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Old 2009-09-29, 04:57   Link #5661
Cipher
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
because everyone was so happy to forgive nazi germany after hitler died right ?
Because Hitler was still "nice" to Nazi Germany. If only he made himself everyone's one and only enemy.

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lelouch could have simply used charles as the puppet (considering that he was actually to blame for the war)
and spend his life showing the entire world that charles was a one time thing, and that its only under HIM that britannia was so horrible
instead he ended up giving people MORE reason to hate britannia
and how nunnaly is able to still be empress when she's his sister, is beyond me.
A country is not its land but "its people". Lelouch absorbed (to him) that hate towards britannians by letting britannians, like "others", suffer under him as well.

People were united by hate(ironically).

We don't have a 3rd season so we don't know what'll really happen( but you can tell it was really peaceful). Maybe they'll even be united as one world (all because of Lelouch).

He used "evil" as a way to create "good".
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Old 2009-09-29, 05:06   Link #5662
bladeofdarkness
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the idea that people are quick to forget old hate in favor of new one is cute
but its unacceptable to intentionally murder countless people just to invoke such a response
using diplomacy might have taken longer, but it would be a realistic solution to the problem
instead we get more death and destruction, and no reason to believe people would ever forgive or forget what came before it
he used "evil" to create "good" when he could have used "good" to create "good" instead

if there IS a 3rd season at some point
is seriously hope that the villain in it would end up being someone who lost his loved ones to lelouch's reign of terror and who figured out the truth about zero-requiem
which drives him to try and destroy zero-zaku
not because of being racist or power hungry, but out of the belief that a man resposible for the worst crime against humanity ever commited, should not be allowed to pretend to be a hero for it

i kinda think having lelouch's master plan turn out to be a "nice job breaking it, hero" kinda deal very much in character
and would give the 3rd season the same "either side might actaully be right" tone to it that made code geass great
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Old 2009-09-29, 05:16   Link #5663
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the idea that people are quick to forget old hate in favor of new one is cute.
you've never experienced fights like these before?

If 1 kicks 2, 2 kicks 1 back. They then start kicking each other. However, If 3 pwnsomely beats up both 2 and 1 and runs. 2 and 1 will try to chase and beat him up. If 3 escapes, 2 and 1 starts looking for ways to get revenge, and through that, they'll befriend each other more.

Once 3 is beaten up, 1 and 2 are already friends.


Quote:
using diplomacy might have taken longer, but it would be a realistic solution to the problem
How many would have died during this "diplomacy"?

Actually more than in comparison to the war violently ending.

If you can't erase deep hate with actions, how useless do you think diplomacy and words would be?
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Old 2009-09-29, 05:20   Link #5664
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earsing hate and changing the way people think about you is the whole POINT of diplomacy
and there wouldnt BE any people dying during the diplomacy because THERE WOULDNT BE ANY WAR
if lelouch tells the britannian army to stand down, they stand down
if the UFN tells their soldiers to stand down they stand down
there was a cease-fire
how else do you think lelouch can just show up, and mean face to face with the UFN leaders
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Old 2009-09-29, 05:28   Link #5665
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
earsing hate and changing the way people think about you is the whole POINT of diplomacy
The whole point of diplomacy(in Code Geass) is "pausing the war to think and relax" while rebellions/ minor wars all over are ongoing.

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and there wouldnt BE any people dying during the diplomacy because THERE WOULDNT BE ANY WAR
I do believe in diplomacy---just not in this situation. Even with a peace-treaty, conflicts would still continously rise due to the *immense* hate and emotion.
Quote:
if lelouch tells the britannian army to stand down, they stand down
if the UFN tells their soldiers to stand down they stand down
there was a cease-fire
how else do you think lelouch can just show up, and mean face to face with the UFN leaders
This is because Lelouch understands the "true" situation. He looks at the world for long term and short term efficiency.
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Old 2009-09-29, 05:31   Link #5666
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
you've never experienced fights like these before?

If 1 kicks 2, 2 kicks 1 back. They then start kicking each other. However, If 3 pwnsomely beats up both 2 and 1 and runs. 2 and 1 will try to chase and beat him up. If 3 escapes, 2 and 1 starts looking for ways to get revenge, and through that, they'll befriend each other more.

Once 3 is beaten up, 1 and 2 are already friends.
It has been my experience that once 3 beats 2 and 1 up and leaves, that the first one to get up again (between 1 and 2) will pick up a rock and bash the other's unconcious skull in. Then they'll wait until 3 falls asleep and repeat the process.


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:How many would have died during this "diplomacy"?

Actually more than in comparison to the war violently ending.

If you can't erase deep hate with actions, how useless do you think diplomacy and words would be?
This is the crux of the debate between Lelouch and Suzaku's ideologies at the start of the series. People will die one way or another, either because change happens too quickly, or because it doesn't happen quickly enough.

The thing is, at the start of the series, Lelouch and Suzaku have almost no power. By the ZR arc, they rule half the world, and the other half called Lelouch the Emperor of Justice. The UFN was going to accept him, until he went crazy on them.

Hate is irrelevant. Most real world countries still dislike and distrust each other at best, but they get along anyway thanks to diplomacy.

You seem to be the one who thinks reality is nicer than it really is, not blade.
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Old 2009-09-29, 05:34   Link #5667
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The whole point of diplomacy(in Code Geass) is "pausing the war to think and relax" while rebellions/ minor wars all over are ongoing.
no...
thats step one
already in place
step two is signing a fucking peace treaty and pulling back his forces from anywhere that is NOT britannian territory
hence, no war

Quote:
I do believe in diplomacy---just not in this situation. Even with a peace-treaty, conflicts would still constantly rise due to *immense* hate and emotion.
the whole POINT of peace treaties is to PREVENT conflicts
besides, who's going to take part in said conflicts ?
britannia's army is in britannia
the UFN's army is in the UFN
who's going to fight ?

Quote:
This is because Lelouch understands the "true" situation. He looks at the world for long term and short term efficiency.
as is shnizel
and as did charles
the problem with lelouch's plan wasnt its effectiveness, but its necessity
he had other, more peaceful ways, and he intentionally didnt go there because he wanted THAT path
he wanted to DIE to atone
too bad he has an ego the size of japan, and cant simply shoot himself
so instead he drags the whole world into another round of fighting, just so his death would have "meaning"
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Old 2009-09-29, 05:41   Link #5668
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It has been my experience that once 3 beats 2 and 1 up and leaves, that the first one to get up again (between 1 and 2) will pick up a rock and bash the other's unconcious skull in. Then they'll wait until 3 falls asleep and repeat the process.




This is the crux of the debate between Lelouch and Suzaku's ideologies at the start of the series. People will die one way or another, either because change happens too quickly, or because it doesn't happen quickly enough.

The thing is, at the start of the series, Lelouch and Suzaku have almost no power. By the ZR arc, they rule half the world, and the other half called Lelouch the Emperor of Justice. The UFN was going to accept him, until he went crazy on them.

Hate is irrelevant. Most real world countries still dislike and distrust each other at best, but they get along anyway thanks to diplomacy.

You seem to be the one who thinks reality is nicer than it really is, not blade.
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
no...
thats step one
already in place
step two is signing a fucking peace treaty and pulling back his forces from anywhere that is NOT britannian territory
hence, no war.



the whole POINT of peace treaties is to PREVENT conflicts
besides, who's going to take part in said conflicts ?
britannia's army is in britannia
the UFN's army is in the UFN
who's going to fight ?


as is shnizel
and as did charles
the problem with lelouch's plan wasnt its effectiveness, but its necessity
he had other, more peaceful ways, and he intentionally didnt go there because he wanted THAT path
he wanted to DIE to atone
too bad he has an ego the size of japan, and cant simply shoot himself
so instead he drags the whole world into another round of fighting, just so his death would have "meaning"
Ok Ok, I give in you guys.

I don't have much war education so my assumptions might be the less realistic one.


I still want to justify the show a bit more though...Reality can never be fantasy I guess..

Just one question: Britannia is the U.S., right? and the "UFN" was all the AREAS?
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Old 2009-09-29, 05:57   Link #5669
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its not about giving up
its about seeing the flaws
its about seeing what they DID, rather then what they SHOULD have done

the problem was that they COULD have made lelouch's plan more heroic by having him focus on stopping shnizel
by having him make it clear that he is becoming a monster, because normal people cant fight against something like the damocles
that a normal commander who cares about his soldiers could never send them against something that could wipe them out by the thousands with every shot, and there for the only one who can fight it is someone who views his soldiers as disposable ants
that a ruler who cares about his people would be forced to surrender the second the damocels shows up on his front door, and so the only leader able to oppose it, is someone who could not care less if his entire country turns to dust
that he HAS to attack the UFN in order to make shnizel want to side with them, and thus spare them from the flejias
that the end result of having him conquer the world by taking over the damocles was a RESULT of winning the battle, rather then an INTENTION all along
and that having suzaku kill him was done, not out of some bullshit claim that he would earse the worlds hate, but out of a belief that he (monster that he has become) has no place in this world anymore
he doesnt try to CHANGE the world with some bullshit plot, but he SAVES it from a greater evil, and then leaves it in the hands of its people

they COULD have done that
but they didnt
instead lelouch sets out to conquer the world as a GOAL, and shnizel is simply in the way of his larger plan
and lelouch's plan is just as arbitrary and egomaniacal as shnizel's

instead of having lelouch be a tragic hero FORCED to become a monster to stop a greater monster
he is instead just as much of a prick as shnizel and charles for deciding that "he knows best whats good for the world"
and the end battle is basiclly two "well intentioned extremist" villains battling it out over who gets to implement his own masterplan

and yes, its suppose to be a bullshit allegory for the US i suppose
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Old 2009-09-29, 06:12   Link #5670
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I'm not sure about the complexities within the show anymore but having Lelouch(the main character) die and others realizing their mistake still satisfies me.

Its strange, but your right, people stand from war's dust not to prepare for another attack of hate but to rebuild themselves with the want of survival. This goes well with diplomacy and the "better course of actions".

If the mentality of humans within Code Geass wasn't like this, then I could've looked at the show in a brighter light.
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Old 2009-09-29, 06:18   Link #5671
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
its not about giving up
its about seeing the flaws
its about seeing what they DID, rather then what they SHOULD have done

the problem was that they COULD have made lelouch's plan more heroic by having him focus on stopping shnizel
by having him make it clear that he is becoming a monster, because normal people cant fight against something like the damocles
that a normal commander who cares about his soldiers could never send them against something that could wipe them out by the thousands with every shot, and there for the only one who can fight it is someone who views his soldiers as disposable ants
that a ruler who cares about his people would be forced to surrender the second the damocels shows up on his front door, and so the only leader able to oppose it, is someone who could not care less if his entire country turns to dust
that he HAS to attack the UFN in order to make shnizel want to side with them, and thus spare them from the flejias
that the end result of having him conquer the world by taking over the damocles was a RESULT of winning the battle, rather then an INTENTION all along
and that having suzaku kill him was done, not out of some bullshit claim that he would earse the worlds hate, but out of a belief that he (monster that he has become) has no place in this world anymore
he doesnt try to CHANGE the world with some bullshit plot, but he SAVES it from a greater evil, and then leaves it in the hands of its people

they COULD have done that
but they didnt
instead lelouch sets out to conquer the world as a GOAL, and shnizel is simply in the way of his larger plan
and lelouch's plan is just as arbitrary and egomaniacal as shnizel's

instead of having lelouch be a tragic hero FORCED to become a monster to stop a greater monster
he is instead just as much of a prick as shnizel and charles for deciding that "he knows best whats good for the world"
and the end battle is basiclly two "well intentioned extremist" villains battling it out over who gets to implement his own masterplan

and yes, its suppose to be a bullshit allegory for the US i suppose

Well said.

Though we may have to consider that the show intended for it to come across like your initial thought there Blade. But poor execution hampered the climax of the storyline.

Good intentions, bad follow-through. Instead of getting something somewhat deep we got a half assed "meh they'll get the essential point probably."
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Old 2009-09-29, 06:21   Link #5672
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other then nunnaly and kallen, no one realized their mistake
and its questionable if there even WAS a mistake on their part
lelouch WAS trying to conquer the world, and so they opposed him
they couldnt know that he was planing to take over the entire world as STEP ONE

@yvj
i dont know
the scene in ep 22 when they are talking about conquering the world and spilling rivers of blood is the one truth thing that stands in defiance of my theory
and is part of what made me so angry at lelouch during that entire arc
he planned to do all this from the start
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Old 2009-09-29, 06:30   Link #5673
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other then nunnaly and kallen, no one realized their mistake
and its questionable if there even WAS a mistake on their part
Your right, there was no mistake. But still, having the ending executed that way made it "feel" like there was a mistake. That "feeling" is pretty awesome.


Quote:
the scene in ep 22 when they are talking about conquering the world and spilling rivers of blood is the one truth thing that stands in defiance of my theory
and is part of what made me so angry at lelouch during that entire arc
he planned to do all this from the start
It makes it "less-boring" for the viewers?
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Old 2009-09-29, 06:33   Link #5674
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less boring ? yes
but considering that i absolutely HATED lelouch during the entire final arc, i could have done without it
they could have still followed my script and had a huge battle, but without turning lelouch into a mega prick
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Old 2009-09-29, 06:36   Link #5675
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@yvj
i dont know
the scene in ep 22 when they are talking about conquering the world and spilling rivers of blood is the one truth thing that stands in defiance of my theory
and is part of what made me so angry at lelouch during that entire arc
he planned to do all this from the start
There is something to be said about false bravado. And basically they wanted to get the point across that Lelouch is pretty much an extreme method actor.

I think this problem comes with the rush in between immediately after Lelouch defeated Charles to him becoming Emperor.

There's not much insight into the thought process and why ZR had to be the end all be all.

Needed more of a Treize Khushrenada like clarity on the plan.
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Old 2009-09-29, 06:37   Link #5676
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its not the false bravado that bothers me
its that he comments that it almost sounds FUNNY to say it out loud
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Old 2009-09-29, 06:39   Link #5677
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There is something to be said about false bravado. And basically they wanted to get the point across that Lelouch is pretty much an extreme method actor.

I think this problem comes with the rush in between immediately after Lelouch defeated Charles to him becoming Emperor.

There's not much insight into the thought process and why ZR had to be the end all be all.

Needed more of a Treize Khushrenada like clarity on the plan.
Yeah, its just a show for profit.

And Lelouch was....the main product.
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Old 2009-09-29, 06:45   Link #5678
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its not the false bravado that bothers me
its that he comments that it almost sounds FUNNY to say it out loud
Well he is committing to the part 100% as we see nothing but a few brief moments with people really close to him break his acting job. Once deciding to be Demon Emperor he is the Demon Emperor and he likely felt any weakness he showed, any sympathetic cracks in the armor you might say, would lead to thoughts of doubt or become so slippery slope that would F up the plan.

Not to say he was right in being an ass, but with proper examination of his insights into ZR, we could have had a proper explanation to why he felt he had no choice but to be an ass.
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Old 2009-09-29, 06:48   Link #5679
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Yeah, its just a show for profit.

And Lelouch was....the main product.
he did this in private in the garden with suzaku

@yvj
thats the problem
he didnt need to be an ass
and we dont know why he felt that he did
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Old 2009-09-29, 09:23   Link #5680
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There is something to be said about false bravado. And basically they wanted to get the point across that Lelouch is pretty much an extreme method actor.

I think this problem comes with the rush in between immediately after Lelouch defeated Charles to him becoming Emperor.

There's not much insight into the thought process and why ZR had to be the end all be all.

Needed more of a Treize Khushrenada like clarity on the plan.
Treize's plan wasn't very clear, at least not that I remember. He deposed Relena because Zechs had created the perfect stage for him to play on. Treize didn't go to battle expecting to die, he wanted to settle the war by dueling Zechs, but after his duel was denied he decided to play along and see things through to the end. He never intended to die in battle to free the world like Lelouch.

He chose to die because whatever the outcome that would probably be the last great battle. It was basically the perfect stage for him to go down, at the hands of someone worthy like Wufei. Treize loved war, in a romantic sort of way much like Cornelia. He never set out to end conflicts.
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