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Old 2009-09-29, 17:58   Link #2181
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
He's also supposed to be "omnibenevolent", which, combined with his other omnis, I find inconsistent with the state of the world. Of course, it might just be a problem with the notion of benevolence. But if he's not benevolent as we people mean the word, then why should we people use that word to describe him?
For me, giving humans a chance to be saved when by all rights he could've just let us all go to Hell is enough to call him benevolent. And this is the first time I've ever heard of omnibenevolent, hmm, I learn something new everyday.
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I mean, He might have some kind of moral system where bad things sometimes happening to good people is good, and He might be its perfect expression - but if a man rejoiced about babies getting stuffed in fridges, we'd call him a jerk, not benevolent.
It's not that bad things happening to good people is good. But the life after this life is more important since that one will last for eternity. So God tells the believers to hold on to their faith even when bad things happen to them in this life and they will be rewarded in the next life. (That doesn't mean that believers shouldn't care at all about what's happening in this life.)
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Old 2009-09-29, 18:05   Link #2182
Anh_Minh
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His condemning most of humanity to Hell in the first place isn't selling his benevolence to me, though.

And as for what happens in this life - we, as limited beings, must make compromises. Trade offs. That's why suffering now for a benefit later makes sense. That's why we have to decide the relative importance of things and make choices. God, though, isn't supposed to be limited. Therefore, our suffering is also something he decided just because he felt like it.
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Old 2009-09-29, 19:13   Link #2183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
His condemning most of humanity to Hell in the first place isn't selling his benevolence to me, though.
The reason is because when you think of Hell you think of eternal suffering, from my understanding it is the lack of God's prescence meaning you do not have the protection of God meaning satan can do anything he wants to you. So it is not God doing anything bad, you rejected him, he rejects you that is all there is to it.

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Old 2009-09-29, 19:18   Link #2184
Raiga
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Why doesn't God get rid of Satan?

The "rejection" wording has also always bothered me... I fail to see how I can "reject" something that I never accepted in the first place.
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Old 2009-09-29, 19:19   Link #2185
Kytherno
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Atheist.
I just believe I shouldn't read a huge book, pray everyday, and sing songs about some entity that I have no proof exists. And I've been too lazy to try any other religion, but if i had to try one, it'd be Buddhism.

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Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Why doesn't God get rid of Satan?

The "rejection" wording has also always bothered me... I fail to see how I can "reject" something that I never accepted in the first place.
I'm not an expert on it, but my dad is heavily religious. Not sure of the accuracy of it but...

When god created the angels, he told them all they could have free will and that he wouldn't kill/destroy them. And when angels turned evil, God couldn't break his own rule, so he placed them in Hell.
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Old 2009-09-29, 19:29   Link #2186
Raiga
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So wait-- is the Judeo-Christian God omnipotent or not? I've never been quite clear on that.
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Old 2009-09-29, 21:07   Link #2187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
So wait-- is the Judeo-Christian God omnipotent or not? I've never been quite clear on that.
The way I understand it, back when I was forced to take confirmation classes, is this:

In the beginning, God created Heaven and Earth. He filled Heaven with angels; beings he could use to help him oversee the goings on of Earth, and basically do things he needed done. Angels were not given free will. Instead, they were bound to God's will. Those who defied God's will (Lucifer may be the most recognizable), were banished from Gods realm. Certainly Satan was not the only one, but he is obviously the most prominent.

On Earth, God created man, in God's image. God gave man freewill, but set rules in place to keep man in check. God also created woman, under the same pretenses. From here, it's just the basic "Garden of Eden" story. If you're not completely clear on it, read the Book of Genesis.

Anyway, how I interpret all this being relative is as such. God is omnipotent, but only outside of the points where freewill must intervene. Example: You are faced with a decision to go left or right down a path. God put you at that crossroads. He knows what will happen if you choose the right path, and he knows what will happen if you choose the left path. What he does not know is what path you will choose, for that is outside the realm of his omniscience, because it lies within the realm of the freewill of man.

If someone has a greater understanding about this subject, feel free to interject. As I said, my knowledge about this subject is not so vast for me to assume I am correct. This is simply what I was taught when I was still being dragged to church by my parents.
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Old 2009-09-29, 21:43   Link #2188
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
No, because there is evidence that they are true: scientific laws are created by humans for the purpose of fitting all the data (while theories explain the reasons for the data). If there is not enough evidence, then there will be no law in the first place.
So fitting the data is enough to consider it "law"? Its enough evidence to consider it solid truth?

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It's "proven to fit the data," because that's what they were created to do; there is no reason not to believe in it without contradicting evidence, in which case the law is disproven and replaced.
Its proven to fit the data, but its not proven as a whole? Is this really enough truth for the word "law"? I understand its practicality and its uses for simplicity but I believe this needs more clarification.
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Old 2009-09-29, 21:48   Link #2189
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
The reason is because when you think of Hell you think of eternal suffering, from my understanding it is the lack of God's prescence meaning you do not have the protection of God meaning satan can do anything he wants to you. So it is not God doing anything bad, you rejected him, he rejects you that is all there is to it.

@Vexx I'm pentecostal
Thanks... sometimes I don't think casual or non-believers realize just how broad the scope of belief variants there are in Christianity. Now people can wiki/google and get some idea of that particular faith.

I had 7th-Day Adventists catch me at my door today..... they always ask me about my faith, and it never fails to leave them a bit disoriented. Almost all of their playbook seems to assume some other Christian sect or passive belief in the Bible. Questioning the book itself or having someone quote similar passages from Buddhist, Hindu, or other belief texts is not something they're usually trained for. But I'm nice and friendly and let them leave their interesting little pamphlets.
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Old 2009-09-29, 22:02   Link #2190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Thanks... sometimes I don't think casual or non-believers realize just how broad the scope of belief variants there are in Christianity. Now people can wiki/google and get some idea of that particular faith.

I had 7th-Day Adventists catch me at my door today..... they always ask me about my faith, and it never fails to leave them a bit disoriented. Almost all of their playbook seems to assume some other Christian sect or passive belief in the Bible. Questioning the book itself or having someone quote similar passages from Buddhist, Hindu, or other belief texts is not something they're usually trained for. But I'm nice and friendly and let them leave their interesting little pamphlets.
"Passive Christianity" tends to be the number one thing wrong with the faithful these days.
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Old 2009-09-29, 22:09   Link #2191
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Thanks... sometimes I don't think casual or non-believers realize just how broad the scope of belief variants there are in Christianity. Now people can wiki/google and get some idea of that particular faith.

I had 7th-Day Adventists catch me at my door today..... they always ask me about my faith, and it never fails to leave them a bit disoriented. Almost all of their playbook seems to assume some other Christian sect or passive belief in the Bible. Questioning the book itself or having someone quote similar passages from Buddhist, Hindu, or other belief texts is not something they're usually trained for. But I'm nice and friendly and let them leave their interesting little pamphlets.
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
"Passive Christianity" tends to be the number one thing wrong with the faithful these days.
"Passive Christianity", are there really Christians with that faith?

In comparison, Muslims aren't considered what they are unless they practice. We really have to submit to God and his teachings.
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Old 2009-09-29, 22:38   Link #2192
monster
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
His condemning most of humanity to Hell in the first place isn't selling his benevolence to me, though.
That would be within his right. So even bothering to provide a way for those who believe to be reconciled with him is already an act of benevolence.
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And as for what happens in this life - we, as limited beings, must make compromises. Trade offs. That's why suffering now for a benefit later makes sense. That's why we have to decide the relative importance of things and make choices. God, though, isn't supposed to be limited. Therefore, our suffering is also something he decided just because he felt like it.
That depends on the suffering. God is not the source of all suffering, but he may permit them to test some and discipline others.
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Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Why doesn't God get rid of Satan?
He will eventually, but in God's own time and in his own way.
Quote:
The "rejection" wording has also always bothered me... I fail to see how I can "reject" something that I never accepted in the first place.
The simplest example of rejection is someone offer you something and you don't take it. So yes, you certainly can reject something you never accepted in the first place.

There is another example. You go to a restaurant that you've always gone to everyday since you can remember. And since you've always gone there and ordered the same thing, you never had to look at the menu to be able to choose another food (or maybe they don't even have the menu, or it's an out-of-the-menu/secret food, etc.). This is probably the type of "rejection" that most people would have a problem with. Since the alternative is never directly presented to them, they would automatically pick whatever they've known their entire lives. In doing so, they indirectly reject the alternative.
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Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
So wait-- is the Judeo-Christian God omnipotent or not? I've never been quite clear on that.
The Bible says he is omnipotent.
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Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
Anyway, how I interpret all this being relative is as such. God is omnipotent, but only outside of the points where freewill must intervene. Example: You are faced with a decision to go left or right down a path. God put you at that crossroads. He knows what will happen if you choose the right path, and he knows what will happen if you choose the left path. What he does not know is what path you will choose, for that is outside the realm of his omniscience, because it lies within the realm of the freewill of man.
I think we must separate knowing, controlling, the ability to control, and interacting.

To use your example:

- God puts you at the crossroad (controlling)
- knows the consequence of choosing either path (knowing)
- knows the path that you will choose (knowing)
- lets you make that choice (and the consequence of that choice) on your own anyway (ability to control, but not controlling)

And in some cases:
- God will give you a hint at which path to take or will tell you the consequence of either or both paths (interacting)
- or lets you make the choice but changes the consequence (controlling)
- or force you to pick the path of his choosing (controlling)

In all of that, neither God's omnipotence nor his omniscience is diminished by human free will.
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Old 2009-09-29, 23:10   Link #2193
MeoTwister5
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
"Passive Christianity", are there really Christians with that faith?

In comparison, Muslims aren't considered what they are unless they practice. We really have to submit to God and his teachings.
My point exactly. Passive Christians are those content enough with the "believing" aspect of their religion and forget the "doing" aspect, considering that Christianity is the synthesis of what you believe and what you do.
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Old 2009-09-30, 01:00   Link #2194
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
The reason is because when you think of Hell you think of eternal suffering, from my understanding it is the lack of God's prescence meaning you do not have the protection of God meaning satan can do anything he wants to you. So it is not God doing anything bad, you rejected him, he rejects you that is all there is to it.

@Vexx I'm pentecostal
The Satan he created, and let torture people. So, yeah, again, not sold on his benevolence.

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
That would be within his right. So even bothering to provide a way for those who believe to be reconciled with him is already an act of benevolence.
So, if a slave owner refrains from having his slave whipped on week-ends, he's benevolent, according to you?

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That depends on the suffering. God is not the source of all suffering, but he may permit them to test some and discipline others.
Test? That has no meaning for an omniscient being. Neither does discipline, what with his omnipotence and all.

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He will eventually, but in God's own time and in his own way.
Yeah, because He's got a use for Evil.

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The simplest example of rejection is someone offer you something and you don't take it. So yes, you certainly can reject something you never accepted in the first place.

There is another example. You go to a restaurant that you've always gone to everyday since you can remember. And since you've always gone there and ordered the same thing, you never had to look at the menu to be able to choose another food (or maybe they don't even have the menu, or it's an out-of-the-menu/secret food, etc.). This is probably the type of "rejection" that most people would have a problem with. Since the alternative is never directly presented to them, they would automatically pick whatever they've known their entire lives. In doing so, they indirectly reject the alternative.
In a restaurant, there is a menu, so we know what's served. Down there, we've got books written by dead men whom we have no reason to believe knew what they were talking about.
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Old 2009-09-30, 01:03   Link #2195
Raiga
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
The simplest example of rejection is someone offer you something and you don't take it. So yes, you certainly can reject something you never accepted in the first place.

There is another example. You go to a restaurant that you've always gone to everyday since you can remember. And since you've always gone there and ordered the same thing, you never had to look at the menu to be able to choose another food (or maybe they don't even have the menu, or it's an out-of-the-menu/secret food, etc.). This is probably the type of "rejection" that most people would have a problem with. Since the alternative is never directly presented to them, they would automatically pick whatever they've known their entire lives. In doing so, they indirectly reject the alternative.
If that is how you want to put it, okay, I reject the Judeo-Christian God. I also reject every god listed here, as do you, with the exception of one.

And I dunno about my life's philosophy being like a restaurant menu. I mean, that seems kinda arbitrary. And give me a reason to choose something else off the menu. Because this is the foundation of my worldview that we're talking about here, not a restaurant dish, so you'd better have something convincing. Couldn't you say the same about yourself? Are you not too rejecting everything else on the menu except your usual?

I suppose I don't like being told that I "reject" God because to me God was never a default. I don't believe God exists, and I can't reject something that (from my perspective) doesn't exist.
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Old 2009-09-30, 01:30   Link #2196
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
"Passive Christianity", are there really Christians with that faith?

In comparison, Muslims aren't considered what they are unless they practice. We really have to submit to God and his teachings.
I hate to ruin your day but there are many, many 'secular' Muslims who are relatively passive about their faith -- it depends on the country we speak of and the other traditions in place prior to the arrival of Islam, it depends on how they interpret and execute the teachings of Islam. A Muslim in Iran is a very different Muslim than one in Malaysia or Indonesia (though they do share common threads).

Christianity has been around a much longer period (and Judaism even longer)... societies may have "christian" history, underpinning, etc. but it doesn't mean that many people who consider themselves Christian actively think about it much. That goes for Europe, Canada, and even the US amongst other places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga
I suppose I don't like being told that I "reject" God because to me God was never a default. I don't believe God exists, and I can't reject something that (from my perspective) doesn't exist.
The game presupposes that everyone is using the same framework (that the Bible is some axiomatic source, that we agree there is a particular kind of monotheistic God that manages to be personal and yet universal, etc). So the questions are framed that way with those assumptions. The 7th-Day Adventist's who visit me - their entire script assumes that and breaks down when confronted with someone who isn't even in the same stadium.

I really don't want to screw with them -- if their odd little version of Christianity makes them happy and doesn't "scare the cattle" I'm fine. But the harder they press me, the more likely I'm going to have to point out the analysis that led me to where I'm at. And that's likely to scare or appall them. FYI, the Adventists aren't considered particularly mainstream within Christianity but if anyone is interested, they're easy enough to wiki/google.
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Old 2009-09-30, 01:34   Link #2197
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I hate to ruin your day but there are many, many 'secular' Muslims who are relatively passive about their faith -- it depends on the country we speak of and the other traditions in place prior to the arrival of Islam, it depends on how they interpret and execute the teachings of Islam. A Muslim in Iran is a very different Muslim than one in Malaysia or Indonesia (though they do share common threads).
I thought I placed it really clear already. For those who do not *submit*, a title revoke must be made. They are "Muslim" in name perhaps but not in truth---this is where the problem lies.

But I guess your right, It might differ depending on perception---though, I do *believe* that mine is "correct".

Quote:
Christianity has been around a much longer period (and Judaism even longer)... societies may have "christian" history, underpinning, etc. but it doesn't mean that many people who consider themselves Christian actively think about it much. That goes for Europe, Canada, and even the US amongst other places.
The lesser stricter discipline creates this "foggy" disappearance of faith which leads to atheism----not implying that atheism is negative. I just believe that religion creates the better society.
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Old 2009-09-30, 01:55   Link #2198
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
I thought I placed it really clear already. For those who do not *submit*, a title revoke must be made. They are "Muslim" in name perhaps but not in truth---this is where the problem lies.
Who's doing the revoking? On what authority?


Quote:
The lesser stricter discipline creates this "foggy" disappearance of faith which leads to atheism----not implying that atheism is negative. I just believe that religion creates the better society.
In other words, you're saying atheism is negative.
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Old 2009-09-30, 01:57   Link #2199
Quzor
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
To use your example:

- God puts you at the crossroad (controlling)
- knows the consequence of choosing either path (knowing)
- knows the path that you will choose (knowing)
- lets you make that choice (and the consequence of that choice) on your own anyway (ability to control, but not controlling)

And in some cases:
- God will give you a hint at which path to take or will tell you the consequence of either or both paths (interacting)
- or lets you make the choice but changes the consequence (controlling)
- or force you to pick the path of his choosing (controlling)

In all of that, neither God's omnipotence nor his omniscience is diminished by human free will.
For the moment, I'd like to discuss only the bolded portion. I'm not sure if I communicated poorly, if you misinterpreted what I said, or if this is something you interjected on your own. Regardless, I'm a bit... at odds... with this assertion. Lets assume, for the moment, that you are correct in your assertion that God knows which path you are going to choose. In this case, would it be necessary for him to even put you at the crossroads? If he is truly omniscient, and he knows each path you're going to take at every moment, is there reason for him to force you to make those decisions? And then, are you able to make a decision that goes against the decision God "knows" you are going to make?

For me, if the answer to the last question is "No", then we have crossed out of the realm of freewill, and into the realm of absolute control.

Freewill is defined as "the power asserted of moral beings of choosing within limitations or with respect to some matters without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law." My interpretation of this is that freewill is the ability for man to make a decision outside of the influence of the "divine" or, outside of Gods influence. If God knows the decision we are going to make, and we cannot make a decision outside of his knowledge, then we are not really making a decision at all. I equate it to someone asking me if I'd like a Coke or a Pepsi and, when I say Pepsi, they say "Well, we only have Coke." If the decision we're going to make is already known then, to me, we aren't making a decision anymore; it is being made for us.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
In other words, you're saying atheism is negative.
I didn't get that from his statement. I think it's more along the idea of atheism does not have a negative affect, but does not have as much of a positive affect as religion. As a numerical example: Atheism is 3, Religion is 8. They're still both positive, but Atheism is not as large a positive as Religion.
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Old 2009-09-30, 01:59   Link #2200
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Who's doing the revoking? On what authority?
For that matter, who's deciding who has "submitted"?
There's more than a few well-studied "wise men" in Islam who come to very different opinions on various subjects and on interpretations of the Qu'ran (and even attempt to wipe each other out over it and call each other heretics). If this were left to each individual and their own personal relationship with Allah - it'd be one thing, but there seems to be a lot of "judging" each other going on
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