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Old 2009-09-23, 11:12   Link #5601
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Something I never understood was why Lelouch doesn't speak to Kallen in Ashford when he goes to meet the UFN. By not having her join him he was risking it all. She could a) die in battle against his army or b) break through his lines (which she did) and kill him, thus destroying Zero Requiem.

He had to know that she would cause a lot of problems if she wasn't on his side...Was it because even though she was kinda important her life was as important as Zero Requiem, and thus he could justify it if she was killed in battle?
If he allowed her to join him, her life would have been ruined same as his. By havinf Kallen remain his enemy, he guaranteed that she had a future once everything was over. Her dying against his mooks was unlikely at best, and she was never supposed to fight Suzaku. In other words, it was worth the risk to his plan.
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Old 2009-09-23, 11:15   Link #5602
Diedrupo
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I doubt the directors/writers were thinking too much when they went with that plan. It's really a stretch of the imagination that Lelouch miraculously planned for none of his former allies to survive somehow in that battle, including Kallen. That it somehow happened anyway, without any kind of intervention, is just bad writing.
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Old 2009-09-23, 11:31   Link #5603
Revolutionist
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
If he allowed her to join him, her life would have been ruined same as his. By havinf Kallen remain his enemy, he guaranteed that she had a future once everything was over. Her dying against his mooks was unlikely at best, and she was never supposed to fight Suzaku. In other words, it was worth the risk to his plan.
How was he guaranteeing anything when she could stop ZR and then she would be screwed along with the entire world because Schneizel would get his way.
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Old 2009-09-23, 11:35   Link #5604
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she was never supposed to fight Suzaku
Or is she? I thought Suzaku was supposed to "die" and Kallen doing it is a likely scenario.
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Old 2009-09-23, 11:39   Link #5605
bladeofdarkness
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not likely
considering that if all went according to plan, she would never have reached them (they were behind the shield)
lelouch intentionally kept them on different sides of the battlefield, and suzaku actually tries talking her out of fighting
there is nothing to suggest that lelouch planned for suzaku and kallen to fight, especially when you consider that suzaku is litteraly incapable of holding back in a fight
bad enough that lelouch ended up pitting two of the people he loves the most in a dual to the death due to his refusal to just tell kallen the truth
having him INTENTIONALLY do that is inconcivable
the plan may have called for suzaku to fake his death later on, but not in the middle of the pitch battle, and not against the only person who can actually kill him for real
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Old 2009-09-23, 12:02   Link #5606
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
How was he guaranteeing anything when she could stop ZR and then she would be screwed along with the entire world because Schneizel would get his way.
That's part of what "acceptable risk" means. Yes, she could stop the plan, but Lelouch bet on the fact that he could get around the problem, which he did.
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Old 2009-09-24, 10:34   Link #5607
Chiibi
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LELOUCH LIVES!!

I just hung out with him and the student council at a public pool! And Shirley was also there And then we started playing the game, "I'd Hit That". And I got an Ougi card and I was like ".....NO, I don't think so." And then.....I don't remember what happened after that....

wait......

.....okay, it's possible this may have just been a dream. But it was a really epic one.

Sorry for the spam. But it is (sadly) very very true and I thought the members here would really find it amusing.

Anyway.......new question: Do you think Lulu's popularity will last for decades like characters from anime of the nineties" (Rei Ayanami, Spike, Goku) ect?

I really hope so......because he's that amazing of a character and deserves to be remembered!!
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Old 2009-09-24, 15:06   Link #5608
snowdevil_crow
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You seriously had a dream like that?

That is quite possibly the best thing ever.

And he might, who knows?
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Old 2009-09-26, 04:08   Link #5609
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
LELOUCH LIVES!!

I just hung out with him and the student council at a public pool! And Shirley was also there And then we started playing the game, "I'd Hit That". And I got an Ougi card and I was like ".....NO, I don't think so." And then.....I don't remember what happened after that....

wait......

.....okay, it's possible this may have just been a dream. But it was a really epic one.

Sorry for the spam. But it is (sadly) very very true and I thought the members here would really find it amusing.

Anyway.......new question: Do you think Lulu's popularity will last for decades like characters from anime of the nineties" (Rei Ayanami, Spike, Goku) ect?

I really hope so......because he's that amazing of a character and deserves to be remembered!!
Lol, interesting dream you had there. Funneh!

Well, I sincerely doubt it. Evangelion has lasted for a while, even until now, there are movies of Evangelion rolling out into the public, and selling very well too. Goku...well Dragon Ball's popularity in the world is incredibly high, plus the fact that Dragon Ball has more episodes than the twenty sitcoms put together.

Spike Spiegel... to be fair, Cowboy Bebop was way more famous in the States than Lelouch, making him more long-lasting.

Fact is, Code Geass is a great show, but it appeals to a different source of audience than Dragon Ball, and it is not as popular in any other country like Cowboy Bebop or Evangelion.
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Old 2009-09-27, 09:17   Link #5610
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Well I have seen the first season, will start second soon. But I must say that I really don't like Lelouch =/

He reminds me of Light from Death Note... he started with good intentions but in the end turned in killing machine and started to use people...

Besides what an idiot! To have such great power and go around joking "kill him, kill her, kill them all!". For geniuse as he tries to be, he really failed.

I'm not big Euphie fan but that was just horrible! And afterwards to make use of it like this? I so wish that everyone would find out the truth behind this accident!
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Old 2009-09-27, 09:28   Link #5611
Cipher
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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
Well I have seen the first season, will start second soon. But I must say that I really don't like Lelouch =/

He reminds me of Light from Death Note... he started with good intentions but in the end turned in killing machine and started to use people...

Besides what an idiot! To have such great power and go around joking "kill him, kill her, kill them all!". For geniuse as he tries to be, he really failed.

I'm not big Euphie fan but that was just horrible! And afterwards to make use of it like this? I so wish that everyone would find out the truth behind this accident!
He didn't intentionally kill Euphemia, did he?
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Old 2009-09-27, 10:04   Link #5612
morbosfist
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He didn't intentionally kill Euphemia, did he?
Actually, he did. What he didn't do intentionally was turn her into Princess Massacre.
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Old 2009-09-27, 10:13   Link #5613
bladeofdarkness
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though he DID plan to make her do something that would have turned her into a monster in the public eyes when he came there
he may not have ended up killing as many people
but he planned to make her hated by the entire population of japan all the same

the fact that he changed his mind after seeing just how far she was willing to go gives him SOME points
but doesnt change the fact that he came there with that goal in mind
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Old 2009-09-27, 10:29   Link #5614
kitten320
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
though he DID plan to make her do something that would have turned her into a monster in the public eyes when he came there
he may not have ended up killing as many people
but he planned to make her hated by the entire population of japan all the same

the fact that he changed his mind after seeing just how far she was willing to go gives him SOME points
but doesnt change the fact that he came there with that goal in mind
Exactly, all Euphie wanted was peace but he went barsek because now he won't be able to become a hero or something along those lines. I really started to dislike him at that point. Till then I was fine with him.

But as you said it does give some points to him since he did change his mind, but still he was too careless and in the end he did put her in bad light and made use out of it.
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Old 2009-09-27, 10:37   Link #5615
bladeofdarkness
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its not about being a "hero"
lelouch isnt motivated by any desire to be a hero
pretending to be a hero is a MEANS TO AN END
he wants to destroy britannia as revenge for his mothers death (the end result of destroying britannia would be a better world for nunnaly)
euphie would have taken away his army and support base, and made it impossible for him to achieve his revenge
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Old 2009-09-27, 10:41   Link #5616
kitten320
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
its not about being a "hero"
lelouch isnt motivated by any desire to be a hero
pretending to be a hero is a MEANS TO AN END
he wants to destroy britannia as revenge for his mothers death (the end result of destroying britannia would be a better world for nunnaly)
euphie would have taken away his army and support base, and made it impossible for him to achieve his revenge
Yeh... I have said it wrongly, my bad. You are right.
But still no reason to kill an innocent person who wished him all the best even when knowing his true indentity and not betraying him until the end.
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Old 2009-09-27, 11:00   Link #5617
Nogitsune
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If we wanted to blame Lelouch for shooting people simply because they loved him, then we'd have to kick his butt in episode three already. After all, Clovis came to Area 11 for that reason alone (granted, Lelouch didn't know that, but he never stopped to think about it, either).
If we blame Lelouch for killing innocent people, on the other hand...well, Euphie certainly wasn't the first of those, either.
Of course, being ready to ruin the repuation of your sweet younger half-sister is one level higher still, but Lelouch made his intentions clear from the start. You can't expect more of him than to change his mind.
That he used her death to further his goals is the one thing I don't have any problem at all with here. Euphie is dead - the only people he hurts with what he does afterwards are those who loved her and are still alive, and since Nunally is one of those, it shows how important this is to him. Also, using people's deaths is Lelouch's way of honouring them. He "spills yet more blood so that the blood already spilled was not in vain".
You don't have to like him for it, but I don't think the incident involving Euphie showed much about him that wasn't already visible before.
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Old 2009-09-27, 14:10   Link #5618
Betteroffer
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
though he DID plan to make her do something that would have turned her into a monster in the public eyes when he came there
he may not have ended up killing as many people
but he planned to make her hated by the entire population of japan all the same
By shooting him with a needle gun. Not other people. HIM. In Lelouch's mind, this may have been some form of atonement for what he was planning.

Also, we don't know what he was going to do beyond this. If she comes out of her Geass trance and realizes she shot her beloved half-brother, then chances are she would be yelling things like "Oh, god Lelouch, Lelouch I'm sorry brother, I'm so sorry!" which would be incriminating to say the least. It is probable that he would also make her forget he was Zero, and even about him and Nunally being alive, which would lessen the impact of what she did considerably, since she would be lashing out at her brother's murderer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the fact that he changed his mind after seeing just how far she was willing to go gives him SOME points
but doesnt change the fact that he came there with that goal in mind
Ironically, Euphemia herself says that she really isn't giving up anything important to her at all (I just wanna say "Ouch" for Cornelia), even when Lelouch's main point against her was that she was just arbitrarily handing out benevolence.* Though I loathe the phrase, "A benevolent tyrant is still a tyrant."

Also, keep in mind that this was only in a miniscule area of Japan. The rest of the country was goin to remain the same at best, as were the other 17 Areas.

And as always, there's my concerns with the SAZ plunging the other Areas into chaos and kickstarting the Third Pacific War.

Yes, Lelouch was a prick, but he was a prick who thought about the consequences of his actions.

* Funny story: My grandmother has been watching the series with me, and after this scene she said "Well now, I don't much think I like Euphemia." and we went on to discuss the issue of her making the SAZ for personal reasons and how it was a pretty scary thing for many Britannians to see their government do. This was before I had discussed my deeper issues with the global setup with her.
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Old 2009-09-27, 14:18   Link #5619
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
By shooting him with a needle gun. Not other people. HIM. In Lelouch's mind, this may have been some form of atonement for what he was planning.

Also, we don't know what he was going to do beyond this. If she comes out of her Geass trance and realizes she shot her beloved half-brother, then chances are she would be yelling things like "Oh, god Lelouch, Lelouch I'm sorry brother, I'm so sorry!" which would be incriminating to say the least. It is probable that he would also make her forget he was Zero, and even about him and Nunally being alive, which would lessen the impact of what she did considerably, since she would be lashing out at her brother's murderer.
he was going to make her shoot him PUBLICLLY

it would destroy the SAZ, and destroy her name in the eyes of the japanese people and the world
the very people she had given up her title for, would view her as a monster
and all because lelouch has to have his revenge
he may have not ended up killing all those people, but euphie, and everything she'd ever worked and stood for, would be destroyed

Quote:
Ironically, Euphemia herself says that she really isn't giving up anything important to her at all (I just wanna say "Ouch" for Cornelia), even when Lelouch's main point against her was that she was just arbitrarily handing out benevolence. Though I loathe the phrase, "A benevolent tyrant is still a tyrant."

Also, keep in mind that this was only in a miniscule area of Japan. The rest of the country was goin to remain the same at best, as were the other 17 Areas.

And as always, there's my concerns with the SAZ plunging the other Areas into chaos and kickstarting the Third Pacific War.

Yes, Lelouch was a prick, but he was a prick who thought about the consequences of his actions.
the look in his eyes during the massacre would beg to differ

the SAZ was going to be the entire area surrounding mount fuji
anyone was free to join it just by filling out paperwork
it was exactly what suzaku was talking about by change from within the system
the fact that it wouldnt be all of japan, or that it might lead to similer events in other areas, is not the point
it was the first real step in improving the lives of the numbers
it wasnt perfect, but it was a start

and lelouch NEEDED to fuck it up because if it was allowed to continue, HE would never have his revenge
because, as we all know, the entire world revolves around lelouch
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Old 2009-09-27, 14:20   Link #5620
eaglei3
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Exactly, all Euphie wanted was peace but he went barsek because now he won't be able to become a hero or something along those lines. I really started to dislike him at that point. Till then I was fine with him.

But as you said it does give some points to him since he did change his mind, but still he was too careless and in the end he did put her in bad light and made use out of it.
To be fair though, Lelouch was torn at this point. He didn't want to disappoint Euphie and her dream, yet he knew Euphie was pretty Naive and that her ideals most likely would not have worked in that the rest of Britannia wouldn't have had a problem curb stomping a disarmed Japan.
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