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Old 2009-09-20, 09:05   Link #1121
Heatth
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Originally Posted by worldruined View Post
Or at least, he won't consciously do it.

Spoiler for :
A cool theory. But is to much for a single line, I guess. IT would be a nice foreshadow, tough.
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Old 2009-09-20, 09:18   Link #1122
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Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
Hmmm, where this was said? Really, I don't remember aanything similar. If it was the case, why he wasn't in the school from the begining? Why transfer latter? He is also one of the weaker ESPers, you woul thing the main agent would be a more powerfull one. I believe there is another agent in the school way before Itsuki transfer, maybe in the calss 1-5 (fuel for another thread). Itsuki was send there as support, but end up Haruhi choosed him.

And, frankly, I don't see nothing in Itsuki conversation with Kyon that indicate he want to betrayal him. He might be just acting, but it is a baseless speculation.
I believe it was said in an interview regarding Character backstory from the Author way back in 2005 or so. It stated that Itsuki was assigned, Haruhi didn't "Choose". The only person Haruhi actually picked was Kyon. The rest were placed there for reasons unknown by the various factions.

As for tranfering, Haruhi wanted a transfer student and that's what she got. There are a group of espers in the school already according to Koizumi as well.

I think he will betray him eventually. Not for a while yet though.

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Originally Posted by worldruined View Post
It just strikes me as way, way too obvious. Will the Organization betray Kyon? Possibly. Will Koizumi, himself, do it? I'm not convinced of that.
Well, Koizumi as i said is the only person in the SOS brigade with a Human Motive. I therefore believe him to be the most likely candidate. Some of the best twists ever written were because the audience thought they were too obvious to happen.

I think Koizumi will betray Kyon in an attempt to get Haruhi or somthing but not for a while yet.

Quote:
Koizumi's also studied Kyon's entire life story and is clearly pretty fond of him (whether you take that to be on a "friendship" level or a "romantic" one is up to you). Why would he necessarily betray one for the other? (Further, if it weren't for one line in an alternate universe in volume four, would people have been as likely to jump on the "Koizumi loves Haruhi" bandwagon?)
Even without Disapperance it's not crazy to make the judgement that Koizumi loves Haruhi. He is openly resentful of their relationship on multiple occasions. He is probably interested in Kyon (As to why a normal human is with Haruhi ectra, Why Haruhi picked him specifically)


Source on the "specific agents" thing?

Quote:
Koizumi comments on their relationship because one of his motives -- or the Organization's, whichever -- seems to be to play matchmaker get Haruhi and Kyon together. Kyon keeps denying it and Koizumi keeps pushing; if Koizumi wanted a better chance for himself, he probably wouldn't be acting the way he does.
That's a valid point, In nearly every book he does push Haruhi and Kyon a LOT. Perhaps he is trying to keep things as stable as possible. It seems to work with Kyon admiting it in Book 9.


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Simply put, Kyon trusts Koizumi.
I'll conceed that.

Whether that trust is well placed is another matter entirely.
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Old 2009-09-20, 12:14   Link #1123
worldruined
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
A cool theory. But is to much for a single line, I guess. IT would be a nice foreshadow, tough.
Well, it wouldn't be the first time a single line in the series gets picked up for expansion in a later volume.


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Originally Posted by Tornadium View Post
I believe it was said in an interview regarding Character backstory from the Author way back in 2005 or so. It stated that Itsuki was assigned, Haruhi didn't "Choose". The only person Haruhi actually picked was Kyon. The rest were placed there for reasons unknown by the various factions.

As for tranfering, Haruhi wanted a transfer student and that's what she got. There are a group of espers in the school already according to Koizumi as well.
We know he was assigned; he says as much. The only thing Haruhi "chose" him for was for the SOS Brigade, but even that was semi-scripted, since the Organization undoubtedly knew she wanted a "mysterious transfer student", so cue one "mysterious transfer student". They just didn't expect her to swoop in on him so quickly.

And no, I don't think it was ever stated that there are already a group of espers in the school -- Organization agents, yes, but not necessarily espers. Not all of the Organization's members are espers; Kyon's count puts their number at a "handful", while Koizumi states there are about ten. The Organization seems to be much larger than that.


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Originally Posted by Tornadium View Post
Well, Koizumi as i said is the only person in the SOS brigade with a Human Motive. I therefore believe him to be the most likely candidate. Some of the best twists ever written were because the audience thought they were too obvious to happen.
And Asahina-san's motive of "I want to live" could not be considered human? If something were to happen that would make her choose one or the other, choosing the SOS Brigade (and assuming the future could be changed thus) would possibly erase her future, meaning that she'd essentially die, along with everything else she loved and cherished about her life before being sent back in time. That's not a human motive, to want to protect that?


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Originally Posted by Tornadium View Post
Even without Disapperance it's not crazy to make the judgement that Koizumi loves Haruhi. He is openly resentful of their relationship on multiple occasions. He is probably interested in Kyon (As to why a normal human is with Haruhi ectra, Why Haruhi picked him specifically)
I'd love to see some quotes on this, because I don't remember any instances in which he is "openly resentful" for their relationship. Does he mention being jealous? Yes, but it's never specified it's because of the reason you state. It's just as easy to twist that and say "maybe he's jealous because he knows that he never has a chance with Kyon" or "he's jealous because no one trusts him at all" or "maybe he just wants to find love and sees the Haruhi+Kyon as an ideal he doesn't feel he will ever reach". If the line in Disappearance had never existed, I can almost guarantee you that people would look at those "jealous" lines differently, if they don't already.


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Originally Posted by Tornadium View Post
Whether that trust is well placed is another matter entirely.
Yes, trusting Koizumi could be wrong.

Kyon could also be wrong about trusting Nagato. Or Asahina-san. Or Haruhi herself. You never know. Maybe they're all waiting to backstab him.
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Old 2009-09-20, 12:34   Link #1124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornadium View Post
I believe it was said in an interview regarding Character backstory from the Author way back in 2005 or so. It stated that Itsuki was assigned, Haruhi didn't "Choose". The only person Haruhi actually picked was Kyon. The rest were placed there for reasons unknown by the various factions.

As for tranfering, Haruhi wanted a transfer student and that's what she got. There are a group of espers in the school already according to Koizumi as well.
Which interview was that? I only know that one. There is nothing similar to it there.


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Originally Posted by worldruined View Post
We know he was assigned; he says as much. The only thing Haruhi "chose" him for was for the SOS Brigade, but even that was semi-scripted, since the Organization undoubtedly knew she wanted a "mysterious transfer student", so cue one "mysterious transfer student". They just didn't expect her to swoop in on him so quickly.
There were no way of they knowing she wants a "mysterious transfer student", as she only told to Kyon. I believe they only send Itsuki as an extra support, as agents from other factions have already approached to her. It was 'lucky' he being choosed. I can guess he was send to the school to try to enter in the SOSDan, but I believe it would be impossible to the Organizaton knows he would be cooced so fast. Its not like Mikuru, whose bosses already knew it was going to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by worldruined View Post
Yes, trusting Koizumi could be wrong.

Kyon could also be wrong about trusting Nagato. Or Asahina-san. Or Haruhi herself. You never know. Maybe they're all waiting to backstab him.
Heh, actually, Mikuru is the only one he don't trust. Not he thinks she will backstab him, but he never tell things to her and would never rely on her.
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Old 2009-09-20, 12:44   Link #1125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
There were no way of they knowing she wants a "mysterious transfer student", as she only told to Kyon. I believe they only send Itsuki as an extra support, as agents from other factions have already approached to her. It was 'lucky' he being choosed. I can guess he was send to the school to try to enter in the SOSDan, but I believe it would be impossible to the Organizaton knows he would be cooced so fast. Its not like Mikuru, whose bosses already knew it was going to happen.
To be fair, the conversation in which she expresses a desire for a "mysterious transfer student" is never stated to be in any particular location, at least in the novel. In the anime, it takes place just outside the classroom. One could argue that her wish could have been easily overheard there.

And anyway, the Organization would probably have still transferred in an esper after the other two faction's representatives ended up in the Brigade. It would just be a coincidence (or "God's will") that a transfer student was what she wanted.


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Heh, actually, Mikuru is the only one he don't trust. Not he thinks she will backstab him, but he never tell things to her and would never rely on her.
And since she has never explicitly stated (or even really shown) that given a choice between one or the other, she would consider the SOS Brigade's well-being over the future's, this is another reason why I'd consider her for betrayal before anyone else.
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Old 2009-09-20, 12:52   Link #1126
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Originally Posted by worldruined View Post
And anyway, the Organization would probably have still transferred in an esper after the other two faction's representatives ended up in the Brigade. It would just be a coincidence (or "God's will") that a transfer student was what she wanted.
It is what I think. Maybe it was intented to Itsuki becomes a brigade member. But I really don't think they knew he would be choosed as soon as he wass transfered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by worldruined View Post
And since she has never explicitly stated (or even really shown) that given a choice between one or the other, she would consider the SOS Brigade's well-being over the future's, this is another reason why I'd consider her for betrayal before anyone else.
Totally agree.
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Old 2009-09-20, 18:57   Link #1127
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Originally Posted by Tornadium View Post
Also on the last point, Koizumi = Replacement for Kyon (Esper) also replacement as Haruhi's Companion? Or at least a hint at an attempt being made by Koizumi, I really can't see Koizumi passing up the chance to get rid of Kyon if it presents itself.
I meant, the author intended Kyon to be the esper until he changed his mind and made Kyon the "normal."

Which also explains the lack of Koizumi development...
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Old 2009-09-20, 19:42   Link #1128
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I meant, the author intended Kyon to be the esper until he changed his mind and made Kyon the "normal."

Which also explains the lack of Koizumi development...
He have many years already to think in something. I mean, this excuse only work for the first book.
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Old 2009-09-20, 19:50   Link #1129
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And even then, it doesn't really. Most of Koizumi's scenes in the first book could have still worked with him as a slider, with his "mysterious transfer student" thing actually making more sense.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-09-20, 20:06   Link #1130
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And even then, it doesn't really. Most of Koizumi's scenes in the first book could have still worked with him as a slider, with his "mysterious transfer student" thing actually making more sense.
Yeah. Specially his powers.
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Old 2009-09-20, 21:03   Link #1131
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I'm inclined to say that Itsuki is a slider, granted other powers (ie. floating in energy balls in a place that seems like an alternate dimension and launching balls of red.)
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Old 2009-09-21, 03:50   Link #1132
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I think he was suppose to be a slider the first time we saw him. Now, however, he is an ESPer. IF a slider show up, it will likely be different from him.
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Old 2009-09-21, 15:47   Link #1133
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It would make sense. I guess Tanigawa got lazy and didn't bother to modify Itsuki's power or something along those lines. Bleh, I can't speak/type today...
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Old 2009-09-21, 19:07   Link #1134
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Should point out, guys, "isekaijin" means something like "person from another dimension".

"Slider" is the nearest English cultural equivalent, but the beings Haruhi was referring to are definitely not just "people with the ability to travel into other universes".

Koizumi was never planned to be the "slider", and if you read Vol. 1 it's kind of obvious how much of an afterthought he is.
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Old 2009-09-21, 19:39   Link #1135
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Should point out, guys, "isekaijin" means something like "person from another dimension".

"Slider" is the nearest English cultural equivalent, but the beings Haruhi was referring to are definitely not just "people with the ability to travel into other universes".

Koizumi was never planned to be the "slider", and if you read Vol. 1 it's kind of obvious how much of an afterthought he is.
I wouldn't say never. As said, the 'misterious' part fit very well with a person from another dimension. The only thing it don't really work if he was an slider is the Organization. But the organization has a very little role in the first book.

Also, is kinda hard to say he is an afterthought. True don't appear much, but many things only works due to his exposition. However, the exposition itself would be strange if it was from a guy from another dimension...

Well, the point is, I don't think you can say, with 100% of sure, he wasn't meat to be there in the first place, even if is true he wasn't menat to be what he is now. Besides, 5 men group is more common then a 4 men.

PP:
Oh, yeah, I know what isekaijin means. However, it is needed a way to travel between dimensions to have such people. Mikuru is a person from future, but she is also a time traveler. It is true a isekaijin don't need to be able to slide between dimensioons, but someone must know a way to do so. So, an isekaijin who can travel to another dimension is something that make sense.
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Old 2009-09-21, 19:46   Link #1136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Should point out, guys, "isekaijin" means something like "person from another dimension".

"Slider" is the nearest English cultural equivalent, but the beings Haruhi was referring to are definitely not just "people with the ability to travel into other universes".

Koizumi was never planned to be the "slider", and if you read Vol. 1 it's kind of obvious how much of an afterthought he is.
That's what I always thought! That "slider" meant "dimensional slider" not "alternate reality slider". Given how time travel works in this anime/novel, the idea of an alternate reality slider struck me as kind of odd... there doesn't appear to be alternate realities (well, except maybe one) in this anime/novel.
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Old 2009-09-21, 19:48   Link #1137
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That's what I always thought! That "slider" meant "dimensional slider" not "alternate reality slider". Given how time travel works in this anime/novel, the idea of an alternate reality slider struck me as kind of odd... there doesn't appear to be alternate realities (well, except maybe one) in this anime/novel.
...Wait, what is the difference? Another dimension can still be another reality right? And another reality is another dimension isn't it?
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Old 2009-09-21, 19:51   Link #1138
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...Wait, what is the difference? Another dimension can still be another reality right? And another reality is another dimension isn't it?
Well... you could be right. This is the western comic book fan in me talking. In DC and Marvel comics, another dimension usually meant some weird place; like, say, a Dream Realm ruled by a character called Nightmare.

In DC and Marvel, 'alternate realities' (in the sense of a reality where things happen differently; like the
Spoiler for general spoiler:
) are generally not called 'another dimension'.
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Old 2009-09-21, 20:06   Link #1139
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Well... you could be right. This is the western comic book fan in me talking. In DC and Marvel comics, another dimension usually meant some weird place; like, say, a Dream Realm ruled by a character called Nightmare.

In DC and Marvel, 'alternate realities' (in the sense of a reality where things happen differently; like the
Spoiler for general spoiler:
) are generally not called 'another dimension'.
Ah, I see now. While I think you could use it to make a more clear diferentiation, I don't think it is an universal rule. But I don't know what japanses thinks about it.
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Old 2009-09-21, 20:17   Link #1140
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Missing the point... if Koizumi had been a slider, he would have been from another dimension entirely.

Also, Closed Space is a form of pocket space within the normal universe, not another reality.
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