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Old 2009-09-30, 23:47   Link #2241
FateAnomaly
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You know if God appear now and talk to people, i am sure everyone will then follow him. Those ancients guys had the benefit of God talking to them but what we have are merely hearsay.
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Old 2009-09-30, 23:56   Link #2242
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
You know if God appear now and talk to people, i am sure everyone will then follow him. Those ancients guys had the benefit of God talking to them but what we have are merely hearsay.
That's what creates our good luck and bad luck. Our "test" is less severe if w/o direct appearance of God, for it originates from the understanding the we are "less-equipped". I hope many of you will realize the broad idea of "reality" and how seeing does not always constitute fact. (vice versa.)
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Old 2009-10-01, 00:14   Link #2243
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
You know if God appear now and talk to people, i am sure everyone will then follow him. Those ancients guys had the benefit of God talking to them but what we have are merely hearsay.
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
That's what creates our good luck and bad luck. Our "test" is less severe if w/o direct appearance of God, for it originates from the understanding the we are "less-equipped". I hope many of you will realize the broad idea of "reality" and how seeing does not always constitute fact. (vice versa.)
Consider though, how many of those people who said they either saw or spoke to God, were treated in those times. Many of those people were considered crazy, or at least not of sound mind, and there were even some who were outcast for making such statements. I suspect that much the same thing would happen in today's society. If someone came up to you and said that they had spoken directly with God, and he had told them all of these things, would you believe them outright? Probably not, because you had not had that direct experience for yourself.
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Old 2009-10-01, 00:37   Link #2244
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Consider though, how many of those people who said they either saw or spoke to God, were treated in those times. Many of those people were considered crazy, or at least not of sound mind, and there were even some who were outcast for making such statements. I suspect that much the same thing would happen in today's society. If someone came up to you and said that they had spoken directly with God, and he had told them all of these things, would you believe them outright? Probably not, because you had not had that direct experience for yourself.
I think the past were only minor "scientific", so people would have the bigger tendency in believing than not. Today is a different matter though.
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Old 2009-10-01, 00:51   Link #2245
Vexx
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I present Joan of Arc .... she thought God spoke to her, the authorities agreed when it was convenient and then burned her at the stake when it was not.

Later they made her a saint but fat lot of good that did her after being toasted by them.
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Old 2009-10-01, 01:19   Link #2246
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I present Joan of Arc .... she thought God spoke to her, the authorities agreed when it was convenient and then burned her at the stake when it was not.

Later they made her a saint but fat lot of good that did her after being toasted by them.
Why don't we redirect ourselves from Christianity?
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Old 2009-10-01, 01:53   Link #2247
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I was assuming (and probably shouldn't have) that, in this example, 0 is the absence of anything remotely resembling a belief structure, and 100 is utopia. The various belief structures can be numbered however you see fit, I simply chose 3 and 8 at random to illustrate my point. Please be mindful of the fact that atheism is, in itself, a non-strict belief structure, and so must fall somewhere between 0-100. You cannot just call it a negative number and say "There, see! You're wrong."
Ah. So you think agnosticism is worse than atheism, which is itself worse than religion. OK, why didn't you say so? And what's your basis for such a claim?

And considering the prevalence of religion in the world, I'd question the pertinence of putting the 0 on agnosticism, but whatever.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:01   Link #2248
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Ah. So you think agnosticism is worse than atheism, which is itself worse than religion. OK, why didn't you say so? And what's your basis for such a claim?
He's just stating the way I wanted to express the situations. To be honest, I can't find much concluding evidence to as to how one faith is greater than the other. I'm just saying that all are good, in some ways, all our bad, in some ways, and that there is one having more positives than the other--though, I don't know for sure which are which.

Yes, there is something worse than the other, but that's common worldly tendency. But my main original point was, I don't know if your faith has a greater positive than mine but I "believe" mine is greater than everything else(every other faith)----no offense, its the proper "unreasonable" idealist views of mine which includes my religion being the truest. Not saying a fact, just a belief similar to belief in God.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:12   Link #2249
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Ah. So you think agnosticism is worse than atheism, which is itself worse than religion. OK, why didn't you say so? And what's your basis for such a claim?

And considering the prevalence of religion in the world, I'd question the pertinence of putting the 0 on agnosticism, but whatever.
Why is agnosticism 0? Agnosticism, like atheism, has it's own non-strict set of beliefs, and so would fall somewhere between the 0-100. Again, the 0 is a complete absence of anything remotely resembling a belief structure. To put it bluntly; 0 is humans as hunter-gatherers, simply doing only what is absolutely necessary each day to perpetuate their survival for another day, and nothing more. No beliefs of any kind. They simply do what is necessary to survive.

Anything that you can label (Agnosticism, Atheism, Buddhism, Islam, Catholicism, etc.) has a set of beliefs that accompany it. Be they clearly defined, or open to interpretation, they still carry with them that set of beliefs.

As a side note, Atheism is an absolute non-belief in God, whereas Agnosticism is a belief in the possibility of God, should someone be able to present proof with merit. As such, Atheism would fall below Agnosticism on the 0-100 scale, according to your reasoning, as Agnosticism affords religion some territory of leniency, where Atheism does not.
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Last edited by Quzor; 2009-10-01 at 02:45.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:32   Link #2250
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To put it bluntly; 0 is humans as hunter-gatherers, simply doing only what is absolutely necessary each day to perpetuate their survival for another day, and nothing more. No beliefs of any kind. They simply do what is necessary to survive..
Wouldn't you call "hunter-gatherers" as believers of survivability?- and nothing else.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:42   Link #2251
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Wouldn't you call "hunter-gatherers" as believers of survivability?- and nothing else.
That's putting far too much thought into the term. Hunter-gatherers don't believe in surviving, they just do what is necessary to survive. There's no set of belief structures associated with being a hunter-gatherer, to which someone may align themselves. In a sense, there's no way for a person to stand up and say "I am a hunter-gatherer, and this is what I believe!" You simply hunt and gather, and live for one more day.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:58   Link #2252
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That's putting far too much thought into the term. Hunter-gatherers don't believe in surviving, they just do what is necessary to survive. There's no set of belief structures associated with being a hunter-gatherer, to which someone may align themselves. In a sense, there's no way for a person to stand up and say "I am a hunter-gatherer, and this is what I believe!" You simply hunt and gather, and live for one more day.
I understand that this is a matter human instinct. But perhaps there are those, within a hunter-gatherer society, that do not "believe" in survivability. Ludicrous, it seems yeah? But still...
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Old 2009-10-01, 03:06   Link #2253
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I understand that this is a matter human instinct. But perhaps there are those, within a hunter-gatherer society, that do not "believe" in survivability. Ludicrous, it seems yeah? But still...
Unfortunately, if you do not believe in survivability, then you are dead. In a hunter-gatherer society, those who do not work do not reap the benefits of that work.

I recall a documentary I saw a few years ago, on a pack of hyenas being tracked by a team of scientists. This particular pack was not so large, a mere 4 animals. One of them, a female, had asserted dominance over the rest. She would be vicious and harmful to the other three. When they would go out hunting, she would sit in the background, waiting for the others to bring back the catch. Upon returning, she would scare the other three away until she had eaten her fill, then leave the scraps for them. This went on for about two weeks, until the other 3 hyenas revolted, practically killed the aggressive female, and left her to die. Those three headed off to join another pack of hyenas, while the aggressive female was left alone with no way to defend herself, or perpetuate her survival (she had massive external injuries, and sufficient internal bleeding to eventually cause her death). She did no work, she was inevitably excluded from the reward.

So it goes with a hunter-gatherer society. You don't want to survive, fine. You don't get to have any of the necessities that would be required to continue your survival. Belief, again, does not factor in to it.
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Old 2009-10-01, 03:15   Link #2254
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Unfortunately, if you do not believe in survivability, then you are dead. In a hunter-gatherer society, those who do not work do not reap the benefits of that work.

So it goes with a hunter-gatherer society. You don't want to survive, fine. You don't get to have any of the necessities that would be required to continue your survival. Belief, again, does not factor in to it.
What about belief in "reality"? I may be lacking in update so I'll ask, has "reality" been proven?
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Old 2009-10-01, 03:26   Link #2255
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What about belief in "reality"? I may be lacking in update so I'll ask, has "reality" been proven?
I...umm...

I don't really know how to answer that. Reality is what we live in on a daily basis. When you open your door and walk outside in the morning, when you eat breakfast, lunch and dinner, when you shower and get ready for work, when you're at work; it's all reality.

If you want to get into a philosophical discussion about the foundation of reality versus the reality of dreams, or something of the like, that's a completely separate issue. Again, it has no bearing on the example at hand.
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Old 2009-10-01, 03:31   Link #2256
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I...umm...

I don't really know how to answer that. Reality is what we live in on a daily basis. When you open your door and walk outside in the morning, when you eat breakfast, lunch and dinner, when you shower and get ready for work, when you're at work; it's all reality.
But its not necessarily the true reality, is it? How we feel, see, hear, and other senses could all but be an illusion.


Quote:
If you want to get into a philosophical discussion about the foundation of reality versus the reality of dreams, or something of the like, that's a completely separate issue. Again, it has no bearing on the example at hand.
No, just *this* reality.
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Old 2009-10-01, 03:48   Link #2257
Quzor
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But its not necessarily the true reality, is it? How we feel, see, hear, and other senses could all but be an illusion.
Cogito Ergo Sum. I think therefor I am. If you have ability to think, you exist. If you exist, you exist in reality. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
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Old 2009-10-01, 04:04   Link #2258
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Cogito Ergo Sum. I think therefor I am. If you have ability to think, you exist. If you exist, you exist in reality. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
I understand that the "self" is proven but how does this provide evidence for "reality"? Self-existence is an axiom but it does not "describe" true reality, or does it? Having Self-existence does not remove a "breach" of "reality", or does it?

How is perception reality until proven otherwise?
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Old 2009-10-01, 04:15   Link #2259
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Ok, some thought on the previous page.

About free will... it can never be entirely free. You need to choose between a certain number of choices. You can't do anything you want and therefore you don't have infinite possibilities to do something. If you are rich, fanatized or very aware of a subject you can have a lot more options but still not infinite. Also, even choosing the best of all options you have before you, you still are not exactly free. You still choose based on your needs and desires. You are a slave to your needs that dictate your course. So, no free will not even there.

By the way, a Hindu philosopher had a great catchphrase about this.
"There is not such thing as free will. It is made of two words that contradict one another".
...And in a way he is damn right. If you want something you are not really free.

As for reality... since we do not have linked minds, there is no way to know if each one perceives reality in a different manner. Also, our senses are generally very weak as we see very few colors and hear very few sounds of the spectrum. It has to do with the frequency and the wave length of light and sound waves.
For example, when we see the rainbow, we only see the visible colors to us. A cat would see a lot more colors and a lot bigger rainbow. A being with perfect eyesight would not see an ark. He would see a full circle.
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Old 2009-10-01, 04:19   Link #2260
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You are a slave to your needs that dictate your course.
But you do have the choice to ignore needs and the pain resulted from it. Perhaps there are examples of such individuals?
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