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Old 2009-09-29, 11:12   Link #5681
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Treize's plan wasn't very clear, at least not that I remember. He deposed Relena because Zechs had created the perfect stage for him to play on. Treize didn't go to battle expecting to die, he wanted to settle the war by dueling Zechs, but after his duel was denied he decided to play along and see things through to the end. He never intended to die in battle to free the world like Lelouch.

He chose to die because whatever the outcome that would probably be the last great battle. It was basically the perfect stage for him to go down, at the hands of someone worthy like Wufei. Treize loved war, in a romantic sort of way much like Cornelia. He never set out to end conflicts.
Someone actually understood Treize's plan? Wow.

The moment when he jumped to Wufei's saber ranked as number 2 in my WTF Gundam Moments.

Anyway, OOT, yeah, Zero Requiem should be clearer...
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Old 2009-09-29, 13:52   Link #5682
azul120
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
its not about giving up
its about seeing the flaws
its about seeing what they DID, rather then what they SHOULD have done

the problem was that they COULD have made lelouch's plan more heroic by having him focus on stopping shnizel
by having him make it clear that he is becoming a monster, because normal people cant fight against something like the damocles
that a normal commander who cares about his soldiers could never send them against something that could wipe them out by the thousands with every shot, and there for the only one who can fight it is someone who views his soldiers as disposable ants
that a ruler who cares about his people would be forced to surrender the second the damocels shows up on his front door, and so the only leader able to oppose it, is someone who could not care less if his entire country turns to dust
that he HAS to attack the UFN in order to make shnizel want to side with them, and thus spare them from the flejias
that the end result of having him conquer the world by taking over the damocles was a RESULT of winning the battle, rather then an INTENTION all along
and that having suzaku kill him was done, not out of some bullshit claim that he would earse the worlds hate, but out of a belief that he (monster that he has become) has no place in this world anymore
he doesnt try to CHANGE the world with some bullshit plot, but he SAVES it from a greater evil, and then leaves it in the hands of its people
Agreed, except that in your example, I think it would make sense for him to try claiming that beating Schneizel would have been the end of it, but no one would believe him anymore, so he would act the part of dictator during ZR and have Suzaku as Zero kill him. I already mentioned this a little earlier.
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Old 2009-09-30, 12:31   Link #5683
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Agreed, except that in your example, I think it would make sense for him to try claiming that beating Schneizel would have been the end of it, but no one would believe him anymore, so he would act the part of dictator during ZR and have Suzaku as Zero kill him. I already mentioned this a little earlier.
I'm not too sure about this. Lelouch seems like the type who wouldn't try to make excuses for his actions. My interpretation of why he didn't tell Suzaku the truth about using Geass on Euphemia in Stage 25 and Turn 17, was that by his ego-logic, if he told the truth, then Suzaku might forgive him, and he didn't want to be forgiven for what he did to Euphemia, as that would make it something that COULD be forgiven. It's egotistical and shortsighted, but avoids making him a complete prick. Thus, Lelouch wouldn't try to justify his actions to the world, as he would fear that if they forgave him, then all the horrible things he did had a measure of good in them, since the were necessary. If his actions are justified, then there is a measure of justice in them, and he doesn't want to accept that.

Lelouch embraces the use of necessary evil, but he puts emphasis on the knowledge that it is still very much evil...at least until the last arc.
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Old 2009-09-30, 12:33   Link #5684
bladeofdarkness
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in the last act, its mostly un-necessary evil
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Old 2009-09-30, 12:36   Link #5685
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
in the last act, its mostly un-necessary evil
"Mostly?"

...

...

Who are you and what have you done with blade?
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Old 2009-09-30, 12:42   Link #5686
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
"Mostly?"

...

...

Who are you and what have you done with blade?

i am Lrrr
ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8

as for the mostly
there WAS the matter of shnizel that needed dealing with
an in THAT part, some evil was necessary
its the rest that bothers me
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Old 2009-09-30, 13:23   Link #5687
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
as for the mostly
there WAS the matter of shnizel that needed dealing with
an in THAT part, some evil was necessary
its the rest that bothers me
1. Grab Nina
2. Make more FLEIJA
3. Profit.

Damocles would need some considerably menacing upgrades before anyone facing it would be justified in doing what Lelouch did.

I have actually been thinking over some things that could be done to make Damocles a more self-contained powerhouse.

1. More points on the fortress that can fire FLEIJA that do not have a long reload time.
2. A guided means of firing the FLEIJA, namely advanced missles that could breach most conventional missle defense systems.
3. The shield itself should be able to use the Albion's feather shot.
4. An advanced long range Gefjun based device to neutralize any hostile sakuradite powered craft or weapon that approaches it, thus making the copy-FLEIJA-and-shoot-Schneizel-down-strategy useless.
5. More conventional weapons on the fortress.
6. An elite force of KMF pilots inside.
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Old 2009-09-30, 13:38   Link #5688
bladeofdarkness
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the problem lies with the shield system
as long as its up you cant fire anything out of it
so conventional weapons arent powerful enough to justify dropping the shields for

the blaze luminus shard launcher is a good idea though, i just wonder if its actually a practical option for something that big

as for the aces, assuming that the whole point of the damocles is that no one would dare try to attack it, whats the point of having your own soldiers out fighting (they are in the way of your flejia
as for internal defense, its still contingent on the idea that someone would actually get past the shield
which was not likely a consideration during its design

as for the evil done during that arc, i agree with the three step program you mentioned
using a flejia to destroy it is much more effective way to end it rather then first dragging the entire world into a war for no reason
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Old 2009-09-30, 14:02   Link #5689
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the problem lies with the shield system
as long as its up you cant fire anything out of it
so conventional weapons arent powerful enough to justify dropping the shields for
I am going on the idea of Schneizel being Crazy Prepared since he was supposed to be a genius.

When an enemy force is still at fairly long range they could be used to conserve FLEIJA, or in the event the enemy was using a device that could neutralize sakuradite technology themselves. Beyond that, they would be a defensive measure in case something got through the shield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the blaze luminus shard launcher is a good idea though, i just wonder if its actually a practical option for something that big
While it would have long range offensive capabilities, I was thinking more for short to medium range usage to keep enemies from geting close enough to bombard it with things like kinetic shells and beam weapons, or trying to make a kamikaze with their own FLEIJA, though the Gefjun-Wave idea would also make this difficult as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
as for the aces, assuming that the whole point of the damocles is that no one would dare try to attack it, whats the point of having your own soldiers out fighting (they are in the way of your flejia
as for internal defense, its still contingent on the idea that someone would actually get past the shield
which was not likely a consideration during its design
The ace pilots would only be deployed within the shield or fortress like where Gino was, rather than among the enemies outside the shield. Again, I'm going on the Crazy Prepared idea, and having multiple waves of defenses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
as for the evil done during that arc, i agree with the three step program you mentioned
using a flejia to destroy it is much more effective way to end it rather then first dragging the entire world into a war for no reason
And with the Gefjun wave idea, this would be a much much more difficult srtategy to pull off. In any case, not all the ideas would have to be used. Just a few to make the Damocles' ability to defend itself and get the FLEIJA to actually reach their targets more probable.
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Old 2009-09-30, 14:20   Link #5690
bladeofdarkness
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i think that he didnt really think there would be any way for anyone else to get a flejia
he IS the only one who makes them

and lelouch in general could have solved everything by simply launching a sneak attack against shnizel in cambodia while the damocles was not yet active
the albion would be able to zoom past any defense they have in place and destroy either the shield generators or float units before it has a chance to take off
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Old 2009-09-30, 14:35   Link #5691
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i think that he didnt really think there would be any way for anyone else to get a flejia
he IS the only one who makes them
He may have been the one to supply the resources, but Nina was the one who made them and Lelouch had a mind control power.

In any case, there would always be the risk that the technology could be rediscovered by others, even if they didn't have access to Nina.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and lelouch in general could have solved everything by simply launching a sneak attack against shnizel in cambodia while the damocles was not yet active
the albion would be able to zoom past any defense they have in place and destroy either the shield generators or float units before it has a chance to take off
Or before even that, he could sneak onboard the Avalon after thwarting Ragnarok and Geass Schneizel and even Bismarck to serve him. Then Lelouch just lets Schneizel go back to work finishing HIS doom fortress for him.
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Old 2009-09-30, 14:36   Link #5692
bladeofdarkness
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what would a "good" lelouch need a doom fortress for ?
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Old 2009-09-30, 14:40   Link #5693
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what would a "good" lelouch need a doom fortress for ?
A summer home.

Diethard could interview him and get a tour of the Damocles for "Hi-TV Cribs."

Last edited by Betteroffer; 2009-09-30 at 14:52.
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Old 2009-10-01, 04:08   Link #5694
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A summer home.

Diethard could interview him and get a tour of the Damocles for "Hi-TV Cribs."
Welcome to my crib, yo, let's check it out.

On the living room, you know we got the standard issue 200 inch PLASMA TV, you know how we DO!!! I gotta look over the world and shit, you know what I'm talking about? Cause if some bitches gonna go up on me and rebel and shit, I gotta FLEIJA their ass, you know what I'm saying?? Yea, keep it pimpin yo.

Continue on your own.
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Old 2009-10-02, 00:43   Link #5695
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Hi! I recently finished Code Geass, and am impressed with it more than Death Note. Lelouch is flawed. Yes, he did kill many, but it was also a part of his vulnerability. Lelouch is thus realistic, unlike Superman, or such, who just seems to come and save the day, look good, and is almost invulnerable. Lelouch has weaknesses. Unlike Kallen, or Suzaku, he is physically weak. This is a certain aspect many can relate to.

So, is he a hero? Yes and no. Lelouch is a hero, in that he was consistent in his efforts. He did improve things for many. He did rebel against Britannia, and his father. He did stand against Social Darwinism. But this all came at many costs. Cost of lives, lies, deception, and friendship. Lelouch who may have possibly been a sociopath towards strangers changed little by little. Nunally changed him by motivating him, Shirley changed him by showing trust; Rolo changed him by showing loyalty towards a companion, etc. He learned his lessons, even if they were a bit late. Lelouch could not have accomplished a lot, if he cared about enemy knightframe pilotís lives, and focusing on the individualís in the war. His weakness was not his evil deeds, but his good ones. He could have killed off achieved his goals much faster, had he not been hesitant to kill his loved ones. Unlike Light, Lelouch had that barrier, and so could not succeed at all his goals. He did learn valuable lessons, which have shaped him. Lelouch was on the verge of giving up certain times, and being caught, but it was his closed ones that helped him. In the end, he did destroy his father, and became the emperor, but he also became a tyrant. Kind of like the real world, where a good person becomes a leader, but then slowly gets corrupted. Instead he chose to be true to himself and make the situation black and white instead of living in the shades of gray, where people picked sides, and waged wars. He made himself evil (to the world), to make Zero the messiah. This was a simple action, which everyone can understand. He may have killed many, but in the end, he made the possibly of a better future for everyone, which cost him his life.

Lelouch could have lived as a really intelligent emperor, and try to improve his reputation, but there would always be someone who disagreed. To eliminate that possibility, he let Suzaku take over, and both friends paid dearly. One lost his respect, and the other lost his identity, for the world. This is what makes it more meaningful, than Death Note.
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Old 2009-10-02, 04:09   Link #5696
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Hi! I recently finished Code Geass, and am impressed with it more than Death Note. Lelouch is flawed. Yes, he did kill many, but it was also a part of his vulnerability. Lelouch is thus realistic, unlike Superman, or such, who just seems to come and save the day, look good, and is almost invulnerable. Lelouch has weaknesses. Unlike Kallen, or Suzaku, he is physically weak. This is a certain aspect many can relate to.

So, is he a hero? Yes and no. Lelouch is a hero, in that he was consistent in his efforts. He did improve things for many. He did rebel against Britannia, and his father. He did stand against Social Darwinism. But this all came at many costs. Cost of lives, lies, deception, and friendship. Lelouch who may have possibly been a sociopath towards strangers changed little by little. Nunally changed him by motivating him, Shirley changed him by showing trust; Rolo changed him by showing loyalty towards a companion, etc. He learned his lessons, even if they were a bit late. Lelouch could not have accomplished a lot, if he cared about enemy knightframe pilotís lives, and focusing on the individualís in the war. His weakness was not his evil deeds, but his good ones. He could have killed off achieved his goals much faster, had he not been hesitant to kill his loved ones. Unlike Light, Lelouch had that barrier, and so could not succeed at all his goals. He did learn valuable lessons, which have shaped him. Lelouch was on the verge of giving up certain times, and being caught, but it was his closed ones that helped him. In the end, he did destroy his father, and became the emperor, but he also became a tyrant. Kind of like the real world, where a good person becomes a leader, but then slowly gets corrupted. Instead he chose to be true to himself and make the situation black and white instead of living in the shades of gray, where people picked sides, and waged wars. He made himself evil (to the world), to make Zero the messiah. This was a simple action, which everyone can understand. He may have killed many, but in the end, he made the possibly of a better future for everyone, which cost him his life.

Lelouch could have lived as a really intelligent emperor, and try to improve his reputation, but there would always be someone who disagreed. To eliminate that possibility, he let Suzaku take over, and both friends paid dearly. One lost his respect, and the other lost his identity, for the world. This is what makes it more meaningful, than Death Note.
Welcome to the board.

Nice analysis of Lulu there. Pretty much accurate.
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Old 2009-10-02, 10:15   Link #5697
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Originally Posted by HollowScar
So, is he a hero? Yes and no.
Affirmative.
Like Paladin said, nice analysis.

I like to proclaim him as God sometimes, because like you said, he can make himself a saint, he can turn evil. But we'll leave that at an in my personal opinion level.
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Old 2009-10-02, 10:20   Link #5698
bladeofdarkness
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i never did get how that makes him god in your eyes
anyone could choose to act as a prick or a saint
there is nothing special about lelouch's ability to act this way

most people however would stick to one option rather then the other out of their personal beliefs
lelouch being able to switch in between as he likes doesnt so much make him special as it makes him inconsistent
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Old 2009-10-02, 10:26   Link #5699
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness
i never did get how that makes him god in your eyes
Oh. Ok.
I don't know why exactly you need to set this straight so much.. it's just a personal opinion, and I've explained why I think so once. So... if you still don't see why, I can do nothing much.
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Old 2009-10-02, 10:36   Link #5700
bladeofdarkness
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the GOD aspect of it is what i dont get
anyone can choose to act as either good or bad
what about THAT makes him anything other then human
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