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Old 2009-09-27, 14:21   Link #5621
bladeofdarkness
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that was NOT his problem
this was not about the rest of the world, or the fate of japan
this was about 1 thing only

EUPHIE was STANDING in his WAY
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Old 2009-09-27, 14:59   Link #5622
Betteroffer
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he was going to make her shoot him PUBLICLLY

it would destroy the SAZ, and destroy her name in the eyes of the japanese people and the world
It would make her pretty awesome to the Britannians though. They'd probably cancel her title resignation and claim it was a feint to put up the SAZ in the first place, or go ahead and take it, but make her a high ranking noble at least.

Also, it's questionable if Suzaku would be able to do anything else if he tried to stay in the military.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the very people she had given up her title for, would view her as a monster
and all because lelouch has to have his revenge
The very people she believes caused the death(s) of one to three of her siblings will view her as an intelligent trickster, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he may have not ended up killing all those people, but euphie, and everything she'd ever worked and stood for, would be destroyed
He says that he had already tried thinking out an option like the SAZ. This means that if he thought it was viable he would have already started something, or planned to align with her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the look in his eyes during the massacre would beg to differ
When are you refering to? It would be understandable for most people to be unable to think coherently after they had accidentally caused a massacre. He was half mad with guilt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the SAZ was going to be the entire area surrounding mount fuji
anyone was free to join it just by filling out paperwork
it was exactly what suzaku was talking about by change from within the system
the fact that it wouldnt be all of japan, or that it might lead to similer events in other areas, is not the point
it was the first real step in improving the lives of the numbers
it wasnt perfect, but it was a start
There is a difference between something being an imperfect or slow start, and being outright counterproductive to the greater good.

Euphemia was going to shaft millions of Britannians in the short term, and the world in the longterm for her own sake. Lelouch was going to shaft her (no, not like that) for his own sake.

At this point I think it falls to what each of us believes was the percentage of Lelouch's motivation for sabotaging the SAZ. That is, what percent of it was for his revenge and what percent was because he believed it was best for the people, as well as how one regards intention vs. result.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and lelouch NEEDED to fuck it up because if it was allowed to continue, HE would never have his revenge
because, as we all know, the entire world revolves around lelouch
After he agreed to help her, he casually said he would amend his plans to include the SAZ. He didn't need to ruin it to reach his goal. He needed to ruin it to reach his goal quicker. To stop the killing quicker, and he does care that people who aren't Nunally die when they are killed.
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Old 2009-09-27, 15:09   Link #5623
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
It would make her pretty awesome to the Britannians though. They'd probably cancel her title resignation and claim it was a feint to put up the SAZ in the first place, or go ahead and take it, but make her a high ranking noble at least.

Also, it's questionable if Suzaku would be able to do anything else if he tried to stay in the military.

The very people she believes caused the death(s) of one to three of her siblings will view her as an intelligent trickster, yes.
what?
she wants to help the japanese people
and lelouch would have made her a monster to them
in what world would she have felt like a hero for such a thing ?

Quote:
He says that he had already tried thinking out an option like the SAZ. This means that if he thought it was viable he would have already started something, or planned to align with her.
it didnt go well with his battle against britannia
he needed a causus belli
the SAZ would have canceled that


Quote:
There is a difference between something being an imperfect or slow start, and being outright counterproductive to the greater good.

Euphemia was going to shaft millions of Britannians in the short term, and the world in the longterm for her own sake. Lelouch was going to shaft her (no, not like that) for his own sake.
how would she have shafted anyone
the elevens would have had it better
the britannians would have had it better because they wouldnt be at war with the black knights anymore
and if it works well, it could inspire similer SAZ's in other areas
it wouldnt make britannia go away, but it would improve the lives of those living under their rule considerably

Quote:
At this point I think it falls to what each of us believes was the percentage of Lelouch's motivation for sabotaging the SAZ. That is, what percent of it was for his revenge and what percent was because he believed it was best for the people, as well as how one regards intention vs. result.
i'd say its 102% because it interfers with his plans
and -2% that its not good for the world
but thats just me

Quote:
After he agreed to help her, he casually said he would amend his plans to include the SAZ. He didn't need to ruin it to reach his goal. He needed to ruin it to reach his goal quicker. To stop the killing quicker, and he does care that people who aren't Nunally die when they are killed.
no...
he said that he wouldnt be taking orders from her
once the SAZ was active, the black knights as a military forces would be gone
but zero has a LOT of power with the japanese people
accepting euphie's offer would have in effect put an end to his quest for revenge
at least as zero
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Old 2009-09-27, 16:41   Link #5624
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what?
she wants to help the japanese people
and lelouch would have made her a monster to them
in what world would she have felt like a hero for such a thing ?
It's not about how she felt, it's about what she would be considered. The Britannians would see it as a good thing that she did what she did.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
it didnt go well with his battle against britannia
he needed a causus belli
the SAZ would have canceled that
The SAZ was being used to stifle the rebellion. It wasn't just about a loss of motive, it was a complete inability to ever accomplish anything.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
how would she have shafted anyone
the elevens would have had it better
the britannians would have had it better because they wouldnt be at war with the black knights anymore
and if it works well, it could inspire similer SAZ's in other areas
it wouldnt make britannia go away, but it would improve the lives of those living under their rule considerably
To draw an admittedly loose parallel, it's like when segregation was still in effect in America and people got moved to the back of the bus, only with an entire country. "You can be yourself here, but we'll treat you like shit anywhere else." That is not a better life, it's being given next to nothing for a name. A pittance of their own land would not satisfy the Japanese people for long, and wasn't meant to. It was a gimmick to get rid of the rebellious elements. They'd repeal it as soon as it became inconvenient.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
no...
he said that he wouldnt be taking orders from her
once the SAZ was active, the black knights as a military forces would be gone
but zero has a LOT of power with the japanese people
accepting euphie's offer would have in effect put an end to his quest for revenge
at least as zero
It depends on what he did with the power he was given. He could always continue his quest for revenge. The problem was that Euphie was stifling his attempt to make a better world to fulfill her own small-minded desires.
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Old 2009-09-27, 17:07   Link #5625
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It's not about how she felt, it's about what she would be considered. The Britannians would see it as a good thing that she did what she did.
the damage to her would be done all the same
he would have destoryed her, and everything she stands for

Quote:
The SAZ was being used to stifle the rebellion. It wasn't just about a loss of motive, it was a complete inability to ever accomplish anything.
but that wasnt lelouch's motive now was it ?
it might have been motivation for characters who actually care about japan and its people
but not for lelouch

Quote:
To draw an admittedly loose parallel, it's like when segregation was still in effect in America and people got moved to the back of the bus, only with an entire country. "You can be yourself here, but we'll treat you like shit anywhere else." That is not a better life, it's being given next to nothing for a name. A pittance of their own land would not satisfy the Japanese people for long, and wasn't meant to. It was a gimmick to get rid of the rebellious elements. They'd repeal it as soon as it became inconvenient.
as oppose to the "we'll treat you like shit EVERYWHERE" that was the case before it
its a step up, and with euphie at the helm, its not likely to go away as soon as you seem to think it would

Quote:
It depends on what he did with the power he was given. He could always continue his quest for revenge. The problem was that Euphie was stifling his attempt to make a better world to fulfill her own small-minded desires.
euphie was stifling his small minded attempt at revenge, with her small minded desires
again, lelouch is not in this for a better world
lelouch is in this for revenge and the destraction of britannia
the world that would result from such destraction may turn out better
but thats not what lelouch is after
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Old 2009-09-27, 17:15   Link #5626
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what?
she wants to help the japanese people
and lelouch would have made her a monster to them
in what world would she have felt like a hero for such a thing ?
What I mean is, assuming he made her forget (and it would be too risky not to) that it was her brother fighting to help Japan, then she would forget a fair amount of the progress she made in coming to want to help the Japanese. She would just see the Japanese as people who killed three of her family members, two of which were children at the time. She isn't the type to jump on Cornelia's bandwagon, but she would be considerably less freaked out than what would happen if she were only made to shoot Lelouch and not forget anything.

She would hardly be a monster to the world, at least anymore than the rest of her family. Clovis and Cornelia started massacres, while she would be seen as someone who lured Zero out with peace rather than war and then only went after HIM.

I'm not saying she would feel like a hero at all, just that Lelouch's likely course of action wouldn't have devastated her to the point you seem to think it would. *Cough*ComfortZaku*Cough*

She herself admitted her reasons were selfish, so she wasn't much better than Lelouch as far as motive goes.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
how would she have shafted anyone
the elevens would have had it better
the britannians would have had it better because they wouldnt be at war with the black knights anymore
and if it works well, it could inspire similer SAZ's in other areas
it wouldnt make britannia go away, but it would improve the lives of those living under their rule considerably
Ideally they would, but even ignoring my theories about the SAZ starting a war, there is still the fact that most Britannians saw this as their government betraying them or weakening to the point that it couldn't protect them. The nobleman attacking the kid shows that many Britannians weren't taking the SAZ well and there would be wealthy and influencial people who would try to impede or sabotage its progress. Again, outside the SAZ's boarders nothing would change.

Terrorism would be discredited, not wiped out. Cornelia would do that, but it would probably crop up again if/when she left.

Similar establishements around the other Areas are very unlikely. Reforms work best when there is a need for them, and even then all change is "rocking the boat" to someone. Euphemia giving up her title seperated her from the rest of Britannia in showing that this was HER idea, not Britannia's. Unless terrorism got alot worse in the other Areas, then the other Viceroys didn't have much reason or incentive to implement such things, and Schneizel pushing it would make him dangerously unpopular.

Simply put, Britannians would want to remind the Japanese outside of the SAZ that they were still Elevens, and the Japanese would want to "remind" the Britannians that Zero scared their government into the SAZ. When two such groups meet, things wouldn't end very well.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i'd say its 102% because it interfers with his plans
and -2% that its not good for the world
but thats just me
Then we'll agree to disagree on this point, mostly because I'm honestly not sure where I place the percentages.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
euphie was stifling his small minded attempt at revenge, with her small minded desires
again, lelouch is not in this for a better world
lelouch is in this for revenge and the destraction of britannia
the world that would result from such destraction may turn out better
but thats not what lelouch is after
Suzaku called him out on this in Turn 21. Lelouch did want a better world. He just couldn't accept that a bastard like him wanted it because bad people can't want good things or else those good things would be bad things, so he claimed it was all for Nunally's sake because she's innocent.
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Old 2009-09-27, 17:23   Link #5627
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
What I mean is, assuming he made her forget (and it would be too risky not to) that it was her brother fighting to help Japan, then she would forget a fair amount of the progress she made in coming to want to help the Japanese. She would just see the Japanese as people who killed three of her family members, two of which were children at the time. She isn't the type to jump on Cornelia's bandwagon, but she would be considerably less freaked out than what would happen if she were only made to shoot Lelouch and not forget anything.

She would hardly be a monster to the world, at least anymore than the rest of her family. Clovis and Cornelia started massacres, while she would be seen as someone who lured Zero out with peace rather than war and then only went after HIM.

I'm not saying she would feel like a hero at all, just that Lelouch's likely course of action wouldn't have devastated her to the point you seem to think it would. *Cough*ComfortZaku*Cough*

She herself admitted her reasons were selfish, so she wasn't much better than Lelouch as far as motive goes.
so he would not only have her destroy everything she's been working for along with suzaku
he'd also make ulterations to her memory and (as a consequence) personality so that she would be fit better into his chain of events
that would be beyond evil

Quote:
Ideally they would, but even ignoring my theories about the SAZ starting a war, there is still the fact that most Britannians saw this as their government betraying them or weakening to the point that it couldn't protect them. The nobleman attacking the kid shows that many Britannians weren't taking the SAZ well and there would be wealthy and influencial people who would try to impede or sabotage its progress. Again, outside the SAZ's boarders nothing would change.

Terrorism would be discredited, not wiped out. Cornelia would do that, but it would probably crop up again if/when she left.

Similar establishements around the other Areas are very unlikely. Reforms work best when there is a need for them, and even then all change is "rocking the boat" to someone. Euphemia giving up her title seperated her from the rest of Britannia in showing that this was HER idea, not Britannia's. Unless terrorism got alot worse in the other Areas, then the other Viceroys didn't have much reason or incentive to implement such things, and Schneizel pushing it would make him dangerously unpopular.

Simply put, Britannians would want to remind the Japanese outside of the SAZ that they were still Elevens, and the Japanese would want to "remind" the Britannians that Zero scared their government into the SAZ. When two such groups meet, things wouldn't end very well.
as opposed to the britannians reminding the elevens of their place despite zero fighitng against them
and the japanese wanting to remind the britannians that they are not so toothless anymore
the SAZ was an attempt to defuse the situation before it explodes
and it did with the black rebellion, in large part BECAUSE of the failure of the SAZ

Quote:
Suzaku called him out on this in Turn 21. Lelouch did want a better world. He just couldn't accept that a bastard like him wanted it because bad people can't want good things or else those good things would be bad things, so he claimed it was all for Nunally's sake because she's innocent.
nunnaly was a justification for his quest for revenge
not for his desire of a better world
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Old 2009-09-27, 17:27   Link #5628
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Lelouch never really gave a shit about Japan or the world. Even Nunnaly was simply his excuse for his evil deeds. He never really knew what she wanted until after she told him herself.

I think that being as smart as he was he sometimes thought too much and didn't see the obvious. For example, he thinks that his mother was this caring woman when in fact she was a ruthless bitch; he launches this rebellion to avenge her and sacrifices a ton of lives, including those of people who loved him...all based on basically lies and misconceptions.

He thinks of his siblings as if they were monsters when in fact they all pretty much loved him and Nunnaly. Early on he mentions that his mother's murder and their subsequent exile is a result of their half-commoner blood; he even suspects Cornelia of the murders. However in the series none of the royal family except for that Carline or w/e seemed to have any ill feelings towards them. Everybody seemed to talk highly of Marianne, they admired and respected her.

Lelouch was just an asshole, which I assume he got from his mother lol.
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Old 2009-09-27, 17:35   Link #5629
bladeofdarkness
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he's not JUST an ass-hole
he was only an ass-hole when he focused on himself and nothing else
when he stops focusing just on himself, and looks at the world around him, he has potential to do a great deal of good
which is why the ending and zero-requiem is such a slap in the face
he may SAY that he is doing this to make the world a better place
but his choice of method is explicitly stated as a path that HE chooses out of several other ways for dealing with shnizel
lelouch isnt doing zero-requiem to save the world from shnizel
he's doing it because its what he WANTS to do, and is unwilling to consider other ways to do it
because its all about him in the end
which makes him more akin to shnizel and charles then he SHOULD have been
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Old 2009-09-27, 17:53   Link #5630
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Lelouch never really gave a shit about Japan or the world. Even Nunnaly was simply his excuse for his evil deeds. He never really knew what she wanted until after she told him herself.

I think that being as smart as he was he sometimes thought too much and didn't see the obvious. For example, he thinks that his mother was this caring woman when in fact she was a ruthless bitch; he launches this rebellion to avenge her and sacrifices a ton of lives, including those of people who loved him...all based on basically lies and misconceptions.

He thinks of his siblings as if they were monsters when in fact they all pretty much loved him and Nunnaly. Early on he mentions that his mother's murder and their subsequent exile is a result of their half-commoner blood; he even suspects Cornelia of the murders. However in the series none of the royal family except for that Carline or w/e seemed to have any ill feelings towards them. Everybody seemed to talk highly of Marianne, they admired and respected her.

Lelouch was just an asshole, which I assume he got from his mother lol.
Which doesn't excuse his other siblings, namely Schneizel and Cornelia, of being assholes themselves.
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Old 2009-09-27, 18:11   Link #5631
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Lelouch never really gave a shit about Japan or the world. Even Nunnaly was simply his excuse for his evil deeds. He never really knew what she wanted until after she told him herself.

I think that being as smart as he was he sometimes thought too much and didn't see the obvious. For example, he thinks that his mother was this caring woman when in fact she was a ruthless bitch; he launches this rebellion to avenge her and sacrifices a ton of lives, including those of people who loved him...all based on basically lies and misconceptions.

He thinks of his siblings as if they were monsters when in fact they all pretty much loved him and Nunnaly. Early on he mentions that his mother's murder and their subsequent exile is a result of their half-commoner blood; he even suspects Cornelia of the murders. However in the series none of the royal family except for that Carline or w/e seemed to have any ill feelings towards them. Everybody seemed to talk highly of Marianne, they admired and respected her.

Lelouch was just an asshole, which I assume he got from his mother lol.
If you put it that way, he's simply an ignorant asshole who is paranoid to even the ones who care for him. But his ignorance should be justified because basically, he can't risk himself to go back to Britannia and plainly ask for the truth. Of course, if I was an exile prince who lost my mother and everyone is keeping quiet of it, I would assume everyone is my enemy and get an answer through a vendetta. Knowing that Britannia is abusing Japan, it's safe to assume he couldn't do it the way Suzaku planned all along; by changing it from the inside.
And seriously, after that twist where his mother was actually conspiring with his father, it's like a slap to the face that everything he has done from the beginning was all for naught. Very disappointing.
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Old 2009-09-27, 18:22   Link #5632
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Vampire View Post
If you put it that way, he's simply an ignorant asshole who is paranoid to even the ones who care for him. But his ignorance should be justified because basically, he can't risk himself to go back to Britannia and plainly ask for the truth. Of course, if I was an exile prince who lost my mother and everyone is keeping quiet of it, I would assume everyone is my enemy and get an answer through a vendetta. Knowing that Britannia is abusing Japan, it's safe to assume he couldn't do it the way Suzaku planned all along; by changing it from the inside.
And seriously, after that twist where his mother was actually conspiring with his father, it's like a slap to the face that everything he has done from the beginning was all for naught. Very disappointing.
he never wanted to
he never cared
japan was where he was, so japan was where he'd start
lelouch wasnt fighting to free japan, he was highjacking the japanese independence cause as a way to build himself an army
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Old 2009-09-27, 19:03   Link #5633
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the damage to her would be done all the same
he would have destoryed her, and everything she stands for
she took that risk when she decided to step on everything Lelouch was trying to accomplish. She knew full well why he was doing what he was doing, and tried to placate him by creating a little sanctuary.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
but that wasnt lelouch's motive now was it ?
it might have been motivation for characters who actually care about japan and its people
but not for lelouch
You're stuck on too narrow a viewpoint. Even if Lelouch had Nunnally as his primary motivation, he still cared about the state of the world, and what Euphie tried to do would have ruined any attempt to change it.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
as oppose to the "we'll treat you like shit EVERYWHERE" that was the case before it
its a step up, and with euphie at the helm, its not likely to go away as soon as you seem to think it would
Euphie does not have any power. Charles has power, Schneizel has power, Cornelia has power, and so on. Euphie's a princess with almost no political clot that gave up her title. She had zero ability to keep it together.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
euphie was stifling his small minded attempt at revenge, with her small minded desires
again, lelouch is not in this for a better world
lelouch is in this for revenge and the destraction of britannia
the world that would result from such destraction may turn out better
but thats not what lelouch is after
Yes, he is after a better world, and always has been. Narrow viewpoint again. You're trying to make Lelouch out as a monster and suppress anything that doesn't fit in that. Lelouch does care, and was trying to make a better world. Britannia as it was did not fit in that.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
so he would not only have her destroy everything she's been working for along with suzaku
he'd also make ulterations to her memory and (as a consequence) personality so that she would be fit better into his chain of events
that would be beyond evil
No more evil than said ordering of massacres. You exaggerate. He was going to order her to shoot him non-fatally and that was it.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
as opposed to the britannians reminding the elevens of their place despite zero fighitng against them
and the japanese wanting to remind the britannians that they are not so toothless anymore
the SAZ was an attempt to defuse the situation before it explodes
and it did with the black rebellion, in large part BECAUSE of the failure of the SAZ
The SAZ was an attempt to stifle the rebellion, not defuse it. They did not care if it made people happy in the long run, only that it ruined support for terrorism in the short run.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
nunnaly was a justification for his quest for revenge
not for his desire of a better world
She was both, so stop trying to edge out the latter.
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Old 2009-09-27, 19:16   Link #5634
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
she took that risk when she decided to step on everything Lelouch was trying to accomplish. She knew full well why he was doing what he was doing, and tried to placate him by creating a little sanctuary.
stepping on everything he's been fighting for ?
because its all about him, right ?
the 100,000,000 japanese people living under severe oppression were a minor detail

Quote:
You're stuck on too narrow a viewpoint. Even if Lelouch had Nunnally as his primary motivation, he still cared about the state of the world, and what Euphie tried to do would have ruined any attempt to change it.
euhpie was trying to change it as well, just taking a different route
what bothers you is that she wasnt trying to destory britannia, which lelouch viewed as the only valid option

Quote:
Euphie does not have any power. Charles has power, Schneizel has power, Cornelia has power, and so on. Euphie's a princess with almost no political clot that gave up her title. She had zero ability to keep it together.
you ignore her position as vice-governer of japan (soon to be governor for real, according to cornelia)
or the fact that Cornelia would have backed her up in the face of any opposition on her dream
as would shnizel, if it proved effective

Quote:
Yes, he is after a better world, and always has been. Narrow viewpoint again. You're trying to make Lelouch out as a monster and suppress anything that doesn't fit in that. Lelouch does care, and was trying to make a better world. Britannia as it was did not fit in that.
i dont try to make him out as a monster
i'm trying to make him out as a selfish man with delusions of grandeur and a huge chip on his shoulder
who drops the fate of an entire nation down the drain the moment his little sister is placed at any kind of risk
because THATS what he is when you get right down to it
at least in season 1

Quote:
No more evil than said ordering of massacres. You exaggerate. He was going to order her to shoot him non-fatally and that was it.
that was what betteroffer was talking about
that aside from ordering her to shoot him, he would also change some of her memories and there by change her
i was commenting on that version

Quote:
The SAZ was an attempt to stifle the rebellion, not defuse it. They did not care if it made people happy in the long run, only that it ruined support for terrorism in the short run.
who didnt care, shnizel ?
charles ?
charles doesnt care about anything, and shnizel does whats effective
and if its effective to give the japanese people some of their rights back, then thats what he'd do

Quote:
She was both, so stop trying to edge out the latter.
step one, destroy britannia
step two, with britannia gone, the world is a better place
step three, nunnaly gets to live in a better world

lelouch was not going to use geass to convince everyone to start recycling or stop whale hunting
lelouch's method of improving the world was one single aspect at all times
the one that ties in with his revenge
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Old 2009-09-27, 19:44   Link #5635
morbosfist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
stepping on everything he's been fighting for ?
because its all about him, right ?
the 100,000,000 japanese people living under severe oppression were a minor detail
She made the plan because of him. Before that, the oppression didn't bother her that much. Also, do you think 100,000,000 Japanese people are going to fit in the area surrounding a mountain? Unless they planned to stuff them in side by side, low admission or denying admission were expected outcomes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
euhpie was trying to change it as well, just taking a different route
what bothers you is that she wasnt trying to destory britannia, which lelouch viewed as the only valid option
What bothers me is that, like Suzaku, she is too narrow-minded in what she's doing. She didn't make the SAZ as wide-spread change or something to be implemented for everyone, just for a select group. Lelouch always has the big picture in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
you ignore her position as vice-governer of japan (soon to be governor for real, according to cornelia)
or the fact that Cornelia would have backed her up in the face of any opposition on her dream
as would shnizel, if it proved effective
That was before Euphie gave up her title. Cornelia also wasn't willing to back her up when their views didn't mesh. She only supported the SAZ because Schneizel had given the go-ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i dont try to make him out as a monster
i'm trying to make him out as a selfish man with delusions of grandeur and a huge chip on his shoulder
who drops the fate of an entire nation down the drain the moment his little sister is placed at any kind of risk
because THATS what he is when you get right down to it
at least in season 1
It's also a horrible oversimplification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
that was what betteroffer was talking about
that aside from ordering her to shoot him, he would also change some of her memories and there by change her
i was commenting on that version
She wouldn't remember shooting him, unless he told her to. That's all that would change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
who didnt care, shnizel ?
charles ?
charles doesnt care about anything, and shnizel does whats effective
and if its effective to give the japanese people some of their rights back, then thats what he'd do
Charles cares enough to order entire countries conquered on a whim. He'd care enough to stop the SAZ if he didn't expect Lelouch to do it for him. Schneizel only supported the SAZ as a means to stifle the terrorists, not for the sake of equal rights. He wouldn't hesitate to restore the status quo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
step one, destroy britannia
step two, with britannia gone, the world is a better place
step three, nunnaly gets to live in a better world

lelouch was not going to use geass to convince everyone to start recycling or stop whale hunting
lelouch's method of improving the world was one single aspect at all times
the one that ties in with his revenge
Again, oversimplifying for the sake of your argument. Destroying Britannia was a task that needed to be done for anything else to happen. Can't very well have a better world with these crazy bastards conquering everyone in sight.
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Old 2009-09-27, 20:01   Link #5636
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
She made the plan because of him. Before that, the oppression didn't bother her that much. Also, do you think 100,000,000 Japanese people are going to fit in the area surrounding a mountain? Unless they planned to stuff them in side by side, low admission or denying admission were expected outcomes.
she had always been shown to be in distaste of the way her country treated the japanese
her very first ep has her requesting that suzaku take her to see the damage done in shinjiku, and has her slapping a britannian tourist for being rude to suzaku because of his origin
the SAZ was the culmination of her resolve to improve things

Quote:
What bothers me is that, like Suzaku, she is too narrow-minded in what she's doing. She didn't make the SAZ as wide-spread change or something to be implemented for everyone, just for a select group. Lelouch always has the big picture in mind.
by select group you mean "any japanese person who wants to sign up" ?
lelouch was just as narrow minded as euphie was if not more so
you say he was looking big picture, but i say he was looking at a very small, wheel chair bound picture
euphie takes an active interest in the plight of the japanese people long before she knows lelouch is alive

Quote:
That was before Euphie gave up her title. Cornelia also wasn't willing to back her up when their views didn't mesh. She only supported the SAZ because Schneizel had given the go-ahead.
actually, she admitted that while she doesnt agree with the concept, she still supports her decision
thats why she has darlton aid her in it

Quote:
It's also a horrible oversimplification.
doesnt mean its not true

Quote:
She wouldn't remember shooting him, unless he told her to. That's all that would change.
again, that was a response to something betteroffer said

Quote:
Charles cares enough to order entire countries conquered on a whim. He'd care enough to stop the SAZ if he didn't expect Lelouch to do it for him. Schneizel only supported the SAZ as a means to stifle the terrorists, not for the sake of equal rights. He wouldn't hesitate to restore the status quo.
why ?
the man has never shown any interest in oppressing people
quite the opposite really

Quote:
Again, oversimplifying for the sake of your argument. Destroying Britannia was a task that needed to be done for anything else to happen. Can't very well have a better world with these crazy bastards conquering everyone in sight.
and again, its not oversimplification, because lelouch does NOT think about the rest of the world
he wants to destroy britannia
thats what he WANTS
the rest of the world is just details he has to deal with on the way
the man pulls a coup and overthrows the government of the largest nation on earth just as a step along the way to take down britannia
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Old 2009-09-27, 20:15   Link #5637
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You can't expect change immediately, which is something I see around me these days. People expect drastic changes RIGHT NOW. The only way to do that is to completely bring down the system, and that has consequences of its own.

Destroying Britannia might have been the faster route but it wasn't the only way, nor was it the RIGHT way to change. It took over a century for America to overcome segregation...

You gotta be optimistic and hope for the best. The SAZ may not have been much, but it was something. You can't just expect them to say "here's Japan back, we're outta here". That's not realistic, but a second Special Zone if the first one proved successful isn't so fetched. It could start out as just one zone and then after a couple of years the entire area could be one giant special zone. If everybody gets equal rights who really cares if where they live isn't called Japan but Area 11 when they have all the basic rights, standard of living etc as the guy living in the mainland? A nation is simply a name, what people really care about is their well being, their happyness and the hope of a better future. As long as you have food to put on your plate, clothes to keep you warm, a roof to sleep under, and the opportunity to better yourself you couldn't care less where you live.
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Old 2009-09-27, 20:20   Link #5638
morbosfist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
she had always been shown to be in distaste of the way her country treated the japanese
her very first ep has her requesting that suzaku take her to see the damage done in shinjiku, and has her slapping a britannian tourist for being rude to suzaku because of his origin
the SAZ was the culmination of her resolve to improve things
Fine, I'll concede this as a simple lack of buildup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
by select group you mean "any japanese person who wants to sign up" ?
lelouch was just as narrow minded as euphie was if not more so
you say he was looking big picture, but i say he was looking at a very small, wheel chair bound picture
euphie takes an active interest in the plight of the japanese people long before she knows lelouch is alive
By "select group" I mean "however many people can be shoved into the area around Mt Fuji. It was even worse the second time around. sooner or later they'd reach capacity and either have to deny admission or expand the SAZ. The latter wouldn't happen.

On the second part, stop oversimplifying. It's getting old. He always had the big picture in mind. Nunnally's just the motivation, his goals included the entire world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
actually, she admitted that while she doesnt agree with the concept, she still supports her decision
thats why she has darlton aid her in it
She also notes that it's only because she's Viceory, and Schneizel had approved it so she was circumvented anyway. She could either be spiteful or helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
doesnt mean its not true
But it does mean it's not entirely accurate. It's like calling every feline species a feline and leaving it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
why ?
the man has never shown any interest in oppressing people
quite the opposite really
So all those campaigns to conquer the EU and oppressing the entire damn world with FLEIJA don't count?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and again, its not oversimplification, because lelouch does NOT think about the rest of the world
he wants to destroy britannia
thats what he WANTS
the rest of the world is just details he has to deal with on the way
the man pulls a coup and overthrows the government of the largest nation on earth just as a step along the way to take down britannia
If it were just Britannia he cared about destroying he wouldn't be making such an effort to ensure everyone else gets to be better off. You're ignoring that he is making the effort to improve other countries while he works to stop Britannia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
You can't expect change immediately, which is something I see around me these days. People expect drastic changes RIGHT NOW. The only way to do that is to completely bring down the system, and that has consequences of its own.

Destroying Britannia might have been the faster route but it wasn't the only way, nor was it the RIGHT way to change. It took over a century for America to overcome segregation...

You gotta be optimistic and hope for the best. The SAZ may not have been much, but it was something. You can't just expect them to say "here's Japan back, we're outta here". That's not realistic, but a second Special Zone if the first one proved successful isn't so fetched. It could start out as just one zone and then after a couple of years the entire area could be one giant special zone. If everybody gets equal rights who really cares if where they live isn't called Japan but Area 11 when they have all the basic rights, standard of living etc as the guy living in the mainland? A nation is simply a name, what people really care about is their well being, their happyness and the hope of a better future. As long as you have food to put on your plate, clothes to keep you warm, a roof to sleep under, and the opportunity to better yourself you couldn't care less where you live.
That might work in a fair system, but not in an absolute monarchy. When the opinion of a sole man is all that matters, headway doesn't get made without drastic action.
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Old 2009-09-27, 20:32   Link #5639
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
By "select group" I mean "however many people can be shoved into the area around Mt Fuji. It was even worse the second time around. sooner or later they'd reach capacity and either have to deny admission or expand the SAZ. The latter wouldn't happen.
the area around mount fuji is HUGE
it can easily contain a few million people
and its the FIRST STEP
if the only problem with this set up is that it lacks space, they would simply expend it
if it works, you run with it
why wouldnt they
they already let the numbers administer themselves
and mount fuji IS the place were the sakuradite mines are placed
other then the tokyo settelment, there is no reason why they wouldnt expend the SAZ in size

Quote:
So all those campaigns to conquer the EU and oppressing the entire damn world with FLEIJA don't count?
he's following orders until he's in a position to take action (which he does in season 2) against the emperor
the entire point of the damocles was not to oppress
he doesnt seek to rule
he seeks to police
to keep people from fighting

Quote:
If it were just Britannia he cared about destroying he wouldn't be making such an effort to ensure everyone else gets to be better off. You're ignoring that he is making the effort to improve other countries while he works to stop Britannia.
what effort ?
he is making an effort to get all the countries in the UFN to GIVE HIM THEIR ARMIES
the entire point of the UFN was to give him the military power required to take on britannia
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Old 2009-09-27, 22:05   Link #5640
morbosfist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the area around mount fuji is HUGE
it can easily contain a few million people
and its the FIRST STEP
if the only problem with this set up is that it lacks space, they would simply expend it
if it works, you run with it
why wouldnt they
they already let the numbers administer themselves
and mount fuji IS the place were the sakuradite mines are placed
other then the tokyo settelment, there is no reason why they wouldnt expend the SAZ in size
Few millions out of more than 100 million. That's a big fraction. Remember there's a mining operation there, too. As I've said repeatedly, they wouldn't run with it because they weren't doing it for the Japanese, but to get rid of the terrorists. Once the terrorists are gone there's no incentive to continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he's following orders until he's in a position to take action (which he does in season 2) against the emperor
the entire point of the damocles was not to oppress
he doesnt seek to rule
he seeks to police
to keep people from fighting
Schneizel would never have acted against the Emperor had Suzaku not suggested it. The FLEIJAs are oppression. It's forcing people to act exactly as he wants, and he acknowledges it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what effort ?
he is making an effort to get all the countries in the UFN to GIVE HIM THEIR ARMIES
the entire point of the UFN was to give him the military power required to take on britannia
And to make those countries better off. He could have bribed the Eunuchs to help him, but decided to do it the way that would leave China better off. The UFN didn't just give him an army, so for the last time stop oversimplifying on these things. He can do more than one thing at once.
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