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Old 2009-09-23, 23:00   Link #1961
FateAnomaly
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The problem i have with religion is that i think man are too egoistic to think that a being capable of creating the universe (if it exist) will accord preferential treatment to man. Man is only better than mere animals by their intelligence. However, to a being with infinite intelligence there will be no perceived difference between man and animals. It also would not need any pointless worship from mere man.
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Old 2009-09-23, 23:06   Link #1962
Cipher
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
The problem i have with religion is that i think man are too egoistic to think that a being capable of creating the universe (if it exist) will accord preferential treatment to man. Man is only better than mere animals by their intelligence. However, to a being with infinite intelligence there will be no perceived difference between man and animals. It also would not need any pointless worship from mere man.
If it was all truly pointless, then there was not even any need to create man and animals. Because you can't deny the fact that we're already created, the question should be why.
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Old 2009-09-23, 23:11   Link #1963
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
What more will my age bring? What revelations are to come that could somehow shake this stance?
Write that down somewhere, along with your current way of thinking, and don't look at it again for two to five years. Time changes things in a manner that you can't predict and may not even realize. Everything changes.
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Old 2009-09-23, 23:20   Link #1964
Liddo-kun
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
If your truly satisfied with the current world, we cannot help but feel disappointed. This world is not "beautiful". Come on people, why don't you, for even an event of a second, view the world on the face of poverty? of the starving? of those majority who couldn't care less for "beliefs" but for shelter?
I see the world as a beautiful place because I'm living a comfortable life, and I intend to keep it that way by working hard.
Living for the sake of enjoying life is not a bad thing.

Not my job to mourn the suffering of others (people who aren't relatives or friends).
No offense ok.
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Old 2009-09-23, 23:29   Link #1965
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Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
I see the world as a beautiful place because I'm living a comfortable life, and I intend to keep it that way by working hard.
Living for the sake of enjoying life is not a bad thing.

Not my job to mourn the suffering of others (people who aren't relatives or friends).
No offense ok.
None taken, serving gratitude. The fault lies with my own presumption that people's self-interest were same and that they just needed realization. I've come to realize the subjectivity in this, my thanks.
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Old 2009-09-23, 23:38   Link #1966
FateAnomaly
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If it was all truly pointless, then there was not even any need to create man and animals. Because you can't deny the fact that we're already created, the question should be why.
You just emphasized my point that man think they are special.
We are created because under the laws that are created we had the probability to exist and by luck of the draw we did.
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Old 2009-09-24, 00:27   Link #1967
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You just emphasized my point that man think they are special.
We are created because under the laws that are created we had the probability to exist and by luck of the draw we did.
The world was suitably designed through luck? Have you ever pondered why everything felt so "lucky" for us? Why we have oxygen, a ground and an originally balanced ecosystem?.. ...hm..but yeah...well it could be that tiny .01% that made us.

....Sorry, I'm not sure how to interact with this idea of "we exist because of luck". I'm hoping someone else could share their thoughts.
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Old 2009-09-24, 00:47   Link #1968
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Write that down somewhere, along with your current way of thinking, and don't look at it again for two to five years. Time changes things in a manner that you can't predict and may not even realize. Everything changes.
True. But it doesn't change us in the same ways. For example, despite TLR's... claims? I'm less inclined toward navel-gazing now than I was at 17.
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Old 2009-09-24, 00:48   Link #1969
Siddyus
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You see 6.9 billion draws as luck? Sorry, I'm not sure how to interact with this idea of "we exist because of luck". I'm hoping someone else could share their thoughts.
Yes, it is no miracle we exist. Like the other countless of species of many different organisms that existed before us. By some random chance in the evolutionary path. We came out. Now if you think we were actually created to have a purpose here. Then how would you explain the other countless of creatures that existed hundreds of millions of years before us? I mean, if we are special. Shouldnt we be the first ever to inhabit this planet?

Also, If you look at it. Our only difference from animals that exists with us is our brain. That brain makes out this thoughts that we are special. But in reality. We are no special as an elephant would be. I mean, if we are really God's special creation then why are we physically weaker compared to most animals out there? why cant we swim in the deep sea without devices to support us? We only survived this long because of our brain. And that doesnt make us special. Every species has their own special abilities. Thats all there is to it. IMO.

And IMO the only purpose we exist. We only exist to survive.

Quote:
The world was suitably designed through luck? Have you ever pondered why everything felt so "lucky" for us? Why we have oxygen, a ground and an originally balanced ecosystem?.. ...hm..but yeah...well it could be that tiny .01% that made us.
It wasnt designed at all. It so happens it formed as the third planet in our star system and it was sufficiently far from its parent star thanks to the gravitation influence by Jupiter. And our ecosystem isnt balanced at all. It is constantly changing. Planets like our Earth isnt the only planet of its class in this vast universe. There is no proof yet. But if you think logically. You'd see its obviousness.
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Old 2009-09-24, 00:50   Link #1970
iLney
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
You just emphasized my point that man think they are special.
That alone makes us special. And the fact that you will probably disagree also makes us special.

Edit: Can someone answer me this? Suppose that you have lived for 80 years, and today is your last day. A nice house, lovely scenery, deep blue sky. Your family is around you. Your son is a successful man. His wife is a wonderful women who born him 2 beautiful daughters who are attending some prestigious school. Friends, relatives ect... are all around you. You have 2 more seconds to live. In the first second, the picture changes. There is no friends, relatives or such. Your son is serving 20 years in prison. Your 2 granddaughters are prostituting to make end meets and at the same time, pay for your medication. The house is reek of pee. One of the granddaughter receives a phone call and is about to leave.

1 second left. Now think. If you are in that position, what exactly is the difference between those two situations?

I see none, but I know there must be a big difference. What is it?

Last edited by iLney; 2009-09-24 at 01:11.
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Old 2009-09-24, 00:54   Link #1971
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Siddyus View Post
Yes, it is no miracle we exist. Like the other countless of species of many different organisms that existed before us. By some random chance in the evolutionary path. We came out. Now if you think we were actually created to have a purpose here. Then how would you explain the other countless of creatures that existed hundreds of millions of years before us? I mean, if we are special. Shouldnt we be the first ever to inhabit this planet?

Also, If you look at it. Our only difference from animals that exists with us is our brain. That brain makes out this thoughts that we are special. But in reality. We are no special as an elephant would be. I mean, if we are really God's special creation then why are we physically weaker compared to most animals out there? why cant we swim in the deep sea without devices to support us? We only survived this long because of our brain. And that doesnt make us special. Every species has their own special abilities. Thats all there is to it. IMO.

And IMO the only purpose we exist. We only exist to survive.
Hm..I don't know..To make things simpler, we really don't need to exist if its only survive. You do understand that we can't forever live? As our grandparents have done before us, they have died.
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Old 2009-09-24, 00:58   Link #1972
Siddyus
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we really don't need to exist if its only survive.
That statement is contradictory.

Anyway, we die but before we die we reproduce. So in a way we are still alive in the form of our future off springs. We adapted this from our microbial ancestors. An efficient way to survive IMO.
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:00   Link #1973
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
The world was suitably designed through luck? Have you ever pondered why everything felt so "lucky" for us? Why we have oxygen, a ground and an originally balanced ecosystem?.. ...hm..but yeah...well it could be that tiny .01% that made us.

....Sorry, I'm not sure how to interact with this idea of "we exist because of luck". I'm hoping someone else could share their thoughts.
When you have billions and billions of pachinko balls thrashing through the pegs.... and only one needs to land in just the right spot: Anthropic principle variant. Eventually one will. Deep time, billions of experiments, tries, false starts, restarts. We recently were able to finally spot a smaller solid surface planet in another star system (after finding a few hundred gas giants). Organic life shows itself to be amazingly adept once started... however, intelligent life able to create tools and self-reflect is yet another cascade of pachinko balls to hit the few "good spots". So we may be rather rare in the galaxy - best not to screw it up.
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:01   Link #1974
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Siddyus View Post
That statement is contradictory.

Anyway, we die but before we die we reproduce. So in a way we are still alive in the form of our future off springs. We adapted this from our microbial ancestors. An efficient way to survive IMO.
Visibly, our children are not us. But have you ever thought of "non-existence"?

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
When you have billions and billions of pachinko balls thrashing through the pegs.... and only one needs to land in just the right spot: Anthropic principle variant. Eventually one will. Deep time, billions of experiments, tries, false starts, restarts. We recently were able to finally spot a smaller solid surface planet in another star system (after finding a few hundred gas giants). Organic life shows itself to be amazingly adept once started... however, intelligent life able to create tools and self-reflect is yet another cascade of pachinko balls to hit the few "good spots". So we may be rather rare in the galaxy - best not to screw it up.
You do have a point there. If you think about it, time is limitless(...so yeah..it could be that tiny percentage...(big percentage now, I guess---it just depends whether it was intentional or not)) I respect your theory, but it still doesn't eliminate mine. Let's just hope that one of our "tickets", on our deaths, are the right one.

(as the one and only arguing theist, I feel pretty pressured here )

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Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Edit: Can someone answer me this? Suppose that you have lived for 80 years, and today is your last day. A nice house, lovely scenery, deep blue sky. Your family is around you. Your son is a successful man. His wife is a wonderful women who born him 2 beautiful daughters who are attending some prestigious school. Friends, relatives ect... are all around you. You have 2 more seconds to live. In the first second, the picture changes. There is no friends, relatives or such. Your son is serving 20 years in prison. Your 2 granddaughters are prostituting to make end meets and at the same time, pay for your medication. The house is reek of pee. One of the granddaughter receives a phone call and is about to leave.

1 second left. Now think. If you are in that position, what exactly is the difference between those two situations?

I see none, but I know there must be a big difference. What is it?
I also don't know how to engage this....it really depends on whether I care about my family or what....but usually I'd just think I'm mentally ill and is hallucinating. The difference is... "satisfaction"?

Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-24 at 01:21.
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:14   Link #1975
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Visibly, our children are not us. But have you ever thought of "non-existence"?


You do have a point there. If you think about it, time is limitless(...so yeah..it could be that tiny percentage...(big percentage now, I guess)) I respect your theory, but it still doesn't eliminate mine. Let's just hope that one our "tickets", on our deaths, are the right one.

(as the one and only arguing theist, I feel pretty pressured here )
Well, if I understand your position.. you're pretty much a Deist? One who thinks the game was initiated by an entity but left to its own devices afterwards as the balls cascade through probability? This particular universe seems driven to produce eddies of complexity where it seems driven to produce the conditions for life. So even if it was an initial "configuration and lever throw", the odds seem highly stacked for life and ergo - us.

This is what some call the Anthropic Principle -- and it usually invokes a multi-verse where uncountable universes bubble up in the cosmic "foam"... most are sterile, but a few do quite nicely. The actual hypothesis is highly speculative and not tooooo far removed from where I assign the Prime Mover idea you seem to be espousing.
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:19   Link #1976
Siddyus
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Visibly, our children are not us. But have you ever thought of "non-existence"?
We pass our traits and features to our children. Isnt that visible enough? and I have not and please enlighten me about this "non-existence".
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:27   Link #1977
Reckoner
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@Cipher

Nonexistence is not a truly conceivable concept by us. We know the meaning, but you cannot visualize it or comprehend it, because then you'd give it form and thus it is no longer "nonexistence" as it has now become something. I posted this a page or two ago in responding to TRL's challenge...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Write that down somewhere, along with your current way of thinking, and don't look at it again for two to five years. Time changes things in a manner that you can't predict and may not even realize. Everything changes.
I've written letters to myself in such a manner. What's remarkable is that my thinking HAS not changed. This truly scares me actually.
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:35   Link #1978
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Well, if I understand your position.. you're pretty much a Deist? One who thinks the game was initiated by an entity but left to its own devices afterwards as the balls cascade through probability? This particular universe seems driven to produce eddies of complexity where it seems driven to produce the conditions for life. So even if it was an initial "configuration and lever throw", the odds seem highly stacked for life and ergo - us.
Nope, I already told you, I'm a theist, (specifically) a Muslim. I believe that God still controls us from time to time depending on his will but I also believe that we are given the ability to choose. It's ironic, but I disagree with general extremity. I believe in moderation and controls/limitations. I'm obviously against terrorism and violence...but I don't deny rebellion---there will be times when they're needed. The main difference between us is that I mostly connect religion/beliefs to society while you connect it to science. Though my religion does support science...as sometimes it "luckily" provides religious evidence.

If your a deist, have you ever thought where God went? Did he just started relaxing somewhere? IMO, w/o God's continuing concentration, (a no-absence) the universe will cease to exist.



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Originally Posted by Siddyus View Post
We pass our traits and features to our children. Isnt that visible enough? and I have not and please enlighten me about this "non-existence".
If its not me, Its not me....(that is my apprehension). Its like one thing can't exist at different locations at the same time. "Non-existence" is itself....w/o existence...(don't look at me for answers, I'm still thinking about it. )

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
@Cipher

Nonexistence is not a truly conceivable concept by us. We know the meaning, but you cannot visualize it or comprehend it, because then you'd give it form and thus it is no longer "nonexistence" as it has now become something. I posted this a page or two ago in responding to TRL's challenge...
If you put it literally, yeah...but I'm just talking about... a "no-life".
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:44   Link #1979
Icehawk
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The world was suitably designed through luck? Have you ever pondered why everything felt so "lucky" for us? Why we have oxygen, a ground and an originally balanced ecosystem?.. ...hm..but yeah...well it could be that tiny .01% that made us.

....Sorry, I'm not sure how to interact with this idea of "we exist because of luck". I'm hoping someone else could share their thoughts.
Vexx pretty much put it best. When you step back and try to consider the universe on the vast scale that it really is, that we exist where we are and how we are out of what you might consider as "chance", isn't so difficult to swallow. Science in its various fields of biology, astronomy, particle physics, etc, has ultimately allowed us enough *consistantly verifiable* data about our existance and the universe to know that it, at the very least *does not require* a divine intelligence behind it for things to be as they are.

Even if there was some sort of "godly" power behind it, in all likelyhood, it wouldnt be any of the gods as they are described in any of the worlds various religions because how they have been described does not jive with any of the consistantly verifiable data that we currently have of the universe.
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:51   Link #1980
Cipher
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Vexx pretty much put it best. When you step back and try to consider the universe on the vast scale that it really is, that we exist where we are and how we are out of what you might consider as "chance", isn't so difficult to swallow. Science has ultimately allowed us enough *consistantly verifiable* data about our existance and the universe to know that it, at the very least *does not require* a divine intelligence behind it for things to be as they are.

Even if there was some sort of "godly" power behind it, in all likelyhood, it wouldnt be any of the gods as they are described in any of the worlds various religions because how they have been described does not jive with any of the consistantly verifiable data that we currently have of the universe.
Like I've said:"...hm..but yeah..it could be that .01%"(in truth, adding time as an unlimited variable, possibly 100% already.) The only missing factor is "when"----a factor that could be controlled by a powerful entity.

I am not removing the "automatic" as a possibility, but when I try to connect it to complex society/emotions/ and individual experience, it "feels"---using my intuition--lacking.
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