does not want him to be so rash in the choices he makes. She complained that he just "goes with the flow" and no formulates no real long term plan. Therefore she is in essence giving him a concrete risk to not thinking things through. In the event that he does something stupid like this again, worse without consulting her, she will slay whoever slayed him.

"Are you trying to turn me into a murder."

As such Araragi knows that someone (Hitagi) truly needs him, and wants him to stay alive. He has a strong and valid, although crazy, reason to be more cautious from now on.

2. Kanbarus devil cannot make the other part of wish come true if Kanbaru is dead. Recall that Kanbaru wants to get close to Hitagi again. If Kanbaru winds up being dead, that won't be possible. So the devil leaves.

In a strange way, Senojugahara is making Araragi understand that not only are they lovers, but that they are now a team. As such, he should honor the promise they made not to keep secrets of this nature (oddities) from each other. The idea is that she can offer her support and vice versa.

Remember she is a genius, so she may come up with better plans than he does.
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Old 2009-09-03, 17:27   Link #222
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
2. Kanbarus devil cannot make the other part of wish come true if Kanbaru is dead. Recall that Kanbaru wants to get close to Hitagi again. If Kanbaru winds up being dead, that won't be possible. So the devil leaves.
I repeatedly have trouble accepting that interpretation. The rainy devil would be a wimp of a demon to be so easily intimidated by such a threat. After all, it probably means little to it whether its host survives or not. It's an immortal entity in the form of a mummified paw. Should Kanbaru die, it could always wait for another host to possess. It could care less about Kanbaru's physical well-being.

In my mind, Kanbaru subconsciously wanted to get rid of Araragi so as to eliminate a rival in love. Senjougahara's confession in front of the both of them makes it plain that she would be totally devoted to Araragi, even after his death. Moreover, killing Araragi would turn Senjougahara into Kanbaru's most implacable enemy. Since Kanbaru's deepest, unspoken desire is for Senjougahara to love her, it would no longer make any sense for Kanbaru to kill Araragi.

Hence, her subconscious wish died within her, and the rainy devil's boon was thus nullified. It can only grant its user's subconscious wishes, and if Kanbaru no longer wished Araragi dead, it no longer needed to fulfil that wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
In a strange way, Senojugahara is making Araragi understand that not only are they lovers, but that they are now a team. As such, he should honor the promise they made not to keep secrets of this nature (oddities) from each other. The idea is that she can offer her support and vice versa.
Perhaps so. But I have a feeling that Araragi didn't get the message. And I also have a feeling that Senjougahara suspects the same. Hence, she got Kanbaru to meet him again after the ordeal, both as a way for the two to reconcile their differences, and to have Kanbaru keep an eye on Araragi.
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Old 2009-09-03, 17:54   Link #223
Zetsubo
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I repeatedly have trouble accepting that interpretation. The rainy devil would be a wimp of a demon to be so easily intimidated by such a threat.
It is... that is why Oshino-san called a it lesser demon/devil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
It's an immortal entity in the form of a mummified paw. Should Kanbaru die, it could always wait for another host to possess. It could care less about Kanbaru's physical well-being.
A contract is a contract. Besides, Waiting for another host could take centuries, and I do not think this lesser demon wants to risk it. It is not as powerful as a monkeys paw. It needs Kanbaru. Else it will not grow more than it has now. Remember Kanbaru has one more wish left. The demon knows it is close to achieving its goal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
In my mind, Kanbaru subconsciously wanted to get rid of Araragi so as to eliminate a rival in love. Senjougahara's confession in front of the both of them makes it plain that she would be totally devoted to Araragi, even after his death. Moreover, killing Araragi would turn Senjougahara into Kanbaru's most implacable enemy. Since Kanbaru's deepest, unspoken desire is for Senjougahara to love her, it would no longer make any sense for Kanbaru to kill Araragi.

Hence, her subconscious wish died within her, and the rainy devil's boon was thus nullified.
And if the wish dies within Kanbaru, that wimpy demon still has to obey give up and leave.

Quote:
It can only grant its user's subconscious wishes, and if Kanbaru no longer wished Araragi dead, it no longer needed to fulfil that wish.
It wasn't Kanbaru doing that triggered the tailspin. Kanbaru does not want to be killed. Full stop. Worse, killed by the object of her affection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
Perhaps so. But I have a feeling that Araragi didn't get the message. And I also have a feeling that Senjougahara suspects the same. Hence, she got Kanbaru to meet him again after the ordeal, both as a way for the two to reconcile their differences, and to have Kanbaru keep an eye on Araragi.
Wait for the next episode

What you seem to be over looking is that, Koyomi did something great for Hitagi. Hitagi recognises this. Hi9tagi got back her best friend. It was Koyomi's desire to give Hitagi what she lost as a result of the crab. This means, her junior Kanbaru.

Araragi forced Senojugahar, ONCE AGAIN to face forward and grow toward healing. It was he who triggered her regaining her emotions when he chased after her to offer her help. Thus, again, it is he who precipitates a re-union between her and her lost friend.

The man was willing to loose his life to give/return to Hitagi something precious.

Hitagi is well aware of that... so she had no choice but to act positively.

Bear in mind that Hitagi is/was bad at "settling her accounts with people"

Thus forcing her to settle up with Kanbaru and finally, giving Kanbaru a chance to confess and let Hitagi know how she feels and for Hitagi to give Kanbaru an answer.

It seems that Hitagi has learnt that in order to keep Koyomi from taking such future risks for her sake, she needs to ensure that her loose ends are sorted out.
They can now move forward.

Hitagi now wants to two most important people in her life to be friends. Friendship means helping each other.

Besides, Koyomi doesn't have many friends. Like Hitagi, he has trouble making them. So, why not share. Ergo Hitagi is sharing something/someone precious (Kanbaru) with Koyomi. He gets a loyal friend as a reward for his hard blood letting work.

Logical is it not ?

Simple is as simple does.
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Old 2009-09-04, 01:00   Link #224
Intranetusa
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
...
The style of dialogue between the two couples is very different, as is the dynamic running between the two pairs of lead characters. Unlike Araragi, Lawrence is more assertive and less likely to give in to Horo's jibes without putting up some kind of resistance. And, despite her occasional sarcasm, Horo is no match for Senjougahara in terms of spite...
Yeh, I feel that Spice and Wolf dialogue is a battle between two debates on equal footing...whereas Bakemonogatari is just one side (senjo) dominating the other helpless side (Aragi).
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Old 2009-09-04, 04:46   Link #225
zato_1one
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I'm curious that if rainy devil only grant the negative side of Kanbaru's wish. Why did it care about the positive side? Kanbaru's subconscious clearly wanted to kill Araragi. Rainy devil could only grant that by killing Araragi. Why did it care that Kanbaru couldn't be together with Senjougahara again?
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Old 2009-09-04, 05:17   Link #226
Azuma Denton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
I'm curious that if rainy devil only grant the negative side of Kanbaru's wish. Why did it care about the positive side? Kanbaru's subconscious clearly wanted to kill Araragi. Rainy devil could only grant that by killing Araragi. Why did it care that Kanbaru couldn't be together with Senjougahara again?
Hmm maybe the real contract is to kill Araragi so Kanbaru can be with Senjougahara
First part can be made true, but can the second part be made true??
ADD: after Senjougahara's claim, Kanbaru will not be able to fulfill both part of that sentence...

2nd possibility
Araragi die so Kanbaru will die too, claim Senjougahara.
So why Rainy Devil will keep fulfilling wish that will not benefit it?
After all, Rainy Devil purpose is Kanbaru's soul...
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Old 2009-09-04, 07:16   Link #227
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
I'm curious that if rainy devil only grant the negative side of Kanbaru's wish. Why did it care about the positive side? Kanbaru's subconscious clearly wanted to kill Araragi. Rainy devil could only grant that by killing Araragi. Why did it care that Kanbaru couldn't be together with Senjougahara again?
That's the difficulty I have too, which is why I think Zetsubo's interpretation is inadequate.

I've already given my take on what possibly caused the rainy devil to give up on Kanbaru's second wish:
Quote:
In my mind, Kanbaru subconsciously wanted to get rid of Araragi so as to eliminate a rival in love. Senjougahara's confession in front of the both of them makes it plain that she would be totally devoted to Araragi, even after his death. Moreover, killing Araragi would turn Senjougahara into Kanbaru's most implacable enemy. Since Kanbaru's deepest, unspoken desire is for Senjougahara to love her, it would no longer make any sense for Kanbaru to kill Araragi.
So, it's not so much that the rainy devil is trying to do Kanbaru a favour, but rather that Kanbaru's subconscious wish to kill Araragi had been negated by Senjougahara's vow to fight for him even after his death. Kanbaru wants Senjougahara to love her — she doesn't want to turn her beloved senpai into an enemy instead.

Since Kanbaru's subliminal rage had died away, there was nothing left to motivate the rainy devil. Hence, it gave up and left.

Well, all that's just one of many possible interpretations, of course. If it makes things clear for you, great. If you don't agree, that's also fine.
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Old 2009-09-04, 11:29   Link #228
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Hmm, sounds plausible. I like it.
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:14   Link #229
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The simple way to put it is: Kanbaru and the devil had a contract, and once that contract was broken, the devil left... from what I know of mythology, no matter how powerful the devil, they all take contracts (and loopholes) quite seriously...
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Old 2009-09-05, 09:02   Link #230
klare
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i was shocked 2 times by the violent level in this eps

one in the OP when Hitagi cut Kanbara with big scissors

another one when seeing the way Araragi beaten by the rainy devil
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Old 2009-09-07, 12:40   Link #231
puretsundere
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Another great episode as this series continues to easily be the best show of the summer. Loved the OP for Kanbaru.
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Old 2009-09-20, 11:14   Link #232
Mughi
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Thumbs up

Wow... this show went from "supernatural" to "Supernatural Born Killers" pretty danged quick....

A fascinating episode and one that opened my eyes to some interesting stories that I wasn't aware of. Good stuff. My random thoughts about this:

This show DOES look like Utena... Whoever said that I've agreed from the start. VERY stylish. To another member's point, I also agree that the "censoring effect" of the cards was more disturbing than if they had just showed more gore... sort of a Hitchcockian use of storytelling. I actually enjoyed it much more and found the entrails scene more shocking for the use of it...

All of the characters played their parts very well and stayed true to themselves. About Araragi's motivations to keep being beat down even at the possible cost of his life:
Spoiler for conjecture:


Enough has been said about Senjougahara's attitude and responses to the situation. I can only add that everyone has their role to play in life and as a character, she is playing hers perfectly. SO much fun to see what she will do and say each time she takes the screen.

Although the stories are vastly different in theme and tone, I find Shinobu's character of the loli vampire interestingly close to Negima's Evangeline. Just as Evangeline is a defeated vampire who once had vast powers, she is now confined to a small frail body (with blonde hair), and is a shadow of her former self, forced to stay in one general location to survive. I wonder about Shinobu's backstory and if there is more to her than just the short cute blonde vampire-child parallel.

Not so much a harem story, with the addition of Kanbaru there seems to be a sort of dysfunctional family building here... Each has their part in supporting the others in this family and more will likely be swept into it as we move along...

Overall an amazing a chilling, yet amusing series so far.
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Old 2009-09-23, 12:00   Link #233
risingstar3110
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This arc has a fit ending =]

Also......... Araragi seems used to be more badass than how he looks now. The loli vampire was mentioned a lots this chapter (and seems interesting), so i hope her arc (if she has one) will come soon....
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Old 2009-11-04, 10:26   Link #234
destiny4everlove
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Episode 8
-I really like Araragi, he is so kind, nice, he is such an awesome guy!

- Araragi and Kanbaru's fight was pretty cool and Senjo’s appearance in the room was unexpected and great!

- Senjo protecting Araragi was so amazing! Loved that scene!

-The scene between Senjo and Kanbaru, where Senjo hugged Kanbaru and Kanbaru finally got the chance to confess her lover for Senjo, was really nice.

- So it was Senjo who defeated the Rainy devil in the end. Senjo is so awesome even if she is a little crazy when jealous.
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Old 2013-11-07, 23:57   Link #235
OkamiNoKaze
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Finally getting around to watching this series, I think the girls in this series have the best smiles I've seen in any anime, among them Kanbaru has the best
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