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Old 2009-09-21, 01:53   Link #161
Big Daddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Playing Devil's Advocate:



The fact that every single person landed on an island, even though the vast majority of the world is covered in water, indicates that Kuma had coordinates for every person. Otherwise, there survival would be one of the greatest plot contrivances in the entire series - if islands make up a very small percentage of the total surface, then everyone falling on an island would be statistically improbable (it would be like trying to hit a bull’s-eye on a dart board standing 100 meters away), so some navigation is required.

Additionally, since he did ask Perona where she would like to go, and she ended up where she wanted to go, that indicates that Kuma has precise control over where he sends his "victims".



Every action of Kuma's has been directly opposed to what the Marines or the WG wants. He did not take care of the Strawhats on Thriller Bark, and he refused the orders of an Admiral of Sabaody, even going so far as to have a whispered conversation with Rayleigh. So, it is hard to make a blanket statement like Kuma is the most loyal, when his every action seems to go against the WG. This is conjecture, of course, and there could be further layers we do not know of currently, but whatever the case, Kuma is more than ambiguous enough in his actions for possible disloyalty to be viable.



Zoro currently cannot fight the intangible, so who better to test his strength on than someone that can make an intangible target that won't actually hurt the controller if it is destroyed (i.e. Zoro can slash away at Perona's ghost without fear of hurting her)? Additionally, Zoro's gained the ability to cut iron/steel only when he was at his weakest, so constantly having to fight a ghost that cannot be cut and who has the ability to destroy confidence in a single blow is quite possibly the best training partner imaginable for Zoro.

(Again, conjecture. Most have assumed that Zoro would learn to cut through diamond (since it is a solid) before he would learn to cut the intangible (i.e. an element).)



Luffy is never taught, he learns from watching and interacting with others. After seeing what the Amazons and Rayleigh can do with Haki, Luffy has more than enough material to eventually master the ability without outside help.
how...none of the amazons did anything visually that would give you something to copy while they were using haki. Can Luffy read what they are thinking in their heads when they are putting haki into the arrows?

Let me ask you guys this...isn't there a possibility...since this is an anime...with people who can eat fruits that turn them into monsters, that this might of just been a coincidence to advance the plot.


If Kuma really did intend on this...that would mean he only came to the Saboady Archiplego(SP) to send them to each of these islands. Within the tiny time frame between luffy hit the world noble, and his battle with kuma, Kuma had all these islands in his head and had pin pointed exactly how he would need to hit them to get them to land on these islands. Not to mention he would have to account for the fact that any of them could of easily died, especially franky/chopper who are shown so far.

He was going to take luffy, and kill the rest of the strawhats until they showed their undying loyalty to luffy, specifically Zoro during the Thriller Bark arc. If zoro had not stepped up, it is fully conceivable that luffy would be dead/jailed at this point in the story (Which obviously wouldn't happen). Do you honestly think if Kuma had not planned this, Oda would just have one of the DF users land in the water and die? Obviously not, since it would be entirely anticlimactic.

Last but not least..this is the One Piece world, not the Earth we live on. We have no idea how much of their world is covered by water.
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Old 2009-09-21, 02:29   Link #162
james0246
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Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
how...none of the amazons did anything visually that would give you something to copy while they were using haki. Can Luffy read what they are thinking in their heads when they are putting haki into the arrows?
Why would he need to read minds? He knows they use haki, he has been told he uses haki or has at least seen himself do things similar to known users of haki, so why is it so hard to believe that he couldn't simply start pondering and come up with some ideas. I mean, this is the guy who learned how to pump his blood faster, even though he had no book knowledge of the human body by which to learn of the process, etc. Luffy is well known for observing the world around him, and then using nature, or other people, as a basis for his attacks. Simply seeing what the Amazons and Rayleigh can do, and then ficuring that he has done something similar, is all that is needed for Luffy start to learn Haki.

In other words, this is not a series in which the main character actively trains, rather his various abilities come after he sees or learns something that causes him to want to change an ability or create a new one.

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Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
Let me ask you guys this...isn't there a possibility...since this is an anime...with people who can eat fruits that turn them into monsters, that this might of just been a coincidence to advance the plot.
What's coincidental about it? Of course Luffy went to Amazon Lily to advance the plot, nearly everything in the series advances the plot in someway. So, there was nothing coincidental about Luffy ending up where he did, or any of the Strawhats ending up where they did.

You can, of course, argue whether Kuma sent them to specific places to train or level-up (it is almost impossible to argue that he didn't send them to specific islands, sicne we already know he has the ability to send people to specific destinations). But, if they do level-up, then Kuma's forced journey will have proved positive in nature which, consequently, adds creedence to the idea that Kuma is not loyal at all to the WG.

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Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
He was going to take luffy, and kill the rest of the strawhats until they showed their undying loyalty to luffy, specifically Zoro. If zoro had not stepped up, it is fully concievable that luffy would be dead/jailed at this point in the story (Which obviously wouldn't happen)
It is also fully probable that Kuma would have done exactly as he had done all along, or only save Luffy, but leave everyone else on Thriller Bark. Whatever the case, if Kuma was truly 100% loyal to the WG he would have completed his mission of killing/capturing Luffy no matter what he said to Zoro. Consequently, we can endlessly (until more info is provided) argue about Kuma's currently unknown motives and the actions said motives enforced.

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Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
Last but not least..this is the One Piece world, not the Earth we live on. We have no idea how much of their world is covered by water.
The Blue Sea is the vast surface of the planet that is split up into 4 distinct Oceans (East, West, North and South Blue), with the Red Line (the largest body of land in the vast sea) and the Grand Line/Calm Belt splitting the world like a giant cross.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-09-21 at 02:43.
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Old 2009-09-21, 02:42   Link #163
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Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
So kuma...he had all those islands on his mind as soon as he did this, and he has the ability to direct exactly how far the people he hits go? Highly highly highly doubt it. Also, you guys act like Kuma wants them to get stronger. Why in the hell would the shichibukai most loyal to the WG want to have the strawhats get stronger.
You really think that Kuma is royal to WG? Then you should read
chapter 513 again; the bottom left scene in the link.

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Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
Also, the only places that i see as great fits for the people to land are nami and Franky. Zoro's place makes no sense, neither do most of the other ones. You could make these connections with any island they landed on.
Makes no sense? I understand how you feel. I didn't make me any sense too, until I watched the last episode of the anime. How could you guess Franky's place come out to be Vegapunk's birth place without watching episode 418? I am quite sure that Zoro's will come out to be related with his ability, and Perona may play a role on this.

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Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
Luffy's doesn't make sense either since most of you guys don't believe that luffy learned anything about haki on amazon lily.
And you said this... Luffy leaving Amazon Lily so soon is just a turn of events. I think Kuma planned him to stay there longer. Who knows...?
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Old 2009-09-21, 04:31   Link #164
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I say Kuma is in cahoots with dragon or another organisation yet to be revealed, Maybe even the remnants of the void century.
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Old 2009-09-21, 07:25   Link #165
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Originally Posted by Battler-kun View Post
They only have 3 admirals and a head regarding the marines....there is nothing more.
Well if you think of it like that, WG has magma,ice,light and a mysterious fleet admiral.

On the other hand pirates has a quake machine and a phoenix.Not even mentioning the useless diamond man that is destined to get slaughtered by Mihawk&DazBones sooner or later.

And behind all this, Revo army has only Dragon so far...and the tranny commander that just got owned by WG's goddamn jailor.

I still think WG has the upper hand in all this stuff.Whitebeard looks like winning because after all thats their showtime.He requires these flashy scenes in order to look strong.
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Old 2009-09-21, 10:07   Link #166
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Hold it, you don't want to be labeled a One Piece/Luffy hater do ya?

There is a big difference between not liking one Chapter, and not liking any chapter at all, still read the series, and post about how you dont like the serieschapter in the process.

Either way, I’m with James, the Chapter was boring, Not Bad, but Boring, Oda just wanted to make a grand entrance with Luffy and in the process introduce humor once again that have been absent in the last 2 or 3 Chapters.
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Old 2009-09-21, 10:33   Link #167
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The main problem I see with Kuma sending them to those specific places on purpose is the intelligence: How should he know what exactly all the crewmembers are specialised in, and what exactly they need to improve. This seems to be some information, the WG (or anyone outside the crew itself) doesn't have.
He watched Oars + Moria vs. the Strawhats from some building, remember? It is not that hard to deduct after seeing how each of them fought, plus you are underestimating how much the world government already knows about their fighting styles. Consider how much information the Strawhats' bounty nicknames already give.

Last edited by p-kun; 2009-09-21 at 10:45.
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Old 2009-09-21, 10:34   Link #168
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
The main problem I see with Kuma sending them to those specific places on purpose is the intelligence: How should he know what exactly all the crewmembers are specialised in, and what exactly they need to improve. This seems to be some information, the WG (or anyone outside the crew itself) doesn't have.
He did watch the fight between Moria/Odz and the Strawhats at Thriller Bark so he should have been able to see all there abilities. Was beaten to it.
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Old 2009-09-21, 11:04   Link #169
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I actually had always assumed that Kuma did indeed choose where to send each of the Straw Hats. I figured that those large paw prints in the floor were kind of like warp pads that he planted across the world, and as such, sent each Straw Hat to each respective pad for his own purpose. I thought it was pretty obvious, personally.
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Old 2009-09-21, 11:49   Link #170
hkBattousai
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Originally Posted by lonewolf777 View Post
I actually had always assumed that Kuma did indeed choose where to send each of the Straw Hats. I figured that those large paw prints in the floor were kind of like warp pads that he planted across the world, and as such, sent each Straw Hat to each respective pad for his own purpose. I thought it was pretty obvious, personally.
Though, it is debatable if those pawn prints existed beforehand, or they got carved at the moment Kuma used his ability.
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Old 2009-09-21, 11:58   Link #171
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I'm sorry but are people actually debating over whether or not Kuma planned to send the strawhats to their different destinations. For goodness sake, nami the "weather master" went to Weatheria, that alone should be proof enough that this was all planned.
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Old 2009-09-21, 13:16   Link #172
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As far as Kuma vanishing the crew to those specific locations goes, I think it's best to say that yes, it was an orchestrated move (someone else mentioned the same idea last year as well, but I forget who). However, unless he's in cahoots with someone that can predict the future, I doubt that he planned the exact course of events that the crew would go through in those islands in advance (did Kuma actually send Luffy to Amazon Lily for the specific purpose of convincing its empress to take him to Impel Down (and even making her fall in love with him in the process)? I think not, especially since he told Luffy that they wouldn't meet again.....). If the theory of Kuma being one of Dragon's spies is true, then he probably sent the Straw-Hats to those islands so they wouldn't be involved in the upcoming war. Of course, if that WAS the case, then the plan backfired, seeing as Luffy's currently present in Marineford......




Anyway, if Kuma is truly a spy then maybe Emporio knows something about him, seeing as he's quite the knowledgeable shemale (though I guess this would also depend on whether or not Kuma allied himself with Dragon before Iva went to jail). We also still don't know what relationship the Bible bear has with the good Dr. Vegapunk.......
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Old 2009-09-21, 14:50   Link #173
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
I don't think there is anything to debate: It was clearly seen in manga and anime, that the prints came into existence in the very momet, Luffy (and the others) came down to earth.
How can you make sure of it?
May be, when Kuma launches his ability, a path between starting location and ending location is created, and at the end of this path the surface takes pawn shape by the pressure.

We still don't know detailed information about Kuma's ability. At the very first episodes, Luffy was getting hurt when he took physical blow, later it got stated that blows doesn't work on him because he was made of rubber. OK, I accept that this is not a good example, but I'm trying to say that some details about abilities doesn't need to make sense in real world and the form of the ability used in fight may put various techniques which shouldn't necessarily be what it looks like.

Do you remember the sea-kings that tried to eat Luffy just before he landed on that pawn mark? A mysterious and invisible spherical encapsulation that covers flying Luffy's body hit those monsters. How do you explain that invisible force? I don't know either...

Since Kuma pushes the air at super high velocities, the pawn mark which is hundreds of kilometers away is created at the very moment the ability is used. But interestingly, pushed body moves much slower that this pushed air. In my theory, that's the reason why that pawn mark was already there when Luffy landed.
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Old 2009-09-21, 15:21   Link #174
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Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
So kuma...he had all those islands on his mind as soon as he did this, and he has the ability to direct exactly how far the people he hits go? Highly highly highly doubt it. Also, you guys act like Kuma wants them to get stronger. Why in the hell would the shichibukai most loyal to the WG want to have the strawhats get stronger.

Also, the only places that i see as great fits for the people to land are nami and Franky. Zoro's place makes no sense, neither do most of the other ones. You could make these connections with any island they landed on.

Luffy's doesn't make sense either since most of you guys don't believe that luffy learned anything about haki on amazon lily.

The thought that kuma could push anyone to any exact location makes his devil fruit so overpowered it's not even funny.
I read a theory that relate to this on this thread, pretty interesting so try having a look around: http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=44787&page=3

I'll say this chapter is extremely boring, but compared to the ridiculousness of Bleach(unnecessary flashback and out-of-character ability) and Naruto(another chapter displaying how Sasuke is totally awesome for fending off a couple of the villages' strongest ninjas, might as well rename the manga), no.
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Old 2009-09-21, 18:04   Link #175
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The main problem I see with Kuma sending them to those specific places on purpose is the intelligence: How should he know what exactly all the crewmembers are specialised in, and what exactly they need to improve. This seems to be some information, the WG (or anyone outside the crew itself) doesn't have.
I think better way to explain this issue is with how Kuma's power may work. What if the Kuma himself doesn't have control over where people are sent, but rather the people themselves are making that decision subconsciously. Kuma's power would pick up on this and send the person to where it would be the most beneficial to them.
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Old 2009-09-21, 22:09   Link #176
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Originally Posted by hkBattousai View Post
Do you remember the sea-kings that tried to eat Luffy just before he landed on that pawn mark? A mysterious and invisible spherical encapsulation that covers flying Luffy's body hit those monsters. How do you explain that invisible force? I don't know either...

Since Kuma pushes the air at super high velocities, the pawn mark which is hundreds of kilometers away is created at the very moment the ability is used. But interestingly, pushed body moves much slower that this pushed air. In my theory, that's the reason why that pawn mark was already there when Luffy landed.
If you read and watched the anime and manga carefully, you would have realised that that Luffy was flying inside Kuma's paw bubble. Its not something 'mysterious', Kuma has been using paw bubbles all the while, in fact his ability is creating these paw bubbles.

This paw bubble deflects everything, ensuring the 'traveller' will reach the place Kuma is sending to.

And you can see that when Luffy landed on Amazon Lily, the paw bubble collided with the ground to create the paw imprint.
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I think better way to explain this issue is with how Kuma's power may work. What if the Kuma himself doesn't have control over where people are sent, but rather the people themselves are making that decision subconsciously. Kuma's power would pick up on this and send the person to where it would be the most beneficial to them.
Though your theory can be possible, I don't think its the case.

I don't think Sanji subconsciously wants to end up in the Okama kingdom, its more likely that he would end up in Amazon Lily or All Blue.
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Old 2009-09-22, 01:00   Link #177
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There is a big difference between not liking garbage Chapters, and not liking any chapter at all, still read the series, and post about how you don't like the crap writing in the process but praise the rare but good writing.
Edited your post for canon purposes.
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Old 2009-09-22, 01:25   Link #178
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^It's a little douchey to forcibly change someone's post to meet your standards, even for humourous purposes...

For instance:

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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I loved this chapter, it was the best ever. One Piece totally blows all the other Shounen series out of the water. I can't wait for Luffy to beat up Whitebeard, free Ace, and own all.
I have to say Mold, I completely disagree with your stance here....
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Old 2009-09-22, 09:42   Link #179
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I don't think Sanji subconsciously wants to end up in the Okama kingdom, its more likely that he would end up in Amazon Lily or All Blue.
not really, in the situation sanji was sent away, the most dominant emotion/feeling sub- as well as concious, was desperation over the fact that he was too weak to defend his nakama and thus the felt need to become stronger. that fact fits jursuns theory rather well
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Old 2009-09-22, 11:56   Link #180
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james, I cant find any humor in insulting a series, no matter how much you dont like the series or a chapter.

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Edited your post for canon purposes.
The problem is, that considering a Chapter "garbage" is totally subjective, and hence it is not Canon, as Canon is based on Objectivity.

And Based on someone labeling a Chapter Garbage, is usually made by those who falls under the category of not liking any chapter or hating the series. In other words someone that doesn’t like a chapter doesn’t go an label say chapter as Garbage. words usually used are "I didnt liek this chapter". "This Chapter sucked", "This Chapter Was boring".

I have read some good amount of mangas, And I never have ended up considering something as Garbage, is insulting to the person who puts his heart and effort on a product that not everybody is going to like, but it has people that do like it. and Considering One piece as Garbage (and that it is crap writing) is risible at best, here we are presented with the most successful shounen title to date, I doubt Garbage has this properties, or are you implying those people who like this series are also Garbage themselves?

Or you either don't know the consequences that your words can carry, or you do know these consequences and just do it for personal intentions.

Also, You should stop making yourself look like you don’t know what you are saying, unfortunately for you, Oda is a good writer inside this genre, but, not even the best of all the writers can please all the readers.
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