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Old 2009-09-27, 14:13   Link #3521
Chadauw
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Ryukishi just used a confusing narration device to put in parallel the two times Ange denied witch, by putting after the flashback with Ange in the classroom, another flashback with Maria after little Ange denied witch on Rokkenjima.

But if I remember well, this scene explains that Maria is complaining because of what Ange said during the family conference.

But even so, it is pretty clear that one is the Big-sister-witch-Maria from Ange's imagination that she denied along with the stakes and Sakurato, and the other is the childish Maria complaining because her friend said her plush was just a plush.
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Old 2009-09-27, 15:19   Link #3522
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Concerning the Closed room circle (First twilight) of EP3:

May I ask confirmation about the status of the door leading into the courtyard from the boiler room? (I believe in EP1, such a door was mentioned.) I'd like to check something with this.
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Old 2009-09-27, 15:42   Link #3523
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Originally Posted by Vega Lyra View Post
Concerning the Closed room circle (First twilight) of EP3:

May I ask confirmation about the status of the door leading into the courtyard from the boiler room? (I believe in EP1, such a door was mentioned.) I'd like to check something with this.
That door does exist but nothing was mentioned about it during the red text battle.
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Old 2009-09-27, 15:48   Link #3524
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Old 2009-09-27, 18:22   Link #3525
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Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture View Post
I know the two were once friendly cousins when they met in real life during the conferences. However, I don't remember this being mentioned at all. As I understood it, the game never mentioned anything about the real Ange telling the real Maria when they were little girls on Rokkenjima that she denied magic. The way it seemed was as though the first time Ange denied magic was that time in the classroom, where she was denying it to the witch Maria, the Maria who had already died in the real world during the incident. It's even said pretty clearly when she first talks to Maria through the diary (by which I mean the first time we see it in the game, not the first chronological time she did it) that the Maria she's speaking to is dead in the real world. So that means this Maria she speaks to is the Maria who already died, IE, post Rokkenjima Incident.

And that scene where she denied them in the classroom was a flashback scene, so now in the present of 1998, as Ange is making her journey to Rokkenjima having made up with the Stakes and Sakutaro, she's remembering having hurt them like that in the past. But I don't remember anything being said about the time she denied magic and witches being when Ange and Maria were little girls...are you sure about this? I wrote my previous post after a few hours marathoning until that scene and I absolutely do not remember anything being said about it happening like that. I'm not saying you guys are wrong - like I said, the constant flashbacks really confused me - but I don't remember this being said anywhere. Can someone point it out clearly?

Quote:
Maria onee-chan, you're we-ird!! There is no Sakutaro-! Stuffed animals are stuffed anima-ls!

I learned from Mama that they're made of cloth and co-tton!! There's no way they can walk or ta-lk!! *giggle*giggle*, *giggle*giggle*giggle*!!!
Denying Sakutaro is like denying magic. By refusing Sakutaro's existence Ange denied magic as well. If she really acknowledge Maria as a witch she would also acknowledge the existence of Sakutaro. Maria is the witch of origin. So I don't think it is necessary to search for an explicit sentence where Ange actually said Maria is not a witch, considering she denied her power. It is implicit.

Anyway when Ange said that she hurt Maria, she referred to that event.
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Old 2009-09-27, 18:30   Link #3526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Quote:
Maria onee-chan, you're we-ird!! There is no Sakutaro-! Stuffed animals are stuffed anima-ls!

I learned from Mama that they're made of cloth and co-tton!! There's no way they can walk or ta-lk!! *giggle*giggle*, *giggle*giggle*giggle*!!!
Denying Sakutaro is like denying magic. By refusing Sakutaro's existence Ange denied magic as well. If she really acknowledge Maria as a witch she would also acknowledge the existence of Sakutaro. Anyway when Ange said that she hurt Maria, she refers to that event.
Ohhhh ... I thought those were the boys in her class ... I guess that explains it.
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Old 2009-09-27, 18:32   Link #3527
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There's only one person that can call Maria "onee-chan" ^^;;;

And you can tell from the broken way of speaking and the fact she said "I learned from mama" that this is a very young Ange.
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Old 2009-09-27, 18:35   Link #3528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There's only one person that can call Maria "onee-chan" ^^;;;

And you can tell from the broken way of speaking and the fact she said "I learned from mama" that this is a very young Ange.
Now thinking about it even 9 year old boys don't giggle. >.>
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Old 2009-09-27, 19:36   Link #3529
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I'm going to make a chronological order of the relationship Between Ange and magic, so maybe it will be clear:

- A very little Ange is introduced to the secret circle of the mariage Sorciere by Maria. It isn't clear how many are the members, however you can assume that there are at least two: Maria and "Beatrice". It isn't clear how many years Ange have been part of this circle, but this is where Ange learned about magic for the first time. It isn't clear if Ange met "Beatrice" at all at this time. She was very very little so it's possible she just forgot, or that she met "Beatrice" as her true self.

- Ange talked about magic and mariage sorciere to her mother. Kyrie, being the logical and rational type, told her little child that magic and the like do not exist. When Ange told Kyrie about Sakutaro, she was also taught that Sakutaro is just a plush. Ange, as it is common at that age, at the next family meeting used that imparted knowledge from her mother to belittle Maria's fictional world. At that time Ange was expelled from mariage sorciere.

- A long time passed with Ange never thinking about magic anymore. However her life of isolation from any human contact made her get closer to the fictional world she once refused. When she was a middle schooler Ange developed the ability to make Maria "revive" by reading her diary. This imaginary Maria kept telling Ange to remember what she taught her a long time ago. Finally Ange decides to take magic seriously once more and so Ange becomes able to summon the stakes.

- Not much later Ange receives an unbearable humiliation from her classmates. Angered Ange realizes that her "friends" can do nothing to help her. So Ange can't accept that friendship anymore, once again she denies magic. While doing so, Ange remembers that time when she denied magic as a little child during a family meeting.

- 1998. After Eva's death Ange decides to find the truth about the Rokkenjima incident. For the sake of this goal Ange tries to summon the stakes again. Ange is more mature now and rather than using magic to escape from her sad life, she tries to understand what magic really is. In the end Ange manages to understand everything about magic, and that allow her to summon the stakes, Maria and Sakutaro. However she doesn't acknowledge magic to exist in her world. Ange reached a point where she can use magic without acknowledging its existence.
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Old 2009-09-27, 21:30   Link #3530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm going to make a chronological order of the relationship Between Ange and magic, so maybe it will be clear:

- A very little Ange is introduced to the secret circle of the mariage Sorciere by Maria. It isn't clear how many are the members, however you can assume that there are at least two: Maria and "Beatrice". It isn't clear how many years Ange have been part of this circle, but this is where Ange learned about magic for the first time. It isn't clear if Ange met "Beatrice" at all at this time. She was very very little so it's possible she just forgot, or that she met "Beatrice" as her true self.

- Ange talked about magic and mariage sorciere to her mother. Kyrie, being the logical and rational type, told her little child that magic and the like do not exist. When Ange told Kyrie about Sakutaro, she was also taught that Sakutaro is just a plush. Ange, as it is common at that age, at the next family meeting used that imparted knowledge from her mother to belittle Maria's fictional world. At that time Ange was expelled from mariage sorciere.

- A long time passed with Ange never thinking about magic anymore. However her life of isolation from any human contact made her get closer to the fictional world she once refused. When she was a middle schooler Ange developed the ability to make Maria "revive" by reading her diary. This imaginary Maria kept telling Ange to remember what she taught her a long time ago. Finally Ange decides to take magic seriously once more and so Ange becomes able to summon the stakes.

- Not much later Ange receives an unbearable humiliation from her classmates. Angered Ange realizes that her "friends" can do nothing to help her. So Ange can't accept that friendship anymore, once again she denies magic. While doing so, Ange remembers that time when she denied magic as a little child during a family meeting.

- 1998. After Eva's death Ange decides to find the truth about the Rokkenjima incident. For the sake of this goal Ange tries to summon the stakes again. Ange is more mature now and rather than using magic to escape from her sad life, she tries to understand what magic really is. In the end Ange manages to understand everything about magic, and that allow her to summon the stakes, Maria and Sakutaro. However she doesn't acknowledge magic to exist in her world. Ange reached a point where she can use magic without acknowledging its existence.
Okay, seeing it like this, it makes sense now. I guess I just didn't pick up on the whole thing about her denying magic back when she was little, as well. Every time the incident was referred back to, I assumed she meant the incident in the classroom. Thanks for clearing this up. I'm now finished with EP4 as well, so I've seen Ange's story through its end and now I understand.
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Old 2009-09-30, 01:49   Link #3531
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Rewinding the clock would be similar to rewinding their minds; it's clear enough that each character has no recollection of previous games.
I question the latter part.

Spoiler for EP. 4:
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Old 2009-09-30, 10:08   Link #3532
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I question the latter part.

Spoiler for EP. 4:
Something that bothered me in that scene:

Spoiler for ep. 4:
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Old 2009-09-30, 10:30   Link #3533
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Something that bothered me in that scene:

Spoiler for ep. 4:
Spoiler for Response, Higurashi spoilers:
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Old 2009-09-30, 11:12   Link #3534
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Spoiler for Response, Higurashi spoilers:
Spoiler for response:
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Old 2009-09-30, 11:45   Link #3535
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Spoiler for Response:
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Old 2009-09-30, 11:59   Link #3536
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Spoiler for Response:

Spoiler for response:
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Old 2009-09-30, 12:02   Link #3537
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Old 2009-09-30, 17:27   Link #3538
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Wait... I can't agree with this interpretation. The reason Beatrice said that she killed people a hundred of times, is because she does that between a game and another or during the game itseld. Just think about the tea party of ep2, we know that Beatrice "squeezed" Krauss a hundred of times.

I don't think Beatrice created more games than we have seen else, why she mentions the exact number? first game, second game, third game, fourth game... there aren't other games we are not aware of.
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Old 2009-09-30, 17:30   Link #3539
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Wait... I can't agree with this interpretation. The reason Beatrice said that she killed people a hundred of times, is because she does that between a game and another or during the game itseld. Just think about the tea party of ep2, we know that Beatrice "squeezed" Krauss a hundred of times.

I don't think Beatrice created more games than we have seen else, why she mentions the exact number? first game, second game, third game, fourth game... there aren't other games we are not aware of.
That might be true for the games... but that still doesn't explain Shannon and Kanon's dialogue in EP4. It could be possible that the word "game" only refers to the worlds starting where Battler denies the witches. Though... that'd also be a little odd because I can't really imagine him sitting around and accepting the witches through repetitions or anything.
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Old 2009-09-30, 17:34   Link #3540
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You know, Beatrice was probably just exaggerating with the "hundreds of times" thing.
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