AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Code Geass

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-09-27, 23:00   Link #5641
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
That might work in a fair system, but not in an absolute monarchy. When the opinion of a sole man is all that matters, headway doesn't get made without drastic action.
When the opinion of a sole man is all that matters, headway can be much more quickly made if that man has the right ideas. The trade-off between Monarchy and Democracy is fundamentally between efficiency and representation. I'd argue, though, that it was Charles' very lack of power that lead to the oppression of Britannia's conquered countries.

Britannia was supposed to be a nation built on merit: fundamentally, the strong should be rewarded. On a national level, this was expressed through Britannia conquering other countries and stripping them of their names and their cultures: as Britannia triumphed over them, their policies/culture were stronger, and thus participating citizens were forced to acknowledge this and join the system as 'Honourary Britannians'. In conception then this should have been an absorptive process: by converting the economies/militaries of conquered countries to the superior standard of the Britannians, both Britannia and the conquered country itself are strengthened. Honourary Britannians, having abandoned their past pride and national identity, become fully indoctrined in the Britannian 'system of merit' and blend seamlessly into their society.

However, the obstacle to this sort of system lies in the inherent human instinct of self-preservation. Notably exemplified by the practice of 'inherited nobility', once people have obtained wealth or power, rather than continuing to strive for merit to warrant their rank and status, they turn to sabatoging and oppressing those below them in order to protect their own position. This corruptive influence leads to a setup where those in power are not truly strong, and do not truly work to benefit the nation, but rather desperately and insinuously act solely for self-gain and preservation. It is only in the interest of these people that oppression and inequal treatment of conquered citizens continue (less competition).

Charles' enemy was the self-serving behaviour and ideologies of the aristocracy. Aside from that, he (and more fundamentally Britannia) supported an idealogy of merit that would reward anyone, no matter their class, who could benefit the nation. Equal opportunity for those who had submitted to the Britannian system would thus be a good thing; there is no reason why Charles would have opposed the SAZ. To the contrary, in the past, Charles very likely would have pursued reforms in precisely this vein of thought only to eventually despair and be crushed by the self-interested resistance by the aristocracy. That's why, in the Britannian monarchy, I'd say that it wasn't that Charles had too much power, but rather too little of it.

As for the success of the SAZ: by principle of merit, Suzaku rose up to become Euphemia's knight. By principle of merit, Zero was also offered a chance to lead it. Under the banner of Suzaku's 'numbered Knighthood' and Zero's hero of justice, the entirety of Japan could have been rallied to engage in building a future within Britannia. From the Britannian side, Euphemia has the protection of the Governor General of Japan, her sister (who, even if she disagreed with the principle, would never allow the achievement Euphemia surrendered her right of ascension for to be destroyed by petty political sabotage), and the Prime Minister of Britannia, Schniezel, who equally (as a leader) believes in rewarding merit over self-interest. With her 'knight' Suzaku defending Euphie from assassination and Lelouch as a navigator through the depths of political intrigue, the SAZ could well have survived, and eventually opened a path to widespread reform (especially if they got Charles onboard).

edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Few millions out of more than 100 million. That's a big fraction. Remember there's a mining operation there, too. As I've said repeatedly, they wouldn't run with it because they weren't doing it for the Japanese, but to get rid of the terrorists. Once the terrorists are gone there's no incentive to continue.
As I said, the incentive is economic growth and public peace. If you take terrorism as a function of the discontent of the people, then obviously there should be less terrorism where opportunities like the SAZ are available, and more where there isn't. Even if the terrorism is no longer of the organized sort like Zero lead that threatened to disrupt their hold on the entire nation, it would still be infinitely better to have no terrorism at all.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 24/5 :: Yama no Susume 32/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 00:05   Link #5642
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
When the opinion of a sole man is all that matters, headway can be much more quickly made if that man has the right ideas. The trade-off between Monarchy and Democracy is fundamentally between efficiency and representation. I'd argue, though, that it was Charles' very lack of power that lead to the oppression of Britannia's conquered countries.

Britannia was supposed to be a nation built on merit: fundamentally, the strong should be rewarded. On a national level, this was expressed through Britannia conquering other countries and stripping them of their names and their cultures: as Britannia triumphed over them, their policies/culture were stronger, and thus participating citizens were forced to acknowledge this and join the system as 'Honourary Britannians'. In conception then this should have been an absorptive process: by converting the economies/militaries of conquered countries to the superior standard of the Britannians, both Britannia and the conquered country itself are strengthened. Honourary Britannians, having abandoned their past pride and national identity, become fully indoctrined in the Britannian 'system of merit' and blend seamlessly into their society.

However, the obstacle to this sort of system lies in the inherent human instinct of self-preservation. Notably exemplified by the practice of 'inherited nobility', once people have obtained wealth or power, rather than continuing to strive for merit to warrant their rank and status, they turn to sabatoging and oppressing those below them in order to protect their own position. This corruptive influence leads to a setup where those in power are not truly strong, and do not truly work to benefit the nation, but rather desperately and insinuously act solely for self-gain and preservation. It is only in the interest of these people that oppression and inequal treatment of conquered citizens continue (less competition).
Charles is the architect of these policies. It's not his lack of power that creates oppression. He created it himself upon coming into power. You can't blame others for what he created. In this case the man in charge was in no way going to abide by equal rights and all that.

Furthermore, Honorary Britannians aren't the same as full citizens. They don't have the same rights or opportunities. They aren't folded in, just given a slightly decent life. They're turned into grunts that aren't even allowed to carry guns (in other words , fodder).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Charles' enemy was the self-serving behaviour and ideologies of the aristocracy. Aside from that, he (and more fundamentally Britannia) supported an idealogy of merit that would reward anyone, no matter their class, who could benefit the nation. Equal opportunity for those who had submitted to the Britannian system would thus be a good thing; there is no reason why Charles would have opposed the SAZ. To the contrary, in the past, Charles very likely would have pursued reforms in precisely this vein of thought only to eventually despair and be crushed by the self-interested resistance by the aristocracy. That's why, in the Britannian monarchy, I'd say that it wasn't that Charles had too much power, but rather too little of it.
I don't see where you're getting these ideas from. Charles was the one supported the unequality, so much so that he outright preaches it and mocks the EU for practicing the reverse. It wasn't any lack of power. He had all the power. His whim is their command. ("Conquer the Chinese Federation? Sure thing." More or less.) Even though Charles may not have believed in such ideals at his core, he more than happily ran with them in pursuit of his own goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As for the success of the SAZ: by principle of merit, Suzaku rose up to become Euphemia's knight. By principle of merit, Zero was also offered a chance to lead it. Under the banner of Suzaku's 'numbered Knighthood' and Zero's hero of justice, the entirety of Japan could have been rallied to engage in building a future within Britannia. From the Britannian side, Euphemia has the protection of the Governor General of Japan, her sister (who, even if she disagreed with the principle, would never allow the achievement Euphemia surrendered her right of ascension for to be destroyed by petty political sabotage), and the Prime Minister of Britannia, Schniezel, who equally (as a leader) believes in rewarding merit over self-interest. With her 'knight' Suzaku defending Euphie from assassination and Lelouch as a navigator through the depths of political intrigue, the SAZ could well have survived, and eventually opened a path to widespread reform (especially if they got Charles onboard).
Merit didn't land Suzaku in the Lancelot, luck did, and from there on he has a super-advanced death machine and is mostly outside the chain of command. He couldn't go anywhere but up, because no one had any say in how he was chosen. The system would never allowed him to pilot the Lancelot normally. Friendship with Euphie landed him the Knight spot more than skill did. Euphie wasn't giving Zero the chance to lead the SAZ, she wanted his help in making it work. Furthermore, merit isn't what motivated this, it was family matters.

Cornelia was only helpful to the extent that she felt her position demanded. She was not in any way happy about it. She's also staunchly supportive of Britannia's policies. Schneizel was only helpful to the extent that it served his interests to be. Neither of these people would fight tooth and nail to keep Euphie's SAZ alive in the face of opposition unless there was significant benefit to do so. If placating the opposition proved a more advantageous move than inciting minor terrorism, Schneizel would roll with it.

Even assuming it did get under way, they would never have gotten Charles on board. This isn't a man who is tolerant with concession. They lost one battle against the Black Knights in the Chinese Federation and he demanded the entire country. There's also no incentive to implement it anywhere else. Japan may be getting uppity, but the rest of their territories know when to bow down and it would not serve their interests to reward them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As I said, the incentive is economic growth and public peace. If you take terrorism as a function of the discontent of the people, then obviously there should be less terrorism where opportunities like the SAZ are available, and more where there isn't. Even if the terrorism is no longer of the organized sort like Zero lead that threatened to disrupt their hold on the entire nation, it would still be infinitely better to have no terrorism at all.
But, as is demonstrated, Britannia is ok with a certain level of discontent. Arguably it even serves their purposes. It makes them seem strong to crush these losers. Zero was a bother because he was a threat. Remove the threat and the regular discontent is something they'd put up with precisely because they could put it down.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 05:40   Link #5643
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Few millions out of more than 100 million. That's a big fraction. Remember there's a mining operation there, too. As I've said repeatedly, they wouldn't run with it because they weren't doing it for the Japanese, but to get rid of the terrorists. Once the terrorists are gone there's no incentive to continue.
the terrorists would be gone only if it works
if it doesnt work because its too small new ressistance groups would arise
so making sure that it KEEPS working, is important

Quote:
Schneizel would never have acted against the Emperor had Suzaku not suggested it. The FLEIJAs are oppression. It's forcing people to act exactly as he wants, and he acknowledges it.
because he only started developing flejias and building the damocles after suzaku suggested it ?
he was planing to act sooner or later
he was waiting till the damocles was ready, but since suzaku suggested that he take out the emperor himself, then why not

Quote:
And to make those countries better off. He could have bribed the Eunuchs to help him, but decided to do it the way that would leave China better off. The UFN didn't just give him an army, so for the last time stop oversimplifying on these things. He can do more than one thing at once.
he didnt want the eunichs HELP
he wanted their position
he wanted to TAKE OVER the CF
and i am NOT oversimplifying it
he can, and DOES do more then one thing
but he does it only for one reason and one goal
he openly mocks the japanese people for buying into that whole "knights of justice" angle
and he plans to take over the CF from the start, and making it a point ot do it in a way that doesnt make him look like an invader
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 10:10   Link #5644
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Wow, long discussion there. I just think Lelouch is a badass. Just look at the end result and it'll justify everything "evil" he's done. Lets be honest, in this type of "chaos-like" situation, unlike Light, He's "The end" justifies his means. I'm pretty sure he tried enough to lessen "sacrifices", but, the reality is this: the world won't move w/o enough sacrifices.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 10:28   Link #5645
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
its explicitly stated that he did zero requiem because he wanted to atone, rather then to be willing to choose other options to stop shnizel
that he did NOT consider any other ways that would lessen the sacrifices, because he was unwilling to consider any other path
its the way he WANTS to do it, not the only way that it can be done in
there were other ways
ones that wont require the sacrifice of so many lives for no reason other then to satisfy his own ego and desire to die

the ends justify the means, only if the ends actually REQUIRE the means, and if no other, better, means and options are available for achieving those ends
you can keep your dog from crapping on the carpet by rubbing his nose in it till it learns
or you can keep your dog from crapping on the carpet by shooting it
both would achieve the ends of not having the dog crap on the carpet
but when the first option is available, you cant justify the second one
and its the same for lelouch
you cant claim it as necessary evil, unless its actually necessary
if its NOT necessary, then its just being un-necessarily evil
which means that the end result does NOT justify his actions, because he took said actions by choice, rather then of necessity

needless to say, i'm talking specificlly about the last arc lelouch
before that, he was more or less a anti-hero who does necessarily evil things, because he faces an empire that makes nazi germany look like a a nice place
which DOES serve as an excuse
but during the last arc, there is no excuse for his actions
he is emperor of one half of the world, and the other half is led by people he put in power
he could have created peace rather easily without needing to spill so much blood

his status as a "badass" is also questionable during the last arc
before lelouch was on the front line with his men
during that last battle, he spends almost the entire battle sitting in his ship, and sending his men to be slaughtered on mass
he only leaves the avalon after being forced to
__________________

Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2009-09-28 at 10:42.
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 10:54   Link #5646
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
its explicitly stated that he did zero requiem because he wanted to atone, rather then to be willing to choose other options to stop shnizel
that he did NOT consider any other ways that would lessen the sacrifices, because he was unwilling to consider any other path
its the way he WANTS to do it, not the only way that it can be done in
there were other ways
ones that wont require the sacrifice of so many lives for no reason other then to satisfy his own ego and desire to die

the ends justify the means, only if the ends actually REQUIRE the means, and if no other, better, means and options are available for achieving those ends
you can keep your dog from crapping on the carpet by rubbing his nose in it till it learns
or you can keep your dog from crapping on the carpet by shooting it
both would achieve the ends of not having the dog crap on the carpet
but when the first option is available, you cant justify the second one
and its the same for lelouch
you cant claim it as necessary evil, unless its actually necessary
if its NOT necessary, then its just being un-necessarily evil
which means that the end result does NOT justify his actions, because he took said actions by choice, rather then of necessity
I still believe that *that* was the only most successful way---considering its speed and effectiveness. Long-term "less-sacrificial" ways would , in truth, prolong the wars and thus, create that ironical result of having more sacrifice than not.

If I, a normal person, think about that choice-of-actions' logic. I'd end up acknowledging it being best way. And I really don't feel like questioning a "genius'" plans---not that I know if he was or not.

Quote:
needless to say, i'm talking specificlly about the last arc lelouch
before that, he was more or less a anti-hero who does necessarily evil things, because he faces an empire that makes nazi germany look like a a nice place
which DOES serve as an excuse
but during the last arc, there is no excuse for his actions
he is emperor of one half of the world, and the other half is led by people he put in power
he could have created peace rather easily without needing to spill so much blood
I believe you need to think more "long-term".
Quote:
his status as a "badass" is also questionable during the last arc
before lelouch was on the front line with his men
during that last battle, he spends almost the entire battle sitting in his ship, and sending his men to be slaughtered on mass
he only leaves the avalon after being forced to.
That was pretty "Bad" and "ass" to me.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 11:02   Link #5647
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
I still believe that *that* was the only way---considering its speed and effectiveness. Long-term "less-sacrificial"would , in truth, prolong the wars and thus, create that ironical result of having more sacrifice than not.

If I, a normal person, think about that choice of actions logic: I'm pretty sure that it was the best way. And I really don't feel like questioning a "genius'" plans---not that I know if he was or not.
think like this
option 1: sign a peace treaty, end the war, and spend the rest of your life improving the relations between the two superpowers of the world through diplomacy
option 2: kick off another round of warfare, kill countless people, conquer inslave and oppress the entire world, get killed, and then leave it to someone ELSE to do option 1 after your gone (nunnaly)
which is, in effect, what he did

Quote:
I believe you need to think more "long-term".
i am
ending the war in ep 22 with a peace treaty would have been just as effective and saved more lives then zero-requiem
zero-requiem did not end the war
it prolonged it for no reason
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 11:13   Link #5648
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
think like this
option 1: sign a peace treaty, end the war, and spend the rest of your life improving the relations between the two superpowers of the world through diplomacy
option 2: kick off another round of warfare, kill countless people, conquer inslave and oppress the entire world, get killed, and then leave it to someone ELSE to do option 1 after your gone (nunnaly)
which is, in effect, what he did
No, think like this:

Option 1: Too risky political-wise, the oppressed would continue to be oppressed, the one with greater power would continue to hold unbalanced power, thus, war won't end.

I'm telling you, as long as bad managements remain, rebellion would continue which would spur more wars.

Option 2( a better version than yours of course; which was Lelouch's way): Very efficient. No more "one-solid" unbalance power---as learned from Lelouch's example.

"it takes a million lives sacrificed for another million to understand." -Cipher, the genius quote maker.



Quote:
i am
ending the war in ep 22 with a peace treaty would have been just as effective and saved more lives then zero-requiem
zero-requiem did not end the war
it prolonged it for no reason
Nope, it didn't. Well, we don't know if it did. But chances are World war would end, some minor conflicts may arise but those could be easily extinguished.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 11:19   Link #5649
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
No, think like this:
Option 1: Too risky political-wise, the oppressed would continue to be oppressed, the one with greater power would continue to hold unbalanced power, thus, war won't end.

I'm telling you, as long as bad managements remain, rebellion would continue which would spur more wars.

Option 2: Very efficient. No more "one-solid" unbalance power---as learned from Lelouch's example.

"it takes a million lives sacrificed for another million to understand." -Cipher, the genius quote maker.
what oppressed ?
what unbalanced power ?
lelouch IS the power
he is the emperor and what he says goes
and the other side of the world is the UFN, a political body that leouch created, and its headed by people lelouch put in power in the first place
if he says "war ends today, and we sign a peace treaty" then the war ends today

Quote:
Nope, it didn't. Well, we don't know if it did. But chances are World war would end, some minor conflicts may arise but those could be easily extinguished.
the world war effectively "ended" when he won and conquered the ENTIRE world
but he could have ended it all the same in ep 22
he chose not to, and instead led the world into several more months of conflict that resulted in the deaths of god only knows how many
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 11:40   Link #5650
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what oppressed ?
what unbalanced power ?
lelouch IS the power
he is the emperor and what he says goes
and the other side of the world is the UFN, a political body that leouch created, and its headed by people lelouch put in power in the first place
if he says "war ends today, and we sign a peace treaty" then the war ends today
We were talking about the first season. When he was still planning things? Lelouch, at this point, wasn't the emperor yet. Remember?( OK maybe I got too confused there but whatever).

But if you're already headed to this then lets.

1. Two Superpowers right?
2. Lelouch Vs. His friends
3. Seems stupid right? wrong.
4. Remember, in the eyes of his friends and others (rebels) against Britannia, Lelouch, emperor, and Britannia is evil.
5. This "hatred" is the "Main" stimuli for War. If you can't remove it, then War will continuously and simultaneously pop up.( you know like those (pron?)websites popping out yeah.)
6. One solution: just gather as much hatred as you can(from both sides) and die. That way, the world would be united because of hatred.

Now, if the leaders were even a little competent, they'd effectively end war for all eternity.



Quote:
the world war effectively "ended" when he won and conquered the ENTIRE world
but he could have ended it all the same in ep 22
he chose not to, and instead led the world into several more months of conflict that resulted in the deaths of god only knows how many
The world war may have "ended" in your eyes, but this is a post-war, a period wherein wars are bound to rise up again. In a sense, the world war didn't end yet. And your way of "ending" it means prolonging it.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 12:27   Link #5651
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
We were talking about the first season. When he was still planning things? Lelouch, at this point, wasn't the emperor yet. Remember?.
no, were talking zero-requiem only here

Quote:
But if you're already headed to this then lets.

1. Two Superpowers right?
2. Lelouch Vs. His friends
3. Seems stupid right? wrong.
4. Remember, in the eyes of his friends and others (rebels) against Britannia, Lelouch, emperor, and Britannia is evil.
5. This "hatred" is the "Main" stimuli for War. If you can't remove it, then War will continuously and simultaneously pop up.( you know like those (pron?)websites popping out yeah.)
6. One solution: just gather as much hatred as you can(from both sides) and die. That way, the world would be united because of hatred.

Now, if the leaders were even a little competent, they'd effectively end war for all eternity.
lelouch can PROVE to them that he never used geass on them and that what he told them on the ikaruga was a lie (kallen could back him up on that)
pin the blame and hate for the war on the guy who actually IS resposible for it (charles)
and spend the rest of your life as a benevolent ruler who would change britannia from a position of emperor until its suitable
show them that he would change britannia effectively himself
no more cause for hate or war

Quote:
The world war may have "ended" in your eyes, but this is a post-war, a period wherein wars are bound to rise up again. In a sense, the world war didn't end yet. And your way of "ending" it means prolonging it.
smaller conflicts may still rage, but they ALWAYS do, and zero-requiem did not and could not change that
shnizel's plan might have, but it would have caused more death before it was done
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-28, 21:08   Link #5652
Revolutionist
Puppet Master
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
We were talking about the first season. When he was still planning things? Lelouch, at this point, wasn't the emperor yet. Remember?( OK maybe I got too confused there but whatever).

But if you're already headed to this then lets.

1. Two Superpowers right?
2. Lelouch Vs. His friends
3. Seems stupid right? wrong.
4. Remember, in the eyes of his friends and others (rebels) against Britannia, Lelouch, emperor, and Britannia is evil.
5. This "hatred" is the "Main" stimuli for War. If you can't remove it, then War will continuously and simultaneously pop up.( you know like those (pron?)websites popping out yeah.)
6. One solution: just gather as much hatred as you can(from both sides) and die. That way, the world would be united because of hatred.

Now, if the leaders were even a little competent, they'd effectively end war for all eternity.




The world war may have "ended" in your eyes, but this is a post-war, a period wherein wars are bound to rise up again. In a sense, the world war didn't end yet. And your way of "ending" it means prolonging it.
He could've ruled like the just Emperor he started out, and even if the Black Knights mistrusted him they couldn't do a thing because even people from within the UFN supported Lelouch's actions. He didn't even need to take over the UFN to change the world. By changing Britannia peacefully he was already changing over half of the world.
__________________
I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark
Revolutionist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-29, 04:26   Link #5653
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
no, were talking zero-requiem only here


lelouch can PROVE to them that he never used geass on them and that what he told them on the ikaruga was a lie (kallen could back him up on that)
pin the blame and hate for the war on the guy who actually IS resposible for it (charles)
and spend the rest of your life as a benevolent ruler who would change britannia from a position of emperor until its suitable
show them that he would change britannia effectively himself
no more cause for hate or war
I was talking about rebels' Nationalism and the prior *Bad* history of Britannia and its rulers that would create more rebellion.

As a result, at this point, people were too "hating" on each other. Its a matter of bringing down that *hate*.

Quote:
smaller conflicts may still rage, but they ALWAYS do, and zero-requiem did not and could not change that.
Smaller conflicts will arise(depends on the future leaders), perhaps, but the *main issue* of unending World War critical was ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
He could've ruled like the just Emperor he started out, and even if the Black Knights mistrusted him they couldn't do a thing because even people from within the UFN supported Lelouch's actions. He didn't even need to take over the UFN to change the world. By changing Britannia peacefully he was already changing over half of the world.
The situation was clearly far from this. You can't erase this immense hate (from history) by just "being" good, you have to die.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-29, 04:32   Link #5654
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
it was not an "unending" world war
it was a result of charles's insane worldview that led him to attack the entire world

and creating MORE atrocities is the WORST thing lelouch could have done if he was trying to end the hate that the world has for britannia
at a time where what the world needed was a new, better britannian emperor to show that charles was a blacksheep, and that the rest of the royal family is composed of sane caring individuals who were simply following the orders of a madman out of no choice
lelouch instead shows that not only are the entire royal family insane meglomaniacs who are out for power for themselves, and that charles was simply the standard
but that they should also never again be trusted, even if they "seem" nice because its all just a lie

instead of rebuilding the worlds trust in the royal family, lelouch tanked it completely
i'm shocked that people agree to have nunnaly as empress after seeing how crazy her bloodline is
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-29, 04:35   Link #5655
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
it was not an "unending" world war
it was a result of charles's insane worldview that led him to attack the entire world

and creating MORE atrocities is the WORST thing lelouch could have done if he was trying to end the hate that the world has for britannia
at a time where what the world needed was a new, better britannian emperor to show that charles was a blacksheep, and that the rest of the royal family is composed of sane caring individuals who were simply following the orders of a madman out of no choice
lelouch instead shows that not only are the entire royal family insane meglomaniacs who are out for power for themselves, and that charles was simply the standard
but that they should also never again be trusted, even if they "seem" nice because its all just a lie
You can't change people's opinions by simply being "nice". You have to be mean, then die.

A world at constant brink of war is an already unending war itself.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-29, 04:37   Link #5656
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
You can't change people's opinions by simply being "nice". You have to be mean, then die.
could you please re-read your own comment and explain how it makes ANY sense
britannia was considered mean
so the solution is to be meaner ?
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-29, 04:39   Link #5657
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
could you please re-read your own comment and explain how it makes ANY sense
britannia was considered mean
so the solution is to be meaner ?
Yes. Reality isn't as "nice" as you think it is. Within that deep history of pain and suffering, forgiveness can only be considered a miracle.

Being meaner makes the hate more intense, thus, increasing its emotional concentration effect towards the people.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-29, 04:41   Link #5658
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
and again
how is that going to help

people hated britannia when it was under charles
then lelouch comes along and shows that even when charles is GONE, britannia is still horrible
how is that going to LESSEN the hate ?
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-29, 04:46   Link #5659
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and again
how is that going to help

people hated britannia when it was under charles
then lelouch comes along and shows that even when charles is GONE, britannia is still horrible
how is that going to LESSEN the hate ?
Imagine a balloon. Increase the air(hate) so much, then let it explode using a needle (death).

At this point, Britannia is not Lelouch anymore. Britannians and "Others" are now all considered as "victims" and Lelouch as "oppressor".

Effectively diverting the hate from each other and towards him(then with a "dramatically" effective death), he "exploded" *that* hate.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-29, 04:50   Link #5660
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
because everyone was so happy to forgive nazi germany after hitler died right ?
it doesnt work like that, and it makes no sense at all

lelouch could have simply used charles as the puppet (considering that he was actually to blame for the war)
and spend his life showing the entire world that charles was a one time thing, and that its only under HIM that britannia was so horrible
instead he ended up giving people MORE reason to hate britannia
and how nunnaly is able to still be empress when she's his sister, is beyond me
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.