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Old 2009-09-24, 10:36   Link #2001
Siddyus
The Insidious
 
 
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Impressive well-thought explanation. The only thing I can say is that this isn't a scientific vs. religious debate, this is a science vs. science debate. Both "scientific" and "religious" theories are both theories---perhaps the latter doesn't coincide with present understood reality but "reality" itself is another argument. The presence of God are quite valid scientific theories...its just a matter of difference in origins/innovators. Darwin Vs. Abraham perhaps?
Umm, since when religion became a "theory"? for all I know. People view it as it as the real thing. That everything that is stated in their holy book really happened. No proof needed. And the presence of God has never been valid yet scientifically. There is just no way to ever validate it.

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Christians' God is a man named Jesus. ( I understand "the three beings in one" concept but still...this is the fact.)
No, Christianity's God is God/The Father. Jesus is God's son and the saviour of our race.

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I've actually been waiting for these types of questions. I might as well include these questions: "Why does God let people suffer?" "Why does he let children live in poverty?".


This is what I mean by a "test". A test on "faith"(believing in the less tangible), "actions"(good or bad actions), and the situational "fate" he has created to test if others hwere to react well-enough upon oters' ill fates. The complexity of Allah is bothersome(we truly don't know how he manages humanity and what all of his purposes are...what we can only depend on is "faith")....but it does show "wit" in some aspects.
A test? I'd say that is BS. If he is "all merciful" and benevolent. He should have just forgave us long ago. All I can say is. Religion is self contradicting. As flawed as the humans who first thought of it.

Quote:
This is the value of independence. Your out there to save yourselves. You choose: "Heaven" or "Hell"?
He gave us independence. Yet he made a "hell" so unbelievers would be punished. Then whats the point of our independence then if our so-called God only desires for use to believe on him and be faithful even though he already had forsaken us?
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Last edited by Siddyus; 2009-09-24 at 10:52.
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Old 2009-09-24, 10:40   Link #2002
SeedFreedom
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
There are limitless things that science can't explain. They may provide theories but explanations need "clear" solid truths.


Don't worry, I'm not a religious extremist/fanatic---I actually despise that because its so paradoxical.

Just an important point, the three do not share the same God. I've studied Christianity and Judaism quite well that I've understood the real differences between these three religions of the book (of course,the things I've studied might have been actually been false themselves---enlighten if it is so). (Christians please don't kill me) Christians' God is a man named Jesus. ( I understand "the three beings in one" concept but still...this is the fact.) With Judaism, they're God is only exclusively theirs, outsiders may not join their religion (might have changed over years but still..it was or is exclusive.)


I've actually been waiting for these types of questions. I might as well include these questions: "Why does God let people suffer?" "Why does he let children live in poverty?".

This is what I mean by a "test". A test on "faith"(believing in the less tangible), "actions"(good or bad actions), and the situational "fate" he has created to test if others hwere to react well-enough upon oters' ill fates. The complexity of Allah is bothersome(we truly don't know how he manages humanity and what all of his purposes are...what we can only depend on is "faith")....but it does show "wit" in some aspects.


Haha...he's not there to save you. This is the value of independence. Your out there to save yourselves. You choose: "Heaven" or "Hell"? But Islam's God has been almost extremely described as "very merciful". Even a ridiculousamount of murders (lets say , 20 thousand?) could be forgiven if the murderer would truly change.
Personally, i find "God did it" a cheap way out of explaining the workings of the universe. Sure science has not always been right. In fact it often needs to be updated, tweaked, or corrected, but that leads us to more answers, and more questions, and more answers. We are always growing and learning instead of just "it is because it is".


If god isn't going to save me, why does he give me temptation and weakness and doubt if he knows i can't fight it without a strong sign? Freedom is not worth damnation if he gives me freedom to choose the wrong path and does nothing to help me onto the right one. Of course to clarify i am only speaking about the "You must believe in god and no other" rule he has. If i have harmed others or have been a general "bad" person all my life i don't expect him to save me, religious or not.
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Old 2009-09-24, 10:53   Link #2003
Let'sFightingLove
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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
If i have harmed others or have been a general "bad" person all my life i don't expect him to save me, religious or not.
Personally, I believe that has to do with the fact god does not exist, not whether or not you're deluded enough to believe in a benevolent sky wizard passing judgement onto human kind.
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Old 2009-09-24, 11:00   Link #2004
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post

Poverty is beautiful? Do you truly believe this?

On Groups of living things, I understand where your coming from. But there are society norms we have to consider. I've eaten "chicken" for as long as I can remember, and yet I don't feel any regret towards consuming them. It is pretty justifiable---society norm-wise. I focus more on humanity because I've regarded them as the most influential, and therefore, sadly but true, " more important" beings. As selfish(note: there is no such thing as true selflessness) as it may seem, Islam had let me realize that animals, the world and nature are there for our own existence. This doesn't mean we shouldn't respect these "creations". By respecting them, regardless of justifiable intent(consuming), we respect what God has given to us, and therefore respect God.
No, I don't believe poverty is beautiful. I believe it is fairly insignificant and not worth my consideration in judging the Earth as a whole. I'd also like to point out that economically viable individuals can be wrought with suffering worse than impoverished ones.

Humans are not the most influential beings on the planet nor are they the most important, to think otherwise is arrogance. Animals and nature there for our own existence? We ARE animals... What you're saying doesn't really make any sense to me.

Also, if you do not eat a living thing you will die, this goes for every animal, so that is a moot point.

Instead of respecting the existence of a questionable entity, why not respect the Earth for what it is? Stop thinking in an anthropocentric manner and embrace the whole spectrum of nature. Whether or not a god exists, it is a very remarkable thing.

Last edited by ChainLegacy; 2009-09-24 at 11:12.
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Old 2009-09-24, 11:14   Link #2005
monster
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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Im a bit confused here. Maybe i don't understand this sentence correctly. Right now i don't see anything that can't be explained by science, therefore i don't have a belief.
You said earlier that you'd need to see a miracle before you can believe in God. Then you said since God refused to show such a miracle, then faith must not be important to his plan. What I'm trying to say is that faith becomes more important when there is no miracle to be seen. Since without a miracle, there is only faith that can make you believe in God.

In other words, if you see neither God himself nor other undeniable proof of God's existence (such as an unexplainable miracle in your case), yet you are still certain of his existence, that is only possible through faith. And that's why faith becomes more important, rather than less, by God choosing not to show a miracle.
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Old 2009-09-24, 11:23   Link #2006
Cipher
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First of all, this is getting out of hand. I started discussing less-flamy topics but it still ended to this. We will definitely find no compromise if we're discussing very subjective issues. My last suggestion is to always keep that strong conviction on your faith because what truly matters are your actions. (I'm hoping a moderator/admin would close this thread already).



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Originally Posted by Siddyus View Post
Umm, since when religion became a "theory"? for all I know. People view it as it as the real thing. That everything that is stated in their holy book really happened. No proof needed. And the presence of God has never been valid yet scientifically. There is just no way to ever validate it.
Knowing is never the same as believing.


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No, Christianity's God is God/The Father. Jesus is God's son and the saviour of our race.
Are you christian?
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A test? I'd say that is BS. If he is "all merciful" and benevolent. He should have just forgave us long ago. All I can say is. Religion is self contradicting. As flawed as the humans who first thought of it.
I did not say he is ultimately merciful---that would be the complete essence of stupidity. Like I've said, an extremity in anything is the wrong way of doing things. Moderation is best.

Quote:
He gave us independence. Yet he made a "hell" so unbelievers would be punished. Then whats the point of our independence then if our so-called God only desires for use to believe on him and be faithful even though he already had forsaken us?
I did not say that "unbelievers will be punished". What matters most are actions. Although Honestly, there is no definite line on the possibility of one going to hell or heaven."God only knows."


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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
Personally, i find "God did it" a cheap way out of explaining the workings of the universe. Sure science has not always been right. In fact it often needs to be updated, tweaked, or corrected, but that leads us to more answers, and more questions, and more answers. We are always growing and learning instead of just "it is because it is".
It really is highly more complex than "It is because it is." Ironically, it is so complex that it cannot and will not be clearly defined by science. It is more complex than science, or human understanding, in that some people are prone to accept "it is because it is". I, for one, don't agree with that mentality.
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If god isn't going to save me, why does he give me temptation and weakness and doubt if he knows i can't fight it without a strong sign? Freedom is not worth damnation if he gives me freedom to choose the wrong path and does nothing to help me onto the right one. Of course to clarify i am only speaking about the "You must believe in god and no other" rule he has. If i have harmed others or have been a general "bad" person all my life i don't expect him to save me, religious or not.
As I've continuously said, God is not there to save you.
Regarding having to teach humans what is right and what is wrong, I believe that this is actually more natural. Belief isn't as important as actions taken.


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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
No, I don't believe poverty is beautiful. I believe it is fairly insignificant and not worth my consideration in judging the Earth as a whole.
As insignificant as North Korea's nukes? As insignificant as someone-who-you don't-know's life?

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Humans are not the most influential beings on the planet nor are they the most important, to think otherwise is arrogance. Animals and nature there for our own existence? We ARE animals... What you're saying doesn't really make any sense to me.
...I think you have to use more of the "norms". Humans obviously have the most "power" on earth. And about the animals vs. humans, well...we have to create a line between them...considering the difference in power.

Quote:
Instead of respecting the existence of a questionable entity, why not respect the Earth for what it is. Stop thinking in a anthropocentric manner and embrace the whole spectrum of nature. Whether or not a god exists, it is a very remarkable thing.
You're telling me to have a "forced satisfaction"? I can't just let things be, I am human because I choose to move.
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Old 2009-09-24, 11:35   Link #2007
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
And what?



Jump to conclusion much? Just because I didn't give a reason doesn't mean I didn't have one. I mentioned my faith as matter of fact. Not as a rebuttal against non-Catholic nor to proselytize them, not a justification of the Catholic denomination; but merely stating a fact that I am Catholic.
I'm not attacking your viewpoints, just saying that it serves little purpose to just state something and not discuss why you believe in such things. I could care less what you believe in, it is none of my business. However, this thread would be more interesting if people could explain how they arrived at certain viewpoints rather just stating they have them.

If not this becomes simply a listing thread, and I find those very pointless in forums.
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Old 2009-09-24, 11:44   Link #2008
RadiantBeam
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Are you christian?
I'm Christian, and I have to back him up. I was always taught that God was the Father and a totally seperate being from us, humanity, and from his Son. Jesus was God's son born of the Virgin Mary, and he died for our sins. God and Jesus are two seperate entities, according to what I've been taught.
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Old 2009-09-24, 11:53   Link #2009
iLney
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
I also don't know how to engage this....it really depends on whether I care about my family or what....but usually I'd just think I'm mentally ill and is hallucinating. The difference is... "satisfaction"?
I am only interested in your mind at the last second of your life: does the time you live before that matter or not? What constitutes your "satisfaction?"

I think I didn't say it correctly. Imagine this: instead of 2 seconds, let's make it 5 minutes. Keep the first picture. This time, a group of people enter the house, kill the son, beat up your friends, rape your granddaughters, burns the house down.... while you are lying there, watch, hear and feel: the scream, the terror, the destruction... Now would you rather die just before all of that happens or cling on those 5 minutes. Tell me.
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Old 2009-09-24, 11:56   Link #2010
Proto
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I'm Christian, and I have to back him up. I was always taught that God was the Father and a totally seperate being from us, humanity, and from his Son. Jesus was God's son born of the Virgin Mary, and he died for our sins. God and Jesus are two seperate entities, according to what I've been taught.
Gee, why do they teach kids in the chuch this days? it's the mighty mistery of the holy trinity! Think of it as a single class with 3 instances, or as a single operative system with three interfaces.
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Old 2009-09-24, 12:01   Link #2011
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
As insignificant as North Korea's nukes? As insignificant as someone-who-you don't-know's life?


...I think you have to use more of the "norms". Humans obviously have the most "power" on earth. And about the animals vs. humans, well...we have to create a line between them...considering the difference in power.


You're telling me to have a "forced satisfaction"? I can't just let things be, I am human because I choose to move.
I consider your life and my life highly insignificant. North Korea's nukes even more so. The Earth got along just fine for billions of years without us, and we are tiny specks in the context of the vast universe.

Humans do NOT have the most 'power' on Earth. A successful species, yes, but we could easily be wiped out by the right micro-organisms. We don't need to create a line between humans and animals. We are entirely animal in every action we take. There is nothing innately different in us.

When did I say it was 'forced?' I said to consider the complexity and grandiose nature of the world we live in, instead of having tunnel vision. And you are human because you were born that way, it has nothing to do with any actions you take.
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Old 2009-09-24, 12:09   Link #2012
monster
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Originally Posted by Let'sFightingLove View Post
In other words, religion is a convenient prospect formulated by genetically predisposed primates that are so weighed down by the shit in their own pants they refuse to acknowledge the reality in which they are nothing more than a sentient program that has become self-aware as a resut of evolution, whose life poses no relevance outside of their objective purpose in life which is to procreate, as a form of ignorant consolation.
I don't see how you get "convenient" out of my post. In many ways, it's more convenient to only believe in something that you can observe first hand and rationalize with your mind.
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drop the bible and pick up something useful, like a fucking grade 5 science book.
Why? I already have college biology, chemistry, and physics textbooks already. And they're not cheap for me either, so I thank God for financial aid.
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Old 2009-09-24, 12:19   Link #2013
Cipher
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Originally Posted by iLney View Post
I am only interested in your mind at the last second of your life: does the time you live before that matter or not? What constitutes your "satisfaction?"
My humanity.

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I think I didn't say it correctly. Imagine this: instead of 2 seconds, let's make it 5 minutes. Keep the first picture. This time, a group of people enter the house, kill the son, beat up your friends, rape your granddaughters, burns the house down.... while you are lying there, watch, hear and feel: the scream, the terror, the destruction... Now would you rather die just before all of that happens or cling on those 5 minutes. Tell me.
I don't think its possible for me to decide--I don't know the future---but if I really did have a choice, I'd like to not just see but try to prevent it from happening.


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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I consider your life and my life highly insignificant. North Korea's nukes even more so. The Earth got along just fine for billions of years without us, and we are tiny specks in the context of the vast universe.
I don't believe that you truly think that your own life is so insignificant. Because if you do, then that means I value your life more than you value your own life---which doesn't seem make any practical sense to me.
Quote:
Humans do NOT have the most 'power' on Earth. A successful species, yes, but we could easily be wiped out by the right micro-organisms. We don't need to create a line between humans and animals. We are entirely animal in every action we take. There is nothing innately different in us.
Oh! but our discussion itself is clear evidence of our importance.

In the end, this is pretty subjective...so I rest my case.
Quote:
When did I say it was 'forced?' I said to consider the complexity and grandiose nature of the world we live in, instead of having tunnel vision. And you are human because you were born that way, it has nothing to do with any actions you take.
Well being human certainly counts me highly valuing my own life...I don't really care about the "grandiose nature of the world we live in", I care about me and the people in front of me....or somewhere in africa.

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
I don't see how you get "convenient" out of my post. In many ways, it's more convenient to only believe in something that you can observe first hand and rationalize with your mind. Why? I already have college biology, chemistry, and physics textbooks already. And they're not cheap for me either, so I thank God for financial aid.
It would be more "fruit-bearing" if you helped me with this "theist vs. atheist argument" instead of busying yourself joking. (I'm practically at the edge of my seat.)

Last edited by White Manju Bun; 2009-09-24 at 15:36.
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Old 2009-09-24, 12:32   Link #2014
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Let'sFightingLove View Post
Be an asset to society, become proactive positively(ie. scientifically or something along those lines that matter), lead your life liberated from the constraints of some 3rd party supernatural force and worry about 'god' when you're dead.
I agree with the first part about being an asset to society but, if that also directly relates to you own belief or religion, then your basically "killing two birds with one stone".
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Old 2009-09-24, 12:33   Link #2015
Narona
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Originally Posted by Let'sFightingLove View Post
drop the bible and pick up something useful, like a fucking grade 5 science book.
People should also drop the greek mythology books, etc etc etc. You do know that you don't need to be religious to read the bible and see that it contains some interesting thoughts on which you can think?

Anyway, you can also read it to gain some knowledges.

Last edited by White Manju Bun; 2009-09-24 at 15:36.
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Old 2009-09-24, 12:36   Link #2016
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
I agree with the first part about being an asset to society but, if that also directly relates to you own belief of religion, then your basically "killing two birds with one stone".
I think he doesn't like the idea of people doing supposed "morale" actions because of a third party. It would be better if the desire to do something good for a society would stem from inside that person.

It is not killing two birds with one stone, if you only do it for a third party.

I'm curious how would many people act if God's morality was swapped. He desired for humans to do evil things in the world. Would people still follow him, or would they end up defying him?
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Old 2009-09-24, 12:39   Link #2017
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
I don't believe that you truly think that your own life is so insignificant. Because if you do, then that means I value your life more than you value your own life---which doesn't seem make any practical sense to me.

Oh! but our discussion itself is clear evidence of our importance.

In the end, this is pretty subjective...so I rest my case.

Well being human certainly counts me highly valuing my own life...I don't really care about the "grandiose nature of the world we live in", I care about me and the people in front of me....or somewhere in africa.
I'm not sure you understand what insignificant means. I value my life and especially the lives of those I care about, but this in no way makes us significant.

Our discussion is one of many forms of communication found in the animal kingdom. I'm not entirely sure it is subjective either, as I pointed out humanity could easily become extinct.

If you aren't capable of appreciating the world and all of its organisms, then your vision of reality is too narrow for me to alter or influence, so I will end my replies to you here.
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Old 2009-09-24, 12:43   Link #2018
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think he doesn't like the idea of people doing supposed "morale" actions because of a third party. It would be better if the desire to do something good for a society would stem from inside that person.
The self-interest of helping society? Well, I agree...but some really don't care.
Quote:
It is not killing two birds with one stone, if you only do it for a third party.
I guess, to me, its more like killing three birds with one stone. For myself, For society(which is also is for myself) and for the third party(which is also for myself). In the end its all for myself.

Quote:
I'm curious how would many people act if God's morality was swapped. He desired for humans to do evil things in the world. Would people still follow him, or would they end up defying him?
That type of God can only be described as the devil. If people retained "proper" morality, they'd eventually turn to the "devil" which is, in this type of situation, is a "good" entity.

Its like when there's light, there's absence of light, when there's good, there's evil.
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I'm not sure you understand what insignificant means. I value my life and especially the lives of those I care about, but this in no way makes us significant.
It doesn't make us significant? How so? I thought value=significance.

Quote:
Our discussion is one of many forms of communication found in the animal kingdom. I'm not entirely sure it is subjective either, as I pointed out humanity could easily become extinct.
Its very subjective. Its Practicality VS. Intuition. I'm saying you have TOO much intuition.
Quote:
If you aren't capable of appreciating the world and all of its organisms, then your vision of reality is too narrow for me to alter or influence, so I will end my replies to you here.
Of course I appreciate the world and all of its organisms(just not as much as you do), I just value things differently wherein I see things in a more practical kind of way.
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Old 2009-09-24, 12:44   Link #2019
Vexx
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Reviewing the last few pages, I think its time for a mod-stick..... :P

@Cipher: I've actually examined Islam fairly closely (since the Abrahamic religion connectivity made it an easy early stop). Like many religions, there are aspects that are "good" but being "good" they're also somewhat universal to all religions (altruism, golden rule, etc). There are many interpretations (just like in the J-C part of the J-C-I) that however, basically demean, abuse, or incite violence to other human beings. All three of the religions have long histories of this abuse and misuse. Islam, in its early form, was interestingly extremely pro-science -- much of the mathematics, astronomy, and land use knowledge came during its early years. Unfortunately, there are virulent strains in all 3 religions that are anti-science, anti-intellectual. We just have to pick up the news to see examples in all three religions. The underlying mythologies of the J-C-I religions also just simply didn't work if I took them literally. So I kept moving... I examined older European religions (Kelt, Norse, folk) interesting but depressing. I looked to the East with a brief stop in Native America. Here, I still found violence but it was more rarely religious fueled. It was usually resource competition or greed as the stated driver rather than resorting to "our god is on our side" nonsense. Trying to keep this short (could spend pages on each sentence) but at the end, only Zen Buddhism seemed to actually fit most of the puzzle parts for how to view my reality. Even that I find lacking in some ways as Buddhism often incorporates some of the pre-existing dogma of whatever region it moves into. The animism portion of my position is more of a playful anthropomorphism on the organic and inorganic instances of the universe. Ascribing intent to them makes sense if you simply view self-aware life (humans and animals) as the highest formulation of arising self-organizing complexity of matter. Hurricanes, dust-devils, ants, plants, dogs, people, viruses are all instances of complexity along a scale with various levels of intent.

If your religion works for you and you don't mistreat others as a result of it... that's great. If a belief directly conflicts with evidence though.... a religion should be enduring enough to incorporate the new data. Much of the holy books of the J-C-I faiths have many rules that most modern followers ignore.... because they either do not make sense or they permit poor treatment that contradicts the core tenets of altruism and the golden rule.
Example:
Quote:
A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. Deuteronomy 22:13-21
directly contradicts turning the other cheek, golden rule, forgiveness... but more vengeful adherents of the faith leap on it.

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-09-24 at 13:13.
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Old 2009-09-24, 12:44   Link #2020
Haak
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I'm curious how would many people act if God's morality was swapped. He desired for humans to do evil things in the world. Would people still follow him, or would they end up defying him?
I remember hearing a similar argument in Philosophy once.

i think the response went something along the lines of God = Morality so it would be impossible (logical paradoxes be damned) and such a question is therefore meaningless.

That's about what I can remember. I think the argument you just said was similar to a something dilemna. I can't quite remember the name but it did have Dilemna in it (I'm sure it's not moral dilemna), and I think Plato thought of it.

[edit]

I remember now. It was the Euthyphro dilemma.
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