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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 16 20.51%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 16 20.51%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 24 30.77%
7 out of 10 : Good 16 20.51%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.85%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.56%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.28%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-02-06, 04:56   Link #161
jin07
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I equated it because:

shallow: lacking in depth and when used as a derogative term equates to superficial (among other things). I think we agree on that.

Superficial: presenting only an appearance without substance or significance (Merriam-Webster)


Underdeveloped: not adequately developed

For developed I couldn't really find anything specially about characters in fiction (kept getting it in relation to countries). But when I think of a developed character I think of someone with substance.

Although now that I look at it a little closer I probably committed the Fallacy of Equivocation by mistake. I usually don't vet stuff I post on anime forums beyond trying to find spelling errors.

Thanks for pointing out the Yoshida starting to like Yuuji thing. I forgot about that since I saw that episode a couple years ago. Still I don't think I'll continue this since it has turned less into a debate about a fictional character and more about attacking me.
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Old 2008-02-06, 06:31   Link #162
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Really Kazumi is just an unnecessary obstacle, just from the opening you can tell she's gonna be that stupid retard that gets kidnapped because she insist in being in a world she doesn't belong in causing an unnecessary battle being leverage for the bad guys...
I don't think she's going to be kidnapped, much in the same way we never saw Shana fight Sydonay or Sydonay ever use his staff to fight, even though those show up in OPs.
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Old 2008-02-06, 07:32   Link #163
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I guess a major event / plot turn presents an opportunity for a character to make a choice, a chance to make a turning point and a decision, and this pretty much resonates around the viewers too, with the much stronger and decisive opinions on Yoshida Kazumi. There are those who see this as a chance for her to exit the scene, and others who see that she will become stronger. Regardless of the outcome, isn't it nice that the overall plot has finally progressed out of the "day-by-day" school life, and finally have some anticipation as to what will come next? I think we should all take this in a healthy fashion and not take the discussion too personally. We all develop feelings towards the characters, but let's not overstep and force opinions onto others.

I agree that Kazumi's (I guess it would be impolite to address strangers by their first name, but I think we can safely refer to the characters as our "friends") character has not been fully developed in the story, and she seems so close and yet so far. We roughly know her personality, that she is polite and shy, and passionate and persistent when it comes to emotional matters. She also seems like the kind that is organised, loves the simple little things of life, and one who wants to lead a simple, peaceful, and maybe idealised romantic life. However, we hardly see her everyday life. We do not know her hobbies and life outside of school (Yuji and Yukari visit the CD store after school, Hayato plays the arcade, has cram school), and there are no opportunities for her to show the different sides of her life (she's good at cooking, but we don't see that except just the bentos that she prepares). We hardly see her normal life outside school, except for weirdly-timed sequences like the midnight dog walk.

Yet, she has been given a relatively big role in the story, being an important part as a catalyst and motivation for the development of Yuji's and Shana's relationship, and at the same time, having her own feelings deeply examined in several episodes. There would be no denying that any discussion on emotions of love would be incomplete without jealousy, and one would not exist without the other, for jealousy turns love into something that needs to be protected and makes it precious. Besides, the development of feelings through human interaction, the understanding of love through jealousy, can also be contrasted with the Tomogara's definition of love, which is twisted and unfounded, and has no basis of understanding. (This is just my opinion, I guess this could lead to a discussion from The Matrix, on whether non-humans can truly understand love and human emotions from their literal meaning.)

It would be hard to make a decision if all we know is Kazumi's feelings for Yuji, and yet we know so little of her in person. Perhaps... that is how Yuji feels too?

It would be unfair to say the Kazumi does not play an important role in the plot. However, it would seem that her role is unbalanced, and it is this awkardness is causing much of the polar arguments.
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Old 2008-02-06, 14:25   Link #164
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You know what I think? I think Kazumi needs her own episode. It should settle the arguments you guys have been ranting on and on about for hours...
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Old 2008-02-06, 14:50   Link #165
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
I mentioned this before, but I think that seeing Shana and Yuji discovering what its like to be in a real relationship and at the same time deal with the dangers of their super natural lives. For once I would like to see that, rather than a beaten to death Love Triangle.
That's what I would like to that sort of relationship between Yuji and Shana to get into but instead were getting a old tired out love triangle going between Shan, Yuji and Yoshida for two seasons now. This is why I want Yoshida to finally go away (not to die per say) as long she's there this whole love triangle will still be going, I have a bad feeling if there's a 3rd season there still be doing the whole love triangle plot. It doesn't exactly help her character that pretty much she's shown it's mostly her whining about wishing to get closer to Yuji another thing I feel that's really gotten old and tired out she's been doing this since season one.
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Old 2008-02-06, 14:51   Link #166
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Well, no matter what anyone says, I liked the episode quite a bit^^
I gave it a 8 out of 10

It was a good cooldown episode after such a packed action episode last week. We learn more about Yuji's situation and get to see how everyone is reacting to the latest developments. I like how Yuji is finally going to begin his training with Blutsauger. It's a bit late, but who cares. Now we can see Yuji kick some ass

And I don't mind the Kazumi scenes at all. I don't like her character very much, but that's because she hasn't done much in the series. She's there for the romantic part of the story, but when it comes to action, she's useless. But I do realize and understand why she's in the situation she is now. She likes Yuji and she knows that she's close to him, but at the same time she's far away, because they live in 'different worlds'

Just like Shana, Kazumi wants to be with Yuji no matter what and she's willing to do everything to walk into that other world. But she's no flame haze or guze no tomogara. She's just a human who can't do anything but watch. She hates this and gets emotional about it, especially because she can see that Shana and Yuji are getting closer in that world. She reacts like I would react if I were to be in the same situation. It's only human.

I agree that we need to learn a bit more about her character though. She's a bit underdevelopped. I agree with that. She has to put some spicy situations in the love triangle. We need some action in that department as well. But don't get me wrong, I'm a Yuji x Shana fan all the way:P
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Old 2008-02-06, 16:46   Link #167
cryx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minhtam2448 View Post
You know what I think? I think Kazumi needs her own episode. It should settle the arguments you guys have been ranting on and on about for hours...
Guess she's getting more attention than she needs, eh? Even Hayato, with his own episode, doesn't get this much discussion...

Spoiler for Possible spoiler, but may be just wrong info:


Seems like he really doesn't matter much anymore...

Last edited by cryx; 2008-02-06 at 21:55.
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Old 2008-02-06, 17:30   Link #168
teachopvutru
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Originally Posted by minhtam2448 View Post
You know what I think? I think Kazumi needs her own episode. It should settle the arguments you guys have been ranting on and on about for hours...
And this thread should become the Yoshida Kazumi Character Discussion Thread instead. (and last episode thread becomes Sakai Yuji Character Discussion Thread)

I'm ready for a Shana one.
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Old 2008-02-06, 19:41   Link #169
Owaranai Destiny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cryx View Post
Guess she's getting more attention than she needs, eh? Even Hayato, with his own episode, doesn't get this much discussion...
Spoiler for Not out yet in the anime!:
You might want to put that in a spoiler tag, actually, since I'm pretty sure there are people out there who don't know about Ike.

@ jin07: I must have given you that impression. Sorry, I don't attack people. I attack their arguments.

For Kazumi to give up, I'm getting the feeling that only Yuuji can actually manage to do that. Once he rejects her completely, that should end everything in the love triangle.
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Old 2008-02-06, 19:50   Link #170
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Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny View Post
You might want to put that in a spoiler tag, actually, since I'm pretty sure there are people out there who don't know about Ike.

@ jin07: I must have given you that impression. Sorry, I don't attack people. I attack their arguments.

For Kazumi to give up, I'm getting the feeling that only Yuuji can actually manage to do that. Once he rejects her completely, that should end everything in the love triangle.
It's not a spoiler as it's not true
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Old 2008-02-06, 21:54   Link #171
cryx
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It's not a spoiler as it's not true
Yup, I thought it wasn't true... think it's mentioned from the novels discussion thread. But guess I could've been more careful though, since it is something undiscussed before here.
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Old 2008-02-07, 01:13   Link #172
HayashiTakara
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Kazumi should become a torch be happy for a week that she finally got to be apart of the super natural world, then disappear forever. thats a happy ending if I ever saw one.
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Old 2008-02-07, 01:28   Link #173
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Kazumi should become a torch be happy for a week that she finally got to be apart of the super natural world, then disappear forever. thats a happy ending if I ever saw one.
Yeah? Well how about... NO!!

I don't really agree that that's a happy ending.
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Old 2008-02-07, 03:14   Link #174
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Kazumi is the kind of character that you don't want around because she gets in the way of screen time for the main characters. She's certainly important to the story, but she's not popular because it feels like she doesn't fit in - with the supernatural world, with Yuji and Shana's relationship, none of it really. It's easily understandable why she's in the story and it's easy to see why she'd be unpopular, but she has a roll to play and that's all there is to it. At least she's more pivotal than the crap we had to put up with for half the second season involving Konoe.

I don't know what happens in the novels but it seems like there are only two roads to go in the Shana universe - you either become supernatural, or you fade out of the story. What I believe is that her new trinket is the most pivotal element of the story so far, because it's setting up a tragic element.

Personally I don't know what I would do in her position. Such a terrible choice to give someone. Sometimes I ponder if it's just a test by Pheles.
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Old 2008-02-07, 12:59   Link #175
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Wow i knew people thought Yoshida was annoying but damn a lot of people are actually wishing for her death. I dont think i would want to see her die plus god knows what it would do to Yuuji i think he would lose it. So far none of his close friends have died he has not prepared himself for that possibility yet.
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Old 2008-02-07, 23:46   Link #176
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I finally got around to seeing the subs, and I will only make this comment.

Hooray for Yuji snapping out of his recent funk, and asking for blutsauger! I don't necessarily blame him for his recent passivity (silver coming out of his chest must have been a shock), but it's nice to see the quietly assertive Sakai Yuji make a comeback, as opposed to the moping panicky guy we've seen the last couple of eps.
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Old 2008-02-08, 00:00   Link #177
holyman282
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Wow just watched this ep! What a turn of events! When i first saw the preview in ep 15 i thought Yoshida was finally going to be useful with a hougo of her own, but it turns out that the Hougo is to summon Pheles and it would kill her!

I guess that's one way to resolve the Yoshida/Shana/Yuji love triangle... Instead of hooking her up with Ike, you could just kill her off i guess lol..

I'm not sure why everyone hates Yoshida, but wanting her to die is a bit harsh don't you think? I really felt sorry for her this ep especially when you thought that once she disappears Shana and Yuji would be together.... That is sad....

Also really liked the new OP Yuji looks so cool with the Blautsauger!!!
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Old 2008-02-08, 05:14   Link #178
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I'm not sure why everyone hates Yoshida, but wanting her to die is a bit harsh don't you think?
Spoiler for Warning! Long rant follows:
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Old 2008-02-12, 12:46   Link #179
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Ok so I only just started watching this ep now since I'm lazy.

But I will say I just watched the best OP artistically in years.
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Old 2009-09-29, 19:28   Link #180
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Kinda Harsh there Pheles, wow. the thing is, even if Kazumi were to use that, Yuji would still remember her , and depending on the circumstances of using it, would feel horrible.
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