AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 37 20.67%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 26.26%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 41 22.91%
7 out of 10 : Good 27 15.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 18 10.06%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 1.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.12%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 1.12%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.12%
Voters: 179. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-09-18, 10:54   Link #381
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 30
Ryukishi actively encouraged public discussion and cooperation for Umineko much in the same way he did for Higurashi; that is, Umineko is probably something a single person will not be able to figure out alone, and the author seems to have suggested that you're going to need the input of other people to figure things out. I other words, it's something people as a whole will need to talk and share information on to unravel the mystery.

It could then be said that the story is not meant for a single mind's reading: you're going to need input from other people if you want a snowball's chance in hell of making it through.

The current problem with Battler is that everything's new to him: he's playing by the witch's rules and is still being led on by her. Episode 12 (you'll want to watch it at least) has shown he's already starting to learn how to play and not make things a one-sided match. Suffice to say that even the rules of the game aren't exactly what they seem.

The very nature of Umineko is the reason Animesuki's VN player community for Umineko is a tightly bunched and cooperative group of lunatics.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-09-18 at 12:16. Reason: No, just don't mention that POV matter, it isn't explained yet...
MeoTwister5 is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 11:03   Link #382
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Ryukishi actively encouraged public discussion and cooperation for Umineko much in the same way he did for Higurashi; that is, Umineko is probably something a single person will not be able to figure out alone, and the author seems to have suggested that you're going to need the input of other people to figure things out. I other words, it's something people as a whole will need to talk and share information on to unravel the mystery.
Thank you. This explains what is going with the series.
Sugetsu is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 11:27   Link #383
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Spoiler for personal take regarding "keeping human culprit" premise:
Klashikari is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 11:58   Link #384
jeroz
Art Block Specialist
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
you just lost the game
(sorry for being immature, but I just want to highlight this )

and also
on the behalf of Beatrice, i would like to welcome Sugetsu for becoming her new furnature~
now you may kiss her shoe.
(unless you want to regain the fighting spirit)

personally I find it better to treat it as two genres mixed in two different layers. If you take the presentations at face value, it's a decent fantasy action thriller.
However if you want to seek the culprit, you have to treat those "magic" scenes as symbolism of what truly happened. Once you stop believing in the existence of magic, then those sequences are not necessarily the truth, as they are "impossible" in this world.

just my two cent's worth
__________________
She's not Mary Sue, she's Hajime-su!
jeroz is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 13:04   Link #385
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Fair enough. Please care to explain what was the underlying truth behind Kanon's and Shamon's dead? What was really going on under the curtain during their assassinations that I failed to see?

I am not being sarcastic by the way.
Sugetsu is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 13:15   Link #386
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
You are actually acting like George and the rest back in the first tea party: because there isn't any immediate explanations about one's death, it "becomes" the witch doing.
However, there is no definite truth to explain everything, but the underlying assumption is: since there are so many possible explanations behind these cases, it is pretty much leaving too much room for an oversimple "magic" explanation.

Kanon: as much people already figured out, there is no proof regarding "Jessica's key" authenticity. Therefore, there is no need of a Master Key for this case (and if we aren't as naive as Battler, nothing prevents us to suspect Gohda or Kumasawa).
Likewise, there is no proof Kanon "really" died if Beatrice used a word play (although I'm not fan of this speculation).
If we speculate the whole scene was a giant delusion by Kanon (who is overly loyal to Kinzo), it is possible to explain the fancy show.

Likewise, there is nothing that settle Shannon's death either.

For all intent and purpose: from a author point of view, it would be suicide and meaningless if the answer is "the witch", because it wouldn't require any thought process for the solution.
Furthermore, once again, there ARE inconsistencies:
First: why did the "witch" kill people despite the alibis aren't clear enough? Why didn't she show up before them? And so forth and so forth.
Klashikari is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 14:39   Link #387
Arbane the Terrible
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Furthermore, once again, there ARE inconsistencies:
First: why did the "witch" kill people despite the alibis aren't clear enough? Why didn't she show up before them? And so forth and so forth.
Don't forget "why did she screw up the order of the deaths?"
Arbane the Terrible is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 14:43   Link #388
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Well then, everything you say is correct if what the witch showed us is just a huge illusion like in the matrix, But there isn't any suggestion of an illusion on a world scale. She is able to create worlds and situations and make people die over and over, thats why she is called the infinite witch. But then again as you all have said, it is all very subjective + the possible problems of badly translated subs could make things even worse. I have never played the game nor watched any other animes made but this author, so I have no idea what to expect.
Sugetsu is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 15:13   Link #389
Arbane the Terrible
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Well then, everything you say is correct if what the witch showed us is just a huge illusion like in the matrix, But there isn't any suggestion of an illusion on a world scale. She is able to create worlds and situations and make people die over and over, thats why she is called the infinite witch. But then again as you all have said, it is all very subjective + the possible problems of badly translated subs could make things even worse. I have never played the game nor watched any other animes made but this author, so I have no idea what to expect.
Well, the author's previous work, Higurashi no Naki Koro Ni, also involved a time-looping mystery with a lot of Unreliable Narration, so he's definitely got a theme going on. I know the first season (at least) has been officially released in English, so it might be worth checking out.

(Dragging Higurashi's cosmology into it, it's entirely possible that rather than creating or resetting the entire world each time a new 'game' starts, Beatrice is just picking a new pre-existing alternate universe to mess with.)
Arbane the Terrible is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 15:32   Link #390
maximilianjenus
[E]
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
There is no such thing as a timeloop by the way, it was not like that in higurashi and it is not like that here, though an explanation on that contains higurashi spoilers. time loop is used as a simple explanation. palallel universes is closer to how it works.
maximilianjenus is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 15:38   Link #391
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
OK, no wonder I find the story line weird, if I had watched or played the game I would really be able to a clearer picture of whats going on.

Thank you all for your help in helping understand.
Sugetsu is offline  
Old 2009-09-18, 18:32   Link #392
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
man I REALLY love Beatrice's laugh at the end of this episode. During the meals, it's just so darn addicting to me.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline  
Old 2009-09-19, 22:04   Link #393
Kaioshin Sama
Banned
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here nor There
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Kaioshin Sama
To sum up this entire thread, people want their memetic scenes and they want them NOW! Speaking of which Maria's faces which just look borderline retarded this episode kind of reminds me of that popular emoticon from Something Awful Forums:

Spoiler for It's eventually going to stay that way:


Hilarious. Anyway I think the characters kind of put up a better fight in this arc than the last one, but not by much. Battler it feels just gives in way to easily in that he can't bring himself to suspect any of his family members or the servants. He's going to have to eventually though if it means he's ever going to have a ghost of chance of disproving Beatrice's existence. Other than that everything is still extremely unclear with these question arcs as I felt they were in Higurashi's if not more so. I guess I'll just have to place my trust in the future answer arcs to even start to make any real world sense of what is being portrayed here in this arc as magic, goat demons and killer maids with kinky loli voices. Here's to probably seeing Battler bowing down to Beatrice (Femdom levels off the charts by the way) a few more times until some sort of factor x (seemingly Bernkastel as a helper and advisor) finally gets introduced into this to break Beatrice's own willed stalemate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by June 1983 View Post
This has been explained to people lots and lots of times in this forum, but I'll give it a go.

1) Not everything we see is necessarily what happened. If the witch isn't the murderer, then the magical scenes we see on the gameboard (in other words, in the Real-World), are illusions. That doesn't mean those scenes are worthless, but rather you should consider them to be only metaphorical. They give you clues about what might really be happening, the real truth which we aren't allowed see.

2) Battler's objective is to prove that a witch didn't commit the murders with magic in the Real-World. Therefore, magic performed in the afterlife/the Meta-World/Purgatorio does not contradict the contention that magic doesn't exist in the Real-World, or that the perpetrator isn't a witch. A person can belief in the afterlife or the supernatural on another plane of existence without believing that it exists in reality. That is where Meta-Battler is situated: he knows he has died. He knows he's on some other plane. He knows that he is observing different realities and that Beatrice (or somebody) is showing him a magical version of events).

3) With each game that concludes in a "bad end", the magical "corruption" can be said to increase. More and more magical things and beings are appearing, because Beatrice is gaining strength. That doesn't necessarily mean that the magical explanation becomes more and more airtight -- in fact, most people would say it becomes more and more sloppy.

4) Magic might exist in Umineko, but whether it's the tool used in the murders or it really works the way Beato claims it does is the main question of the story.

The mystery only becomes an open-and-shut case in favor of magic if, as Battler says, you stop thinking. There are MANY, MANY holes in the anti-mystery argument if you look for them.

To flip the chessboard around, too, think about the story a different way. Instead of framing the story as "Battler is trying to prove that Beatrice isn't a witch and the murderer" think of it as "Beatrice is trying to convince Battler that she is a witch and the murderer." Which leads you to the question of why? The magical explanation is "because she needs everyone to believe in order to open up the door to the Golden Land." But if you are arguing from a mystery standpoint, then everything gets a lot more complicated and interesting. Why on earth might Beatrice want to be framed as the murderer? What is going on?

In the end, Umineko is more about what ISN'T being said and shown than about what is readily apparent.

I also recommend reading Ryukishi's "Anti-Fantasy vs Anti-Mystery" TIP which was posted in one of the anime threads recently I think.
I realized this pretty quickly, but even still I recognize that the anime doesn't do a terribly good job at showing that what you see with the goat butlers and stakes of purgatory is likely just imagery being used to symbolize the unknown. Battler never saw how he and these other people really died, thus the meta-game is like him being given a chance to figure out how it happened with Beatrice being a metaphor for all of his doubts about the fact that it could have been one of his relatives. The chance he is being given is kind of like trying to achieve the ascendant knowledge some believe you are supposed to gain after leaving the mortal coil. I think the problem is that the anime tends to indulge in the surreal scenes a little to much, allowing them to take the forefront to the point that it all seems like it has to be the case. Of course this could just be Battler's perspective, but it's still kind of misleading since the meta-world scenes come quite infrequently.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2009-09-19 at 22:14.
Kaioshin Sama is offline  
Old 2009-09-19, 22:45   Link #394
MarthX
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Age: 29
Turn of the golden witch (the second arc) is supposed to be really hard in terms of denying the witch. Even if the suspect the fantasy scenes are fake, there's not much evidence to prove that. And what evidence there is, is hidden away. You really have to pay attention to detail and have faith in the series, that everything isn't as simple as it appears to be.

Many people mistakenly think it's only confusing because of the how the anime adapted it. Which isn't true at all. The VN has more information but it's hardly any clearer. It never says that there's two different battlers and it never tells what Battler is and isn't witnessing. It never says that the Meta World isn't part of Battler and Beatrice's game. Hell, it doesn't even give the alternative world a name. Bern describes Turn perfectly, A one sided game.

Umineko is the type of series where you won't immediately understand what's going on. Sometimes you have to talk with others about it before you have a general understanding. The terms: Meta Battler, Meta World, Piece Battler etc are all fans terms for example. The VN didn't give you that information, it's something fans learned through interaction.
MarthX is offline  
Old 2009-09-20, 19:20   Link #395
Archon_Wing
Throw it on the ground
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Mists
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Oohh, I sorta take back any statements I had with censorship earlier.

The stupid faces are getting really silly and annoying. It's just getting too over the top to take seriously, and I hope they would stop competing to show who has the weirdest faces.

There's some crazy shit in this episode, and no wonder why my friends were telling me this episode should be diffrent. And those scenes near the end were wtf. Pretty disturbing stuff there. *Shudders* I knew Beatrice was on the kinky end, but geez.

Anyhow, the Rosa/Maria scenes during the fight were pretty cool, if not a bit short and Shannon/George were done somewhat well..

Battler, how can you make obscene jokes like that in a situation like that? And about your family member that's only a little kid? I'll give the episode a 7 for the wtfness and a few awesome scenes. I'm not really sure what's going on here as its happening really fast and the new witch may throw a screw into these things. People always want quick answers, and often times a supernatural one would fill in the gaps. But can we challenge ourselves to think a little more? That's the challenge of Umineko.
__________________
You just try again... through the darkness.You just go away... the future is waiting for us!
Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline  
Old 2009-09-20, 19:50   Link #396
Arbane the Terrible
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Battler, how can you make obscene jokes like that in a situation like that?
(Small spoiler for the start of Episode 3--just in case we forgot how evil Beatrice was in Episode 2.)
Spoiler:
Arbane the Terrible is offline  
Old 2009-09-20, 19:51   Link #397
ChibiBear
Aim's Stalker ^_~
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 19
Send a message via MSN to ChibiBear
That's just... wrong...
__________________
Meow meow nano desu~ Nipah~
ChibiBear is offline  
Old 2009-09-20, 19:55   Link #398
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
If I was Battler I would do anything in defiance against the golden b....witch eh...heh ^_^;;;
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline  
Old 2009-09-20, 20:37   Link #399
TsundereCake
真 ラブ
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Everywhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlanor .a. Nox View Post
if i was battler i would do anything in defiance against the golden b....witch eh...heh ^_^;;;
blasphemy :<
__________________
I need a new sig ⊙︿⊙
TsundereCake is offline  
Old 2009-09-20, 21:09   Link #400
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
I'm anti-fantasy so sue me :/ Still I really would've loved to see Battler defy Beatrice, but I can see how it would be hard to animate the scene.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.