AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-09-30, 02:01   Link #2201
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Who's doing the revoking? On what authority?
Its a belief based on opinion. So, I got nothing there.

Quote:
In other words, you're saying atheism is negative.
I'm sorry if it came out like that. Again, I'm considering it more of only my own opinion. (Exactly as Quzor stated) Though we're not really sure if Religion is the 3 or the 8 or Atheism is...stating the fact that I'm going to have to rely on mere beliefs for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
For that matter, who's deciding who has "submitted"?
There's more than a few well-studied "wise men" in Islam who come to very different opinions on various subjects and on interpretations of the Koran (and even attempt to wipe each other out over it and call each other heretics). If this were left to each individual and their own personal relationship with Allah - it'd be one thing, but there seems to be a lot of "judging" each other going on
Like I've said, you're right, there is great subjectivity in this.

Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-30 at 02:33.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 02:28   Link #2202
Throne Invader
Protecting the Throne
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 22
Send a message via Skype™ to Throne Invader
Hi everyone. I just need confirmation about this. Are Catholics considered or classified under Christians also or are they viewed as a separate group? Groups such as baptists, pentecostals, methodists, evangelicans I know are under the Christian name. I'm just not sure about Catholic. It'd be nice if a Catholic could answer...
__________________


It's time to start letting her make her own decisions. - Mom's dermatologist~
Throne Invader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 02:50   Link #2203
Gangsta Spanksta
Fanfic Writer
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tejas
Send a message via AIM to Gangsta Spanksta Send a message via Yahoo to Gangsta Spanksta
Well being Hispanic, I am a Catholic. But to simply answer your question, avoiding the possible politics, here is what Wikipedia says:

"The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church,[note 1] is the world's largest Christian church. With more than a billion members, over half of all Christians[note 2] and more than one-sixth of the world's population,"
Gangsta Spanksta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 03:03   Link #2204
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Christianity wasn't founded by Martin Luther.

Seriously, how far does this rampant anti-Catholicism go where people grow up unsure if Catholics are Christian. At least their humanity isn't in question ... yet. *concerned*
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 03:12   Link #2205
Cipher
.....
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Christianity wasn't founded by Martin Luther.

Seriously, how far does this rampant anti-Catholicism go where people grow up unsure if Catholics are Christian. At least their humanity isn't in question ... yet. *concerned*
A point for *discipline*.
Cipher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 03:49   Link #2206
Throne Invader
Protecting the Throne
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 22
Send a message via Skype™ to Throne Invader
Thanks for the quick answers everyone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Christianity wasn't founded by Martin Luther.

Seriously, how far does this rampant anti-Catholicism go where people grow up unsure if Catholics are Christian. At least their humanity isn't in question ... yet. *concerned*
Sorry if my question seemed to offend you. I think I'm pretty sane thank you I guess it really depends on what you use you to define "Christian." I'm not saying you're wrong nor am I saying that the people/sources that made me ponder were wrong. They seemed to explain their side pretty well.
__________________


It's time to start letting her make her own decisions. - Mom's dermatologist~
Throne Invader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 04:10   Link #2207
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by FragrantFlora View Post
Sorry if my question seemed to offend you.
You didn't offend me. After all, you asked at least. I'm more concerned about your peers and teachers.
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 04:23   Link #2208
FateAnomaly
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
I think the thing is catholics tends to say they are Catholics while the other factions simply says they are christians. Maybe thats how the confusion comes from.
FateAnomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 04:27   Link #2209
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by FragrantFlora View Post
Thanks for the quick answers everyone



Sorry if my question seemed to offend you. I think I'm pretty sane thank you I guess it really depends on what you use you to define "Christian." I'm not saying you're wrong nor am I saying that the people/sources that made me ponder were wrong. They seemed to explain their side pretty well.
Its not an "offending" thing... its a bit of a jaw-dropper when some assert Catholics are not part of the Christian faith. Catholicism is the OLDEST form of organized Christianity that exists as it was originally instituted when Peter the Apostle supposedly took the position as the "first bishop" (in the First Century AD). The word "Catholic" is first documented around the year 110 or so though the first two hundred years are somewhat fragmentary and apocryphal records. The Roman Empire took the Christian Catholic faith as its religion around the year 313AD and then proceeded to drive it across the world even after the Empire itself broke up into a dozen little kingdoms.

Now why the confusion on Christianity? Protestants sometimes argue that the Catholic faith spiraled away from the "original intent of Christianity" both from state corruption and because the faith tended to take on the cultural artifacts (pagan beliefs) of conquered nations. Evangelicals are particularly intense about Catholicism, sometimes even claiming the Catholic Church is the Beast or anti-Christ, setting up false gods in the form of the saints or even the way they venerate Mary as a "goddess" (often she ascends to more importance than Christ in some parts of the world). So I can see why there might be some confusion -- but Catholicism is what "Protestantism" (1521AD) derived from (and in Protestantism it fractured into Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, and dozens of other splintering sects). They're all "Christian" in the sense that their central tenet is that Jesus Christ was the son of God, he died for humanity's sins to create a new pact with God. After that, they all start disagreeing on the details.

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-09-30 at 04:43. Reason: I spent a really long time studying my birth religion before I confirmed it made sense to walk away.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 04:30   Link #2210
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 29
Christianity is a broad term referring to groups identifying Jesus Christ as saviour and son of God. Catholicism (Roman Catholicism to be precise) is the grouping for those in Chrisitianity anciently based in Rome and seeing the Pope as the human head of the Church in The Vatican/Rome.
MeoTwister5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 05:07   Link #2211
Throne Invader
Protecting the Throne
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 22
Send a message via Skype™ to Throne Invader
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Christianity is a broad term referring to groups identifying Jesus Christ as saviour and son of God. Catholicism (Roman Catholicism to be precise) is the grouping for those in Chrisitianity anciently based in Rome and seeing the Pope as the human head of the Church in The Vatican/Rome.
That's it!!! One of the reasons why some of the Protestants I know refuse to acknowledge Catholics as Christians. It's all due to recognizing the Pope as the head of the institution kind of like saying that the Pope is Jesus Christ on Earth. And then there's the worshipping Mary thing.
__________________


It's time to start letting her make her own decisions. - Mom's dermatologist~
Throne Invader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 05:10   Link #2212
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 29
Catholics aren't supposed to worship Mary, the Saints and the like. Worship is reserved only to God, except people take it to the extremes.
MeoTwister5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 05:14   Link #2213
Throne Invader
Protecting the Throne
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 22
Send a message via Skype™ to Throne Invader
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Catholics aren't supposed to worship Mary, the Saints and the like. Worship is reserved only to God, except people take it to the extremes.

So what do you Catholics call it when you offer prayers to Mary or to the Saints, the commonly used Hail Mary prayer in particular?
__________________


It's time to start letting her make her own decisions. - Mom's dermatologist~
Throne Invader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 05:21   Link #2214
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The Satan he created, and let torture people. So, yeah, again, not sold on his benevolence.


So, if a slave owner refrains from having his slave whipped on week-ends, he's benevolent, according to you?
First, no human should enslave another these days. However, if two people should happen to be in a socially accepted master-slave relationship, then yes, the master would be benevolent for not exercising his socially given right to cause harm to his perceived property.
Quote:
Test? That has no meaning for an omniscient being. Neither does discipline, what with his omnipotence and all.
The test and discipline is not for God himself, but for the person being tested or disciplined. It's like a blacksmith might put a piece of metal through fire and hammer it until it meets his desire. (That might not be entirely a correct illustration given my near total ignorance of what happens in a smith, but hopefully you get what I mean.)
Quote:
Yeah, because He's got a use for Evil.
Yeah, because he can. God and the Devil was never equal in the first place.
Quote:
In a restaurant, there is a menu, so we know what's served. Down there, we've got books written by dead men whom we have no reason to believe knew what they were talking about.
And that would be your reasoning to reject, not that you didn't reject it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
If that is how you want to put it, okay, I reject the Judeo-Christian God. I also reject every god listed here, as do you, with the exception of one.
That would be correct.
Quote:
And I dunno about my life's philosophy being like a restaurant menu. I mean, that seems kinda arbitrary. And give me a reason to choose something else off the menu. Because this is the foundation of my worldview that we're talking about here, not a restaurant dish, so you'd better have something convincing. Couldn't you say the same about yourself? Are you not too rejecting everything else on the menu except your usual?
Obviously I'm simplifying the comparison, it was just to show that you can reject something directly or indirectly without accepting any of it in the first place. And yes, it also applies to me (and everyone else). If I accept that Jesus Christ is the only way for my salvation, then I would reject any teaching that says otherwise.
Quote:
I suppose I don't like being told that I "reject" God because to me God was never a default. I don't believe God exists, and I can't reject something that (from my perspective) doesn't exist.
It was never about what's the default. But you do reject something about God, namely his existence. And that is a major part of who (,at least, the biblical) God is all about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
For the moment, I'd like to discuss only the bolded portion. I'm not sure if I communicated poorly, if you misinterpreted what I said, or if this is something you interjected on your own. Regardless, I'm a bit... at odds... with this assertion. Lets assume, for the moment, that you are correct in your assertion that God knows which path you are going to choose. In this case, would it be necessary for him to even put you at the crossroads?
With God, it's more about what he wills to do rather than what's necessary. So, for whatever reason, God has chosen to put you in that crossroads. It's just a setup for our illustration.
Quote:
If he is truly omniscient, and he knows each path you're going to take at every moment, is there reason for him to force you to make those decisions?
First, he might not force you to make that decision at all. But if he did, then it would be because he has a plan for you along one of those paths.
Quote:
And then, are you able to make a decision that goes against the decision God "knows" you are going to make?
God knowing doesn't necessarily mean he's making that decision for you. It's a product of his omniscience, not your lack of free will.
Quote:
For me, if the answer to the last question is "No", then we have crossed out of the realm of freewill, and into the realm of absolute control.

Freewill is defined as "the power asserted of moral beings of choosing within limitations or with respect to some matters without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law." My interpretation of this is that freewill is the ability for man to make a decision outside of the influence of the "divine" or, outside of Gods influence. If God knows the decision we are going to make, and we cannot make a decision outside of his knowledge, then we are not really making a decision at all. I equate it to someone asking me if I'd like a Coke or a Pepsi and, when I say Pepsi, they say "Well, we only have Coke." If the decision we're going to make is already known then, to me, we aren't making a decision anymore; it is being made for us.
Let's take three examples from the Bible:

1. God has claimed that he hardened the heart of the Pharaoh to not let the Israelites leave until after the 10 plagues and then to chase after them. So God is saying he has forced the Pharaoh's hand, ignoring any will the Pharaoh might have had on his own.

2. God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but just as Abraham was about to do it, God stops Abraham. Here, God has allowed Abraham to make his own choice. But since God is omniscient, he would've known Abraham's choice beforehand, so it's possible that God gave that command knowing Abraham would remain faithful and there would be no need for a father to sacrifice his son. Instead, God has given believers this story of faith.

3. God ordered Jonah to go to Nineveh, knowing Jonah did not want to. God could've easily made Jonah go there directly. But God allowed Jonah to make his own choice and run away. This time God really does plan for Jonah to go to Nineveh, but God still didn't just automatically override Jonah's will. Instead, God showed his displeasure and Jonah finally obeyed God. Yet, even after that, Jonah still was able to show his displeasure to God.

The first example clearly showed that God can directly control man's will. The second example showed human does have free will, but God knows about each individual and could also make use of man's will. And the third also shows human having free will but God can influence human to submit to his will as well.

So, if by free will, you mean total absolute freedom, that would conflict with the idea of an omnipotent God. God has full control over his creation, which includes humans. But God does not always exercise full control, and does give humans a will of their own.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 05:35   Link #2215
Gangsta Spanksta
Fanfic Writer
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tejas
Send a message via AIM to Gangsta Spanksta Send a message via Yahoo to Gangsta Spanksta
Quote:
Originally Posted by FragrantFlora View Post
That's it!!! One of the reasons why some of the Protestants I know refuse to acknowledge Catholics as Christians. It's all due to recognizing the Pope as the head of the institution kind of like saying that the Pope is Jesus Christ on Earth. And then there's the worshipping Mary thing.
Exactly how is it like saying the pope is Jesus Christ? Also being Catholic, I haven't met any Catholics who worship Mary, though Catholics do pray to her as the mother of Jesus. I never seen someone Catholic actually pray to a saint. But honestly, many of those things seem like a bit of FUD to Catholics spread by people from other denomination, a sort of here is what is wrong with the Catholic Church, a possible self justification. The Catholic denomination has its problems, much bigger problems than having the Pope as the head of their church, the misconception of who they worship. Like I said, I think those things you point out there are mostly FUD.
Gangsta Spanksta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 05:38   Link #2216
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by FragrantFlora View Post
So what do you Catholics call it when you offer prayers to Mary or to the Saints, the commonly used Hail Mary prayer in particular?
Intercession. You don't pray to Mary or the Saints as worship; you pray for guidance and a sort of intermediary between the person and God. The Hail Mary doesn't lift Mary up to the level of God but rather extolling the virtues she carried as an example worthy of imitation. As I said, it's really wrong for Catholics to lift her up to the level of God. The level of God is for God alone, and godly worship is reserved for Him.
MeoTwister5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 05:40   Link #2217
Gangsta Spanksta
Fanfic Writer
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tejas
Send a message via AIM to Gangsta Spanksta Send a message via Yahoo to Gangsta Spanksta
Quote:
Originally Posted by FragrantFlora View Post
So what do you Catholics call it when you offer prayers to Mary or to the Saints, the commonly used Hail Mary prayer in particular?
They call it praying to Mary, the mother of Jesus. They can and do pray to Jesus himself, but the belief is there that you can pray to Mary who Jesus, God, obviously love and listen to. It's like sort of indirectly praying to God, asking Mary to get a good word in for you to the big guy. But the Catholic Church would consider worshiping Mary a sacrilege. There is a difference between prayer and worship.
Gangsta Spanksta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 06:32   Link #2218
Throne Invader
Protecting the Throne
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 22
Send a message via Skype™ to Throne Invader
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Intercession. You don't pray to Mary or the Saints as worship; you pray for guidance and a sort of intermediary between the person and God. The Hail Mary doesn't lift Mary up to the level of God but rather extolling the virtues she carried as an example worthy of imitation.
Many Protestants would argue why there's a need to pray to Mary or Saints for intercession. They would believe that what is required to be saved is to have a direct relationship with God himself. Several Protestant pastors who have spoken at sermons during church and fellowships have said that when you have a need for messengers/counselors/mediators, it kind of gives off the idea that God is a stuck up, too good for anyone King. It's actually Mary and the Saints, especially Mary(being a mother) who are the compassionate, sweet, kind ones who are trying to soften God's heart in giving mercy to His people. This would mean that Mary and the Saints would have roles in God's decisions and that God isn't so kind after all. I don't now if this is true for all Catholics but I study in a Catholic university and this is what's been taught that Mary is somehow God's counselor/mediator.

Another issue I guess would be the statues especially the one with the Virgin Mary carrying a baby Jesus. Some hardcore Protestants I know and whose books I have read have claimed that Catholicism was just the result of a facelift of the first pagan practices. One of the first ever during the time of Noah's sons. The particular religion then had a Queen Semiramis who made her people see her and her son as gods. From this, as time went about, other religions came about but only with different names. I was amused as to how there's a statue of Isis carrying her baby Horus and how there's a Mary carrying her baby Jesus. I'm not particularly in full agreement with the claims but I did think that there did seem to be a bit of truth in this and what a coincidence this is if it ever was.

I'm wondering what other Catholics think about this.
__________________


It's time to start letting her make her own decisions. - Mom's dermatologist~
Throne Invader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 11:44   Link #2219
Gangsta Spanksta
Fanfic Writer
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tejas
Send a message via AIM to Gangsta Spanksta Send a message via Yahoo to Gangsta Spanksta
Quote:
Originally Posted by FragrantFlora View Post
Many Protestants would argue why there's a need to pray to Mary or Saints for intercession. They would believe that what is required to be saved is to have a direct relationship with God himself. Several Protestant pastors who have spoken at sermons during church and fellowships have said that when you have a need for messengers/counselors/mediators, it kind of gives off the idea that God is a stuck up, too good for anyone King. It's actually Mary and the Saints, especially Mary(being a mother) who are the compassionate, sweet, kind ones who are trying to soften God's heart in giving mercy to His people. This would mean that Mary and the Saints would have roles in God's decisions and that God isn't so kind after all. I don't now if this is true for all Catholics but I study in a Catholic university and this is what's been taught that Mary is somehow God's counselor/mediator.
See that right there is one of the things I think is wrong with Many Protestant denominations. That is that they spend way too much time trying to say what is wrong with the Catholic denomination, as if it is part of their religion study. Instead of spending time on Unity with fellow christian, it seems that this is pointing out why we should be seperate, a bit of self justification, which makes me wonder why the self justification is needed. The Catholic Church does have its problems, big problems, but they are none of these things you point at, and much of what you say others have said seems to stem from ignorance rather than something they know about. The funny thing is that every Catholic church that I've participated in, and I don't really go that much anymore since I'm not very religious, has always taught a more open minded view that it really doesn't matter what christian denomination someone is in and that you Protestants are just as good people as any Catholic and that both have equal chance of going to heaven. They even taught In my time that non christians, such as Buddhists go to haven. So why do some Protestant have to spend so much energy trying to point out whats wrong with the Catholic Church, when the denomination is much reformed from the days that the Protestants, most denominations who were once part of the Catholic Church, split off because they were reformists?

But anyway, it is right that that praying to God is probably just effective as praying to Mary. I don't think that many people pray to saints. But ironically enough, some of the Criticism you have mentioned of praying to Mary as opposed to God also exist within the Trinity itself, as in Praying to Jesus as opposed to God, that the Jesus part of the Trinity, though the same god, is somehow more merciful than the Father part, and then you also have people praying to the Holy spirit. And the whole criticism seems a bit flawed then, because all the sudden singing songs like, "yes, Jesus loves me," seem wrong and can be questioned as to why it is not "Yes, God loves me," But honestly, there is something wrong with spending time thinking about how someone worships God or worships whatever they worship, when they are peacful and don't bother anyone with their religious views. People spending time talking about what is wrong with another religion seem like they are on High horses, especially when that religion does not effect them in any way, especially when that religion holds no ill will against them. The Catholic Church is much reformed from the time the Protestants felt that they had to split

Quote:
Another issue I guess would be the statues especially the one with the Virgin Mary carrying a baby Jesus. Some hardcore Protestants I know and whose books I have read have claimed that Catholicism was just the result of a facelift of the first pagan practices. One of the first ever during the time of Noah's sons. The particular religion then had a Queen Semiramis who made her people see her and her son as gods. From this, as time went about, other religions came about but only with different names. I was amused as to how there's a statue of Isis carrying her baby Horus and how there's a Mary carrying her baby Jesus. I'm not particularly in full agreement with the claims but I did think that there did seem to be a bit of truth in this and what a coincidence this is if it ever was.

I'm wondering what other Catholics think about this.
A statue of a woman carrying a child is evidence of paganism? The evidence seems kind of weak, IMO. Now the Catholic church did convert a lot of Pegan places of worship into their own and took on some Pegan traditions to get the people in Europe to convert. But then, if that wasn't the case, then Christianity might not have spread the way it did across Europe, and there probably would be a lot less Chrisitans in the world, Catholic and Protestants.
Gangsta Spanksta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-30, 14:30   Link #2220
Quzor
It's the year 3030...
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spaceport Colony Sicilia
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to Quzor
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert View Post
1. God has claimed that he hardened the heart of the Pharaoh to not let the Israelites leave until after the 10 plagues and then to chase after them. So God is saying he has forced the Pharaoh's hand, ignoring any will the Pharaoh might have had on his own.

2. God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but just as Abraham was about to do it, God stops Abraham. Here, God has allowed Abraham to make his own choice. But since God is omniscient, he would've known Abraham's choice beforehand, so it's possible that God gave that command knowing Abraham would remain faithful and there would be no need for a father to sacrifice his son. Instead, God has given believers this story of faith.

3. God ordered Jonah to go to Nineveh, knowing Jonah did not want to. God could've easily made Jonah go there directly. But God allowed Jonah to make his own choice and run away. This time God really does plan for Jonah to go to Nineveh, but God still didn't just automatically override Jonah's will. Instead, God showed his displeasure and Jonah finally obeyed God. Yet, even after that, Jonah still was able to show his displeasure to God.

The first example clearly showed that God can directly control man's will. The second example showed human does have free will, but God knows about each individual and could also make use of man's will. And the third also shows human having free will but God can influence human to submit to his will as well.

So, if by free will, you mean total absolute freedom, that would conflict with the idea of an omnipotent God. God has full control over his creation, which includes humans. But God does not always exercise full control, and does give humans a will of their own.
All three of these examples cause me to take pause. Allow me to try and explain why.

1.) I would say this is forcing the Pharaoh's hand, only because he would be losing that which makes him the Pharaoh. He would have wanted to keep his servants and slaves close at hand; they are his royal subjects. Just as a king or emperor may take action against any who seek to go against the way of the crown, so does the Pharaoh seek retribution against the Israelites for trying to leave. The Pharaoh's hand is indeed forced here, insofar as freewill is concerned, because God has offered him no choice as to the resolution of this particular matter.

2.) You say that God has allowed Abraham to make his own choice, but I do not see that present in this example. God tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, and Abraham attempts to do it. He would have followed through with it, if not for the interjection of God. Essentially, God tells Abraham to do something, then stops Abraham from doing it. There is no point within that time frame that Abraham exercised his own freewill. Had he been told to sacrifice his son, and said "No," or not attempted to do it, then we would be talking about freewill.

3.) Ahh, but you're forgetting the final parts of that story. Jonah begins his journey, then decided against it and turns his boat around; he defies God. And what does he get for it? He gets to spend 3 days in the belly of a great fish (not a whale), after which he is spat back upon the shore to begin his journey all over again. And, the second time, he completes the journey successfully. Here, we see someone trying to exercise freewill over God, and God disciplining them for doing so. Had Jonah been allowed to say "No," as he attempted to do, without retribution from God, then I would say that he was exercising his freewill.

Again, the definition of freewill is the ability to choose apart from all outside influences. This includes divine influence. In all three examples, God takes a direct course of action to insure that his will is carried out, at the expense of the freewill of man. I'm not arguing that he couldn't control us implicitly at any given moment, I'm suggesting that he chooses not to. If his intention was to give us freewill so that we could make our own decisions, he'd have been wasting his time if he was just going to make those decisions for us in the end. He wants us to choose for ourselves, because he wants us to learn what the proper/correct choices are on our own.

"Trust the Lord your God with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your path." - Proverbs 3:5-6

This is where, I think, God wants our freewill to lead us. He wants us to use our freewill to come to him, so that he may relieve us of the burden of choosing, by shining a light on the path he would desire us to take. This still leaves open, room for freewill. We have used our freewill to turn to God, and to ask for guidance. However, God did not force us to make that decision, and he will not force us to maintain it.
__________________
http://www.tg-media.net/the_chaos/QuzorSig488.jpg
Quzor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
not a debate, philosophy, religion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.